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I am trying to figure out the highest econ build for zerg (no zerglings/sunken).. regardless of viability. So a few questions:
Is 12 hatch really higher econ? I imagine that if you focus on drones first you could get better econ.
Also isn't 10 hatch (extractor trick) safer then 9 hatch (if not taking expo) in that you should be able to get your pool up faster. Canceling drone only costs like 12 minerals and the fact that you will have 10 mining before hatch is up should get you a faster pool, right?
Basically, I'm hoping to apply this to 2v2 (or 3v3 hunters hehe), with the option of getting faster sunken or mass lings.
To make it more visible. Here is some research I did:
10 hatch (extractor trick twice, before hatch and after pool, before overlord)
Pool comes up at 2:36
at 2:50 mark 246 minerals and 15 drones.
12 hatch
Pool comes up at 2:51
at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
9 hatch:
Pool comes up at 2:37.
at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.
10hatch vs 9 hatch.
Same time pool but slightly more minerals.
10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
Summary, seems like 10 hatch should almost always be better then 9 hatch. 12 hatch is of course the better build in high level 1v1, but for low level play 10 hatch imo is unconventional and still strong. I think its probably much more useful in 2v2, 3v3 for its flexibility.
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Calgary25980 Posts
It's times like this I wonder why people don't test the stuff themselves rather than asking. You know what you want to test, why don't you test it and then pass the information on here? It's like a 15 minute process to determine which one gives you the best economy.
Yes, twelve hatch gives you the best econ since it is an ideal balanced between larvae and workers. The point of 9 hatch is sunkens, which relies on the hatchery finishing, which makes the pool timing inconsequential.
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Thanks chill and I just tested it myself (before you suggested I test it). Here are my results.
10 hatch:
Pool comes up at 2:34
at 2:50 mark 272 minerals and 14 drones.
12 hatch
Pool comes up at 2:51
at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
9 hatch:
Pool comes up at 2:37.
at 2:50 mark: 15 drones 192 minerals.
10hatch vs 9 hatch.
Soooo, in 10 hatch your larvae count is slightly off vs 9 hatch since you have 3 larvae for longer (9 hatch has 3 larvae for a short while too). However, overall you get almost a 100 more minerals and barely faster pool timing.
10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
Summary, seems like 10 hatch should almost always be better then 9 hatch. 12 hatch is of course the better build in high level 1v1, but for low level play 10 hatch imo is unconventional and still strong. I think its probably much more useful in 2v2, 3v3 for its flexibility.
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At one point I tested (after overlord!) 10hat vs 11hat vs 12hat, all followed by 11pool and 11gas. I did a few trials and took best times.
What I found was start times were
10hat / 11hat / 12hat
Hatchery timing: 1:35 / 1:39 / 1:45
Pool: 2:06 / 2:03 / 2:02
Gas (rough): 2:17 / 2:12 / 2:14 (not quite confident in the gas numbers since I didn't record them enough)
11hat in particular looks pretty nice because you get the hatchery up significantly faster than 12hat and you have enough drones to get pretty much the same pool timing. After building the gas, I found 12hat had about a 16 mineral advantage on 11hat, which isn't much. I had been thinking about posting a thread asking why people prefer 12hat over 11hat but I never got around to it.
Edit:
I also experimented with a extractor trick -> 10hat -> 11pool build. I don't trust my numbers as much on this because I think it's just from a single trial (and might be on a different map than the earlier numbers), but for what it's worth, I found:
10hat / 12hat
Hatchery timing: 1:26 / 1:44
Pool: 2:05 / 2:01
3rd Hatch: 2:49 / 2:43
So the 10hat hurts the pool timing unless you build the pool on earlier supply, and the reduced mineral count hurts your 3rd hat timing a little. On the other hand, the 2nd hat is up very fast.
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this is interesting but won't change my game.
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On November 28 2009 06:16 ultramagnetics wrote:
Thanks chill and I just tested it myself (before you suggested I test it). Here are my results.
10 hatch:
Pool comes up at 2:34
at 2:50 mark 272 minerals and 14 drones.
12 hatch
Pool comes up at 2:51
at 2:51 mark: 15 drones 392 minerals. Note: the drone advantage is going to disappear since, the hatchery is not yet up and running.
...
10 hatch vs 12 hatch. You are behind over 100 minerals, but your larvae count will soon overcome 12 hatch's. Also you have a decently faster pool which can make a big difference in such a late-pool build.
I don't think the drone advantage is going to disappear because you're obviously going to be making lings. Otherwise, what is the point in getting a 15 second faster pool? Also, 12 hatch has more drones running for a longer period of time, which explains the 120 mineral advantage it gets over 10 hatch--120 minerals is 15 drone cycles, WAY too much for the 10 hatch to catch up on.
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You are doing 10 hatch correctly?
It involves doing the extractor trick TWICE. The first time is before you place the hatchery. The second is after you place the pool (which brings you to 8/9, then drone for 9/9, extractor trick for 10/9, then overlord). The overlord will pop and you'll have 3 larvae by the time the pool finishes.
So I'm not sure why you say 9 hatch has more drones than 10 hatch at a certain minute marker.
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Just for the record...
I do not focus on economy on 2v2. I get map control with fast speedlings (9 pool speed or overpool speed, sometimes 11 pool speed when i am on python or some map like that with closer opossing z and scout overpool)
I let my p partner focus on economy and tech and i give him support, then with his superior economy and tech I safe expand.
btw i am c/c+ 2v2 player.-
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On November 28 2009 10:18 coltrane wrote:
Just for the record...
I do not focus on economy on 2v2. I get map control with fast speedlings (9 pool speed or overpool speed, sometimes 11 pool speed when i am on python or some map like that with closer opossing z and scout overpool)
I let my p partner focus on economy and tech and i give him support, then with his superior economy and tech I safe expand.
btw i am c/c+ 2v2 player.-
What build would you choose on a map like God's Garden or any with a significantly long rush distance? (I guess katrina is the only one I can think of right now)
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They sound like bgh builds.
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I used to do 10hatch on bluestorm, it was pretty good for the reason that you get to decide to use the larva for drones and play econ or have a really strong zergling rush~
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Okay, this is what I found while experimenting with 9 hatch:
Drones to 9
9 hatch
8 drone
9 overlord
9 pool
Drone to 11
11 Extractor*
@100% Extractor - 3 drones on it*,
@100% Pool - 8 Lings (one additional larvae will appear at the second hatchery in a matter of seconds, can be used for Lings or a Drone). **
* - If you want to. Against Protoss, going for an earlier 3rd hatch may be more beneficial than earlier gas. But it still leaves you with enough minerals to pump lings constantly out of the 2 hatcheries against any kind of rush, as well as the ability to get a quick lair or ling speed or hydra den.
** - If you don't think anything is coming, you can make drones instead of lings. But saving the larvae is definitely useful, especially if they are already scouting you, you can trick them into thinking you are making zerglings.
The timing for this is roughly as follows:
Against a non-proxy 2 gate, your 8 lings will pop right when the first zealot and few probes arrive. Against a proxy, you are a little late, but not by that much.
Against a non-proxy 8 rax into bunker rush, your 8 lings will pop just as the second marine gets to your base. The bunker finishes in time to get the marine in it, but only 2 marines against 10 lings, it's an easy win. Against a proxy, it's a little tougher. But far from impossible. A sunken can be placed to ensure that you can kill the bunker, since the hatchery finishes earlier than a 12 hatch.
So, as it stands, it seems to be a really solid counter to any early rush strategies, and it does not require a lot of micro. It can transition into any type of 2 hatch all-in, and a 3rd hatch can be placed pretty quickly if you start pumping drones instead of lings, meaning any timings for 3 hatch build orders will not be affected much either.
All-in-all, against P or T, I like this opening. I used to open 9 pool all the time, because I didn't like losing to early rushes. Then I transitioned into overpool. Now, I'm going to start using this more often. It's not as solid as 12 hatch, in economic terms, but I definitely will take a slight hit to my economy, as long as I am safe from early rushes.
It worked well against Z when my opponent went for anything other than a very early pool. This worked out decent against a 9 pool, however, it is very difficult to fight off those lings initially. It also was hurt against a 12 hatch, however, a single sunken, plus a few lings guarding your natural, lets you pump a few drones to catch up, and your gas comes before theirs, so you can get the tech out slightly quicker. It's for these reasons that I do not suggest opening like this against Z. 9 hatch in-base may be doable against an early pool though.
I'm going to keep experimenting with this, whenever I get the chance to play.
TL;DR - 9 hatch is very effective at fighting off early rushes of T or P, without damaging your economy much.
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agree with most of what you said. I like 9/10 hatch since I am off-race with zerg and its fun to play. I feel strong playing with this 1 build that is pretty versatile. You should try doing 10-hatch though. it gives you an advantage over 9hatch in basically every aspect. Faster everything and more minerals. Do refinery trick before hatch and that's a 10 hatch
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I'm assuming you are playing 2v2.
It really depends on what you want to do. If you are aiming for map control, a quick break/kill, then 10 h is best. The 2nd hat pops much faster than the 12hat build and sometimes those quick 2 or 4 lings are all the difference.
However, if you're aiming for an eco build, obv 12 h is the way to go.
[Btw, 10h only requires 1 ext trick...]
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There are multiple 10hatch builds. (Reminder for those who missed it.)
10hatch
10overlord
10pool
and
10overlord
10hatch
whatever pool
are the highest econ variants, afaik. They're not rush builds, but the hope is that the extra larva and earlier creep from the earlier second hatchery can be put to good use and will make you safer than 12hatch against an early rush.
The safest version is 10hatch, 9pool, 9overlord, extractor trick for 10th drone. You have money to spare, unlike the gas versions of the build, and your pool is up slightly after a 12pool. The most aggressive version is 10hatch followed by a normal 9pool - delay some zerglings for faster speed, and you have a ridiculous speedling timing attack.
Hmm... I'm curious about something. Would 10overlord 10pool make sense as an opening?
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If you 10overlord, wouldn't you not have enough minerals to make a hatch before the overlord pops anyway?
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10 overlord doesn't make sense to me s:
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in my testings 12 hatch's hatch compared to 10 hatch's hatch comes 20 seconds ealier and pool comes 19-20 seconds ealier. When you reach 27 supply with 12 hatch 3 seconds faster than with 10 hatch. Personaly, I always open 10 hatch in ZvP because it's very safe build which gives you similar economy to 12 hatch. Also, any 2 gate action is countered ridiculously easy, which I had with a lot problems with. Anyway, it's only me, I always use non-standart builds so I feel comfortable with it, others may not :}.
P.s. I've recently wrote the 10 hatch variation im using, if anyone is intrested:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/10_hatch
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9/10 hatch is good if you don't want the probe to annoy you as much when you make your hatch and you aren't confident in your probe chasing skill.
and i don't see any logical reason for a 10 overlord
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some progamer used 10 overlord on outsider a few days ago. The reason for doing so is that if P scouts you first he can block a 12 hatch, but if you hide your drone and make hatch at 10 then it will be down before P can get his probe back to your nat after scouting your main (if he pylon scouted), and your econ is pretty much the same. This also allows you to get your sunkens started a little faster vs a 2 gate, but at the cost of your pool being a few seconds later. The faster sunkens should allow you to start 2 sunkens just moments before the first zealot reaches your nat to try and block it on outsider (don't know about other maps), but then if P goes 1 gate tech his zealot will be in your mineral line for a few extra seconds before your zerglings pop. Kind of hit or miss and doesn't really make much of a difference...
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EPT
