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The plan is to scout the fast gas and do a Day9 build order vs mech is you've listened
to his podcast stopping mech.
http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/zatic/Day[9]0001-StoppingMech.mp3
But the catch is, after you've taken your 2nd expo and you've gotten your lair, instead of going spire you get a queen's nest, and dual or single evo chambers.
then when nest pops you grab up as many queens as possible, I feel like it should be possible to get 10-12 but I always end up with 6-8. The trick is probably to make a trigger like the spire trigger but instead of saving up for muta it's queens.
So now you have 10 queens or so sitting in the corner of the map or some obscure place.
Now you grab +1 for ranged attack and carapace.
Next step, pump hydra until queens have 150 mana and of course research broodling at the appropriate time.
So now you have 3-4 control groups of hydra or more if you have a raging eco and the hydra mass is continuing to grow since all you have to do is make drones at expos and hydra everywhere else.
At this point the terran will already have begun his push or is still turtling.
Critical point-if terran pushed before your queens would have 150 when he gets to your nat or expo, you must harass the ball, stalling for time and forcing him to siege and unsiege all the way there. Parasiting the ball is critical at this point because it will help your harass and stall by an order of magnitude.
In this way you will certainly have enough energy by the time he gets there, and even if you don't, fine, you lose that nat or expo. He's about to lose everything.
So now the moment of moments. You have the parasite no matter how many times you had to do it for it to stick. You clone the broodlings, and while the queens are coming to drop the bomb the hydras are also on the way abusing surface area to the maximum.
Point of interest-You must clone the broodlings. hitting the tanks one at a time is fail as the broodlings vanish instantly. If you clone, 3 things happen. Any mines pop and can do massive damage to the ball. The tanks shoot themselves and splash the ball. The ball is distracted and must deal with the broodlings as your hydras are dancing in and positioning themselves.
Ideally, you should have 1 queen for each tank and more. the tanks die. The goliaths die.
You go to his nat and send some hydra to the expo if he has one. You engage the goliaths, and brood the new tanks. You damage the command center. You infest it.
The reason you can do this I propose is that as Day9 points out mech is weak in the mid game which buys you time to make queens before massing hydra.
This strategy and replay are not perfect and I've make a lot of mistakes in both but it is something you might try and give me feedback on.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22770
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makes me really wanna try this since i hate mech 
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watch Zero vs Skyhigh from Blizzcon. He did something like this on Collosseum. I watched it live. With the rest of TL ^_^
the reason it sux, is because Broodling takes SOOOO LOOOONG to save mana for.
the reason it's awesome, is because it one shots tanks, and the range is ridic.
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150 is ALOT of energy, try this. You will be surprised how freaking long the cooldown is. I don't think any build based on expecting to be able to SB all a mech build's tanks is a good idea.
I'f you want to use Queen's I think ensnaring SK/bio Terran and raping the slow MnM's/vessels with lurkers and scourge is a much better plan. The energy costs are much more reasonable, and the effect is dramatic (negating stim+ inability to escape from lurkers/scourge).
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What keeps mech in his base while you wait for your queens to gain energy? I think it's more reasonable to make 4-5 queens and put the rest in ling/hydra hoping you can delay him long enough for ensnare. Even then, you don't force him to get goliaths at all at that point (since he's probably scanned you got a queen's nest instead of a spire) which makes him get a much more efficient and strong Tank/Vulture army to combat your ling/hydra, not to mention he can spend more gas on tanks since goliaths won't be taking up gas anymore, and you'll need faster overlord speed since he'll undoubtedly mine everything up.
Except I guess you're getting Broodling. Which means I don't know what you're delaying the Terran mech with, besides him thinking there should be muta's if he didn't scout (ie you're hoping he's just really bad).
All in all, I think that hinging your whole strategy on one big broodling attack that has to win you the game (it's gonna be another 3 minutes before you have energy again) is maybe cool looking for 30 seconds, but is ultimately poor and needlessly risky play.
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The main issue I see here is the tank count. In ZvT vs mech your mutas force a heavier Goliath count which make the Tank count smaller, however without a Muta presence the Terran can make more tanks and less Goliaths which would essentially negate the broodlings you have been waiting for and end up dealing with a larger vulture count and equal tanks vs your now all hydra army.
But it could be cute for breaking a choke on a Terran whose being a turtling dick, or in conjunction with a drop to kill the tanks he moves up into his base. But I imagine it would only really be effective if you slowed his ability to get gas or were somehow significantly ahead for other reasons.
aka, abuse lower players with it.
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On October 21 2009 06:58 Chef wrote:
What keeps mech in his base while you wait for your queens to gain energy? I think it's more reasonable to make 4-5 queens and put the rest in ling/hydra hoping you can delay him long enough for ensnare. Even then, you don't force him to get goliaths at all at that point (since he's probably scanned you got a queen's nest instead of a spire) which makes him get a much more efficient and strong Tank/Vulture army to combat your ling/hydra, not to mention he can spend more gas on tanks since goliaths won't be taking up gas anymore, and you'll need faster overlord speed since he'll undoubtedly mine everything up.
Except I guess you're getting Broodling. Which means I don't know what you're delaying the Terran mech with, besides him thinking there should be muta's if he didn't scout (ie you're hoping he's just really bad).
All in all, I think that hinging your whole strategy on one big broodling attack that has to win you the game (it's gonna be another 3 minutes before you have energy again) is maybe cool looking for 30 seconds, but is ultimately poor and needlessly risky play.
What you're saying is that terran can adapt to this strategy. True. The thing is that you're assuming this build cannot adapt.
If terran tries to push with pure tank vulture it is not diffictult to switch to muta since you already have the lair. Then with muta queen
you own tank vulture.
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If you clone the broodlings goliaths might kill one or two before the queens cast but it doesn't matter because the queens are stacked they all cast at the same time, meaning you still kill a large number of tanks. You also clone from the side that there are least goliaths on. ex. If he is sitting in the nat with goliaths north of tanks at the 6 oclock position on python, you bring your queens to the bottom right corner and then clone.
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Wouldnt a good Terran player scout you're queens and shift to more Gol or maybe valk?
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Ensnare doesn't effect the attack rate of Goliaths. Only the movement rate. Broodlings cost too much energy and resources and time to be used as a counter timing push.
Broodling might be effect vs players who turtle while you are on 10 bases, but even then mass gardians would be better.
(I think if you incorporate some way to play normally with mass expanding, and incorporate 2-3 queens into your normal muta switch timing would be good for sniping command centers and further bottling terran up. Also ensnaring the ball to "slow it down" while you get a few more production rounds out might be good.)
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On October 21 2009 06:44 sob3k wrote:
150 is ALOT of energy, try this. You will be surprised how freaking long the cooldown is. I don't think any build based on expecting to be able to SB all a mech build's tanks is a good idea.
To add onto this, assuming you have the queens to match his tanks with all the energy at the correct amount you would also need to micro them and individually snipe each tank, and get out of Goliath range before the queen dies. and if you miss a broodling or 3 your in trouble. It would deal a LOT with luck of him having bad unit positioning and you perfectly executing your attack when it happens.
If you want to use Queen's I think ensnaring SK/bio Terran and raping the slow MnM's/vessels with lurkers and scourge is a much better plan. The energy costs are much more reasonable, and the effect is dramatic (negating stim+ inability to escape from lurkers/scourge).
I 100% agree with this and it requires only 2-3 queens to be used effectively, and the spell is instantly cast.
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[QUOTE]On October 21 2009 07:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 21 2009 06:44 sob3k wrote:
150 is ALOT of energy, try this. You will be surprised how freaking long the cooldown is. I don't think any build based on expecting to be able to SB all a mech build's tanks is a good idea./[quote]
To add onto this, assuming you have the queens to match his tanks with all the energy at the correct amount you would also need to micro them and individually snipe each tank, and get out of Goliath range before the queen dies. and if you miss a broodling or 3 your in trouble. It would deal a LOT with luck of him having bad unit positioning and you perfectly executing your attack when it happens.
[quote]If you want to use Queen's I think ensnaring SK/bio Terran and raping the slow MnM's/vessels with lurkers and scourge is a much better plan. The energy costs are much more reasonable, and the effect is dramatic (negating stim+ inability to escape from lurkers/scourge).[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with this and it requires only 2-3 queens to be used effectively, and the spell is instantly cast.[/QUOTE]
If you click directly on a unit (and the unit is still alive when the ability is cast) the spell will follow the unit and never miss. Just another Plus. (Occasionally if the queen dies the moment it casts the spell disintegrates tho)
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[QUOTE]On October 21 2009 07:54 Another_Pro wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 21 2009 07:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 21 2009 06:44 sob3k wrote:
150 is ALOT of energy, try this. You will be surprised how freaking long the cooldown is. I don't think any build based on expecting to be able to SB all a mech build's tanks is a good idea./[quote]
To add onto this, assuming you have the queens to match his tanks with all the energy at the correct amount you would also need to micro them and individually snipe each tank, and get out of Goliath range before the queen dies. and if you miss a broodling or 3 your in trouble. It would deal a LOT with luck of him having bad unit positioning and you perfectly executing your attack when it happens.
[quote]If you want to use Queen's I think ensnaring SK/bio Terran and raping the slow MnM's/vessels with lurkers and scourge is a much better plan. The energy costs are much more reasonable, and the effect is dramatic (negating stim+ inability to escape from lurkers/scourge).[/QUOTE]
I 100% agree with this and it requires only 2-3 queens to be used effectively, and the spell is instantly cast.[/QUOTE]
If you click directly on a unit (and the unit is still alive when the ability is cast) the spell will follow the unit and never miss. Just another Plus. (Occasionally if the queen dies the moment it casts the spell disintegrates tho)[/QUOTE]
You don't have to micro them individually because you are cloning. You don't miss any because you have parasite. Even if everyone of your queens die it is still cost effective as tanks cost more than queens and it leaves their goliath's to perish fighting pure hydra. Though as I said if you clone from the correct angle you will only lose a few.
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On October 21 2009 07:38 DyEnasTy wrote:
Wouldnt a good Terran player scout you're queens and shift to more Gol or maybe valk?
He could shift like that, yeah, but you could counter-shift by making more hydra to compensate as that means he will have less tanks
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Seems like one of the few builds involving queens that could actually work. I'm gonna try this later.
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This strategy sounds good in theory against a terran who actually tries to push, but the few times I tried it T just did the map split on destination where they max on tanks+vessels with a million turrets. With all the turrets and vessels I was lucky if I got off 1:1 queen to tank exchanges when trying to defend the cliff expos. And monitoring all of the queen's energy and brooding and making more queens just took way too much multitask when all T had to do was constantly replenish its tank chain to replace the brooded tanks. It would probably work a lot better on pretty much any other map, but now I almost never see T go mech over valkonic or bio on any map except destination...
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On October 21 2009 08:10 musashi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2009 07:54 Another_Pro wrote:On October 21 2009 07:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On October 21 2009 06:44 sob3k wrote:
150 is ALOT of energy, try this. You will be surprised how freaking long the cooldown is. I don't think any build based on expecting to be able to SB all a mech build's tanks is a good idea. To add onto this, assuming you have the queens to match his tanks with all the energy at the correct amount you would also need to micro them and individually snipe each tank, and get out of Goliath range before the queen dies. and if you miss a broodling or 3 your in trouble. It would deal a LOT with luck of him having bad unit positioning and you perfectly executing your attack when it happens. If you want to use Queen's I think ensnaring SK/bio Terran and raping the slow MnM's/vessels with lurkers and scourge is a much better plan. The energy costs are much more reasonable, and the effect is dramatic (negating stim+ inability to escape from lurkers/scourge). I 100% agree with this and it requires only 2-3 queens to be used effectively, and the spell is instantly cast. If you click directly on a unit (and the unit is still alive when the ability is cast) the spell will follow the unit and never miss. Just another Plus. (Occasionally if the queen dies the moment it casts the spell disintegrates tho) You don't have to micro them individually because you are cloning. You don't miss any because you have parasite. Even if everyone of your queens die it is still cost effective as tanks cost more than queens and it leaves their goliath's to perish fighting pure hydra. Though as I said if you clone from the correct angle you will only lose a few.
Cost and time are different. Cost wise, yes queens are better than a tank, but you also have to wait over a minute for the queen to have enough energy to POTENTIALLY be cost effective against a tank, but then we come back to a queen dying before it gets off its parasite.
Cloning 6+ queens requires the perfect information of his placement and still requires you to somehow not lose a few of them to goliaths because their tank count will STILL be much higher than it would have been if the Terran had seen a muta threat and upped his Goliath count and if you parasite you just put 1 broodling back around a minute.
Keep in mind that cloning also has to be done while flanking with your army properly. I won't mention macroing because usually I will have upwards of 8 hatcheries and 5 bases so I can respawn an army almost instantly.
Edit: and to fix any quoting issues in above post, my first /quote has the / outside of the bracket, so just fix it and the whole quote fixes.
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The problem with mass queen builds is that once they become popular, it doesn't really take much for T to send a few rines to the corners of the map or P to send a sair or obs there. Then once the T finds them he can irradiate the hell out of them. Irradiating queens costs the Z significantly more than irradiating, say, defilers, because all that time spent waiting for energy is wasted.
There was a game, ZvT on Destination, I completely forget the players but, the Z went pretty much hydra/queen, made a ton of queens to try and broodling tanks while pushing with hydras. The T just irradiated the crap out of them while the Z was waiting for energy and left the Z with nothing.
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What you're saying is that terran can adapt to this strategy. True. The thing is that you're assuming this build cannot adapt.
If terran tries to push with pure tank vulture it is not diffictult to switch to muta since you already have the lair. Then with muta queen
you own tank vulture.
I'm saying your build sucks, and these are the holes. You're not going to be able to do an effective muta switch in the middle of a Terran push, especially if you haven't even built your spire up, and you're massing hydra/ling just to keep from dying in the next minute. You're not going to have the resources to suddenly build the 12 or so muta you need to keep your nat from being run over, and when you switch to muta, Terr's economy is gonna be stronger than yours, enough so that you won't be able to make enough muta.
StarCraft has certain timings you need to be aware of. If you make 9 Queens instead of 9 muta, you're gonna have a hell of a time stopping his push. You're getting queens for the sake of getting queens instead of trying to win.
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EPT
