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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 23 2009 22:46 koreasilver wrote:
Chill said something like this last night on his stream before he logged off.
"Lower level players focus too much on finesse when the most important thing into becoming a better player is learning how to just make a lot of shit."
So true
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On September 23 2009 22:46 koreasilver wrote:
Chill said something like this last night on his stream before he logged off.
"Lower level players focus too much on finesse when the most important thing into becoming a better player is learning how to just make a lot of shit."
I wish he (and a lot of other streamers) would make use of the on-demand part and have livestream record their stuff! :o
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In both the reps you uploaded you have around 40% redundancy according to bwrepinfo which is actually pretty high, which means you do spam. Try playing a bit slower but more efficiently, not only will you be able to perform the same tasks, but you will also have more time to focus on decision making and thus having a more solid gameplay overall.
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Good advice. Don't worry about apm. If you know what your doing through experience then you will want to do those things faster aka supplys, production buildings, macro, and your apm will naturally rise. You have to try to outdo your opponent though you cant just chill on a plateau.
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On September 23 2009 23:08 jhNz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2009 21:37 JMave wrote:On September 23 2009 21:13 Dfgj wrote:
Third game thoughts:
You cut probes pretty early. Make your pylons earlier and keep probe/goon production up.
Your build isn't very good. You made an extremely early robo, but by 7~ minutes you had 1 reaver/shuttle and about 7 goons, with under 60 supply. You can have 10g/2z and 2 reavers in a shuttle pushing out at 8 minutes. Given that you weren't really maximizing 2 gates, a third was unnecessary.
Overall: refine your BO and macro as much as possible.
I adapted this build from Bisu in the IEF tournament game 3. I always saw him go this build so I followed him. Isn't the build correct? Or am I wrong? in my opinion copying build orders from pros is the wrong way to become any better. it's like learning a song by heart to play it on the piano without knowing the instrument. you can learn which keys you have to push in a which order that the you hear the song. the song might sound good but as soon someone comes over and says "hey play a different song" you're screwed. because you learned to play the song and not to play the instrument. start learning the instrument instead. this applies to broodwar as well. if you only copy a bo you might snatch some wins with it. but as soon as something goes a different way than the bo is useful for, you lose. i haven't watched the rep though. this is just a reply to this quote.
What are you trying to say with this post? Don't use a build order and just wing it based on feel? This is absolutely dreadful advice. One of the easiest ways to see and feel real improvement in your game is to find a solid build order that goes all the way up until your first push or so and working on that. Starcraft is a solved game and there is a reason the standard builds are the standard. Learn them well because they develop your understanding of the game and are adaptable to nearly every situation you'll encounter.
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Germany2762 Posts
On September 23 2009 23:36 Tropics wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2009 23:08 jhNz wrote:On September 23 2009 21:37 JMave wrote:On September 23 2009 21:13 Dfgj wrote:
Third game thoughts:
You cut probes pretty early. Make your pylons earlier and keep probe/goon production up.
Your build isn't very good. You made an extremely early robo, but by 7~ minutes you had 1 reaver/shuttle and about 7 goons, with under 60 supply. You can have 10g/2z and 2 reavers in a shuttle pushing out at 8 minutes. Given that you weren't really maximizing 2 gates, a third was unnecessary.
Overall: refine your BO and macro as much as possible.
I adapted this build from Bisu in the IEF tournament game 3. I always saw him go this build so I followed him. Isn't the build correct? Or am I wrong? in my opinion copying build orders from pros is the wrong way to become any better. it's like learning a song by heart to play it on the piano without knowing the instrument. you can learn which keys you have to push in a which order that the you hear the song. the song might sound good but as soon someone comes over and says "hey play a different song" you're screwed. because you learned to play the song and not to play the instrument. start learning the instrument instead. this applies to broodwar as well. if you only copy a bo you might snatch some wins with it. but as soon as something goes a different way than the bo is useful for, you lose. i haven't watched the rep though. this is just a reply to this quote. What are you trying to say with this post? Don't use a build order and just wing it based on feel? This is absolutely dreadful advice. One of the easiest ways to see and feel real improvement in your game is to find a solid build order that goes all the way up until your first push or so and working on that. Starcraft is a solved game and there is a reason the standard builds are the standard. Learn them well because they develop your understanding of the game and are adaptable to nearly every situation you'll encounter.
i don't want to say that BOs are bad and you're completely right with your post 
i just say that it is wrong to copy builds without thinking about them. you have to understand why you are doing certain elements of a build. why am i producing this zealot at this specific time, what is the purpose of it? a lot of players - especially new ones - just read the BO, do exactly what it says but they have no idea why they're doing it. and this leads to what i'm saying in the last sentence of my post. if the opponent plays something non-standard they lose because they know the bo without understanding it really.
i agree with you though. it is important to have a good build. but at some point the bo itself wont win you games (i'm not talking about zvz or pvp ^^)
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On September 23 2009 23:30 kemoryan wrote:
In both the reps you uploaded you have around 40% redundancy according to bwrepinfo which is actually pretty high, which means you do spam. Try playing a bit slower but more efficiently, not only will you be able to perform the same tasks, but you will also have more time to focus on decision making and thus having a more solid gameplay overall.
Hmm okay. I'll try to tone down on the speed. I guess its just a complete habit that I spam so much till its like in me and I don't even notice that its spam.
For most part of PvZ, I usually feel lost when things go mid game.
I have some questions that I would want to ask.
Firstly if I scout a 12 hatch by zerg, do I cut probes and get my nex up asap? By the time I scout a 12 hatch on a 2 player map, I would have around 12 supply with my second probe at nat getting ready to plant the forge. Or is it more worth while to get like 14 supply then plant the nex?
After the early game phase when my nat eco and tech have kicked in, what is my next vital objective? This is assuming that everything went standard, no all-ins.
What is the timing that I need to get my third? I usually have immense difficulty securing my third early due to either mutas or an attack at it.
Overall, I just find my play really messy. I get lost when I play so often. Damn.
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Macro, don't EVER get supply cockblocked, refine build orders and learn to harass constantly using your APM if it's legit APM and not spam.
As simple as it looks, these will get you to C- ez
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On September 24 2009 00:11 JMave wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2009 23:30 kemoryan wrote:
In both the reps you uploaded you have around 40% redundancy according to bwrepinfo which is actually pretty high, which means you do spam. Try playing a bit slower but more efficiently, not only will you be able to perform the same tasks, but you will also have more time to focus on decision making and thus having a more solid gameplay overall. Hmm okay. I'll try to tone down on the speed. I guess its just a complete habit that I spam so much till its like in me and I don't even notice that its spam. For most part of PvZ, I usually feel lost when things go mid game. I have some questions that I would want to ask. Firstly if I scout a 12 hatch by zerg, do I cut probes and get my nex up asap? By the time I scout a 12 hatch on a 2 player map, I would have around 12 supply with my second probe at nat getting ready to plant the forge. Or is it more worth while to get like 14 supply then plant the nex? After the early game phase when my nat eco and tech have kicked in, what is my next vital objective? This is assuming that everything went standard, no all-ins. What is the timing that I need to get my third? I usually have immense difficulty securing my third early due to either mutas or an attack at it. Overall, I just find my play really messy. I get lost when I play so often. Damn.
Again, D+/C- opinions here so maybe not the best, but I'll mention what I try to do at least:
If you scout 12 hatch and don't have the forge down, nex asap (I believe 13 nex 13 forge would be appropriate). I'm really not sure here though, as I tend to forge earlier in case of cheese.
The midgame depends on your build. From what I saw in your second replay, you weren't doing any form of early speedlots or sair heavy build, so your main priority is to mass up. Get storm and templar, upgrades (leg speed, goon range etc), use the extra minerals left over to add gates. You'll want to get a robotics fairly soon as well, as lurkers are not your friends (and destination lurker contains can really be painful). This is also where you can start harassing with more corsairs and templar drops.
If you want to play as safe as possible, use your army to secure your third while cannons are going up. You can aim to take your third as your gates kick in, so that you have enough units/storms to hold off midgame hydra play. In your rep, you moved out blindly and just ended up losing your army, basically handing over map control and the chance to expo.
I'd really appreciate it if someone with more experience replied though, since I'm also interested to get more definitive answers.
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to answer the op question, D+ to C- is supposed to be one of the easiest gaps to cross, and i agree with that. C- to C on the other hand is much much harder. The reasoning comes down to the win/loss system of iccup. you lose 50 points for a loss at the D levels and 75 points for a loss at the C levels. So, for example, the amount of wins you have to get from D to D+ is about the same as from D+ to C-. The amount of wins you need from C- to C though is significantly higher, creating a larger skill gap.
I dont really know the technicalities of it all, but most people agree that D+, C+, and basically all the +'s are easier to get to the -'s than it is for the D-, C-, B- players to get to the regular ranks.
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Well, to defend his APM and spamming and whatnot, I play at 200-220 apm and I have about 50% redundancy- but I just feel comfortable playing that way. I think of it as having the raw resources so when i get better and start to multitask better I will have already have the apm to do it, i just will have to change which actions I do. My 2 cents on APM.
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Well while we're on this (and assuming most of TL has already done so) what would the skill gape between D and D+ be? I'm a terran starting a new season on ICCUP and have played only 40 games with a 35% winratio and have read through (and practised) stylish's and artosis's vods. I've been told to allow 200 games to breach the gap to D+. Any thoughts? my apm runs from about 150-170 with eapm ~100-110 but my basics are probably whats costing me games right now.
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On September 23 2009 19:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
haha if you have 250 apm at d+ ranks then you spam. there's no doubt about that.
Ez... iCCuP has a file called repinfo i believe, and it will tell you your redundancy and aom not counting the first 2 minutes since that is all spam anyway. As for skill, I am currently at C- and last season didnt have enough time to hit C but my apm are considerably less than yours, mechanics first then the speed will add on after you learn your builds it will become second nature.
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I reached C- last season with APM of ~98 
Since your physical seems good enough, I'd recommend just playing a lot of games to develop better game sense and to perfect build orders.
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Calgary25998 Posts
The skill gap from D+ to C- involves making a lot of workers and making a lot of units. That's it. Until around C you should just focus on making a lot of units.
To clarify:
Gamesense? No.
Timing? No.
Unit composition? No.
Unit control? No.
Making a lot of shit (not even necessarily the best shit for a situation)? Yes.
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On September 24 2009 00:25 Dfgj wrote:
If you scout 12 hatch and don't have the forge down, nex asap (I believe 13 nex 13 forge would be appropriate). I'm really not sure here though, as I tend to forge earlier in case of cheese.
The midgame depends on your build. From what I saw in your second replay, you weren't doing any form of early speedlots or sair heavy build, so your main priority is to mass up. Get storm and templar, upgrades (leg speed, goon range etc), use the extra minerals left over to add gates. You'll want to get a robotics fairly soon as well, as lurkers are not your friends (and destination lurker contains can really be painful). This is also where you can start harassing with more corsairs and templar drops.
If you want to play as safe as possible, use your army to secure your third while cannons are going up. You can aim to take your third as your gates kick in, so that you have enough units/storms to hold off midgame hydra play. In your rep, you moved out blindly and just ended up losing your army, basically handing over map control and the chance to expo.
I'd really appreciate it if someone with more experience replied though, since I'm also interested to get more definitive answers.
There's absolutely no reason to forge first when you scout a12 hatch. Doing so doesn't make you any safer from Zerglings.
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On September 24 2009 02:50 JFKWT wrote:
Well while we're on this (and assuming most of TL has already done so) what would the skill gape between D and D+ be? I'm a terran starting a new season on ICCUP and have played only 40 games with a 35% winratio and have read through (and practised) stylish's and artosis's vods. I've been told to allow 200 games to breach the gap to D+. Any thoughts? my apm runs from about 150-170 with eapm ~100-110 but my basics are probably whats costing me games right now.
to me:
I beat a lot of D+ with that apm/eapm. Find a build and memorize it. Then just macro.
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On September 24 2009 04:19 Chill wrote:
The skill gap from D+ to C- involves making a lot of workers and making a lot of units. That's it. Until around C you should just focus on making a lot of units.
To clarify:
Gamesense? No.
Timing? No.
Unit composition? No.
Unit control? No.
Making a lot of shit (not even necessarily the best shit for a situation)? Yes.
That sounds a clear and good advise. No need to read 1000 different guides, just (Fast expand and) make units...?
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Calgary25998 Posts
Yes.
Your first priority is making workers. Your second priority is making units and infrastructure (depots, barracks, gateways, pylons, overlords, hatcheries, etc).
For example, I play a lot of people at C- on ICCup who have really nice probe harass. Except I know they are missing probes left and right because of it. That isn't a good trade off. It's similar to the guy who spends a minute getting that last hit on the overlord being defending by a hydralisk. While he was flying in and out he probably missed 5 workers and a round of production. That's dumb. Make worker and unit production your priorities.
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EPT
