Recently, I made new accounts to practice 12-13 nexus exclusively.
Originally, I was prepared to get steamrolled quite often, but to my great surprise, it has been the exact opposite, even at C/C+ level most T players don't respond very well to "macro cheese" especially after scouting me late on 4 player maps. I've even managed good results on python, which is supposed to be a terrible FE map.
I am well aware of the things that Terrans can do against 12 nexus, namely:
- SCV/rine/bunker to kill off my nexus before goons come into play.
- 2 factory plays: - 2 fact vultures. - 2 fact tanks with siege and vulture support.
- Early vulture drop.
I have no problem with vulture drops and 2 fact vultures, as I get relatively fast obs with pylons partly walling my natural to deal with speed vultures.
However, against SCV/rine/bunker, when I get scouted early/on the first try, usually good C+/B- Terrans will most certainly attempt some form of scv/rine/bunker rush. I've decided that as long as they bring 2-3 scvs to contruct the bunker with more scvs/rines rallied to my natural, it is impossible to stop such an attack as I only have 1-2 zealots at the most with goons still building, resulting in a dead natural nexus.
Also, if I get scouted late, good T players know not to 2 fact vultures, but instead makes 3-4 tanks with siege and then vultures with mines, and even if I cancel zealots in the making and start pumping pure ranged goons, 3-4 tanks with 5-6 marines are still strong enough to push back my 4 dragoons while I have 2 about to finish, in which case I get pushed back into my natural without observers, and eventually he would mine up my natural choke and bring SCVs to construct depots/turrets slowly pushing into my natural, while he takes his own natural and macros up to steamroll me 5 minutes later.
How do you deal with the last two scenarios while 12-13 nexus'ing?
As far as I know, 12-14 Nexus delays Obs or any robo tech quite a bit so if you're getting obs quick enough to easily fend off 2 fact vult, you might be cutting too many zealot/dragoons.
If you're getting pushed back, honestly it comes down to micro for you to snipe as many of those rines as you can, and afterwards pure tanks shouldn't be hard to deal with with zeals and zooming in with goons. You should have enough time to throw a few hits in while he sieges and unsieges (assuming he upgraded siege). Also, I don't think it's possible for you to only have 4 goons if he has 4 tanks and 5-6 rines, you should have a few more and more coming from within your base, unless he did some sort of really aggressive 2-fact.
To deal with 2 fact vultures I delay obs quite a bit, and with a good number of goons (6-8) I can easily fend off speed vultures with a bit of goon micro. As for the push scenario, the Terran does aggressively 2 fact, and I have 4 goons outside his natural when he pushes out with 3-4 tanks and 6 rines with more vultures reinforcing, while I have 2 more goons finishing from my gateways.
I guess I just really need to work on my micro then, I'm a macro-style player and 6+2 goons should > 4 tanks/6 rines+vultures. It's almost like fending off a FD push except unit count on both sides are doubled, but terrans units gain strength exponentially as their numbers grow.
As for getting bunker rushed, I just watched a vod of Bisu running all his probes away from his natural nexus and allowing the terran to destroy his natural nexus. Who comes out on top economically in this case?
Are you sure you're putting your gate/gas down on 13 and skipping your 2nd pylon? you should have 2 gates pumping goons with range researching when his scvs/marines arrive. even if he takes down your nexus he's still losing economically. bunker = 100 mins, 3 scvs not mining for 4 mins ~300 minerals etc. dont get flustered about losing your nex, if he is able to take down your nex just push out with your range goons and put it back up again.
also, yeah, dont do 12 nex on python. it's pretty much only considered "safe" on heartbreak and destination.
watch how stork deals with fantasy's bunker rush: he still has a better economy despite losing the nex.
edit: actually yeah the goons wont pop out until later. id just let him take down the nex. 4 scvs is way too much of economic hit for him anyway. make sure you pump probes from your nexus as it's getting taken down, those extra probes are another reason why 12 nex is so viable despite it getting bunker rushed.
also, dman, i really love sotkrs pylon placement on that game, i bet it's applicable to heartbreak too, might try that.
On September 10 2009 12:01 kiykiy wrote: so just for the probes? .... then how effective is an inside base nex? O_O we might just be onto something..... edit: tanks.. not irradiate.
i sometimes wonder about inside base nex... but honestly my knowledge about how much benefit you get per probe is kinda lacking.. i dont think you'd quite break even with an inside base, 400 mins is just too much
I have noticed Stork lets his nexus die to even half-hearted bunker rushes (he did it against both Upmagic and Fantasy in WCG) -- I suppose if they have brought over 3 scvs, built the bunker, and produced additional marines he comes out ahead as long as he can pump out 2-3 probes before nexus goes down? Can anyone explain more in detail about the math behind this?
In response to the OP, when the T chooses to bunker rush, depending on the map, if you let your nexus fall a 2-3 goon / 1-2 zeal run-by can do a lot of damage to the Terran. This is illustrated not only in the Stork games but in a few other progames as well.
In the second scenario I am not too sure, but my instinct says that getting your dragoons in as forward a position as possible might allow you to delay the Terran enough to let your 2gate goon catch up.
There was thread recently about terrans complaining about 12 nexus and the general conclusion is even if it gets bunker rushed, the toss ends up ahead/even if he doesnt lose anything defending it. 400 minerals for the nexus vs 100 for bunker + mining time of several early game svs. More marines than terran usually wants that early. The protoss on the other hand can get 2-3 more probes than he normally would if they played straight up.
Basically, if it gets bunker rushed both players lose about 400 minerals, but the toss ends up a few probes ahead.
On September 13 2009 11:00 ImNotBisu wrote: Okay, conclusion from the replies/personal experience:
As P ends up even/ahead from 12 nexus'ing, I should do it every game.
If I get scouted first, bunker rush incoming, I let nex die and preserve probes. Even/ahead scenario.
If I get scouted last/late, I end up much more ahead. Win.
Now my question is, why don't P players 12 nex every game then, especially on big 4 player maps such as Colosseum?
because, as you stated yourself, bunker rushing isn't the only response. early vulture playing or even bbs can prove to be deadly. though, i admit i go 12 nexus' most of my games as well
12nex loses immediately to BBS. It also gives up Protoss's initial aggressive position, which is normally used to deny the Terran information about your build, to pressure his wall-in + delay his CC (perhaps killing workers/tanks), and to force him to defend against a variety of drops that might never come. If you 12nex, it will take much longer before you can hit him with DTs, DT drop, Reavers Drop, Bulldog, etc. and the Terran will know this.
I like 12nex, and it's a powerful build, but it tips your hand much sooner and more openly than a gateway-core build.
My advice is to study every PvT VOD you can find with 12 nexus, every replay you can find, and just play the build on the maps of the week every single PvT - without exception, every game. You need to learn why professional T players almost entirely avoid all in openings / all in counters to 12 nexus in TvP. Why is it you almost never see a pro T send 12 scvs and marines to bunker rush? Why is it you never see them go 2 factory vultures? Figure out what the pro P players do to punish those tactics and master those responses yourself.
Despite what a lot of people may think, 12 nexus PvT, especially on a 2 player map like HBR, is pretty advanced, and you need experience using the build to react correctly to every situation - even more so than a lot of other builds, simply due to your "stuff" early game, and the timings of the build.
every time i've done it against FD (tank, 2-3 scvs, 5-6 rines, 2 vults, comin w/ mines. he can then build a bunker or concentrate on blocking and repairing with the SCV's) i get steamrolled. I usually ignore 12-14 nexus for the reason it really seems to be one of those rock paper scissors builds. Especially with the rising popularity of the Strong FD.
12nexus defeats an FD or strong FD easily. (It's meant to be solid vs. 2fac). If that's not happening for you, you're playing it wrong.
Are you aware that 12 nexus cuts some probes to get 2 quick gateways pumping goons + range as quickly as possible? The expansion nexus serves as a second pylon. 12nexus is a lot like a 10/15 gate with a nexus jammed in.
On September 13 2009 14:47 Louder wrote: My advice is to study every PvT VOD you can find with 12 nexus, every replay you can find, and just play the build on the maps of the week every single PvT - without exception, every game. You need to learn why professional T players almost entirely avoid all in openings / all in counters to 12 nexus in TvP. Why is it you almost never see a pro T send 12 scvs and marines to bunker rush? Why is it you never see them go 2 factory vultures? Figure out what the pro P players do to punish those tactics and master those responses yourself.
Despite what a lot of people may think, 12 nexus PvT, especially on a 2 player map like HBR, is pretty advanced, and you need experience using the build to react correctly to every situation - even more so than a lot of other builds, simply due to your "stuff" early game, and the timings of the build.
Thanks, will watch more vods of 12 nex. I feel this is a really powerful build and it suits my macro style perfectly, so I'll definitely practice it more.
Also, I've seen a few replays where P goes 12 nex and the T bunker rushes to take down nexus, however the P simply allows nexus to die, preserve goons/probes, kills bunker when range is complete, pressure the terran, and techs straight to shuttle/DT where it completely catches the T players by surprise. I've tried this mostly at the C/C+ levels and it seems to catch most T players off guard.
To the post above:
FD/Strong FD/2 Fact are all terrible against 12 nex, given equal micro. More goons will be available to defend with at all those timings than a normal 1 gate expo, just slightly less than 2 gate goons. Only downside would be the late observers.
EPT
