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[Guide]Map Making - Page 2

Forum Index > BW General
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Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
June 15 2009 03:14 GMT
#21
I'm not a good mapper, I lack the talent to come up with new ideas and the dedication to pursue ideas and maps I start. I'm more of a mapping coach than a mapper.

I was considering making a map and writing a step-by-step process showing how I made the map, but I lacked both the time and the motivation to do so.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
June 15 2009 03:25 GMT
#22
On June 15 2009 08:51 .risingdragoon wrote:
Nah I don't mean scmdraft, which to my understanding is some newschool map editor. The name Suicidal Insanity does ring a bell though, I think he was a community member at CC. StarDraft and StarGraft are oldschool programs lotta mappers used back in the early years for making customs, total conversions, campaigns w/ specialized exe, etc. etc. For a long time they were released and maintained by Camelot Systems.

There's a lil gap in history for me, I left mapping in 02 and fell out completely later on. Anyway TheOracle crossed Badlands with Jungle in his Fallen Angel campaign.

UP: Okay I just looked it up. StarGraft is the spell/button set editor, so I remembered wrong, it's one of the specialized tile editors.

I've never seen a playable map with crossed tilesets... Unless it was a modded version of the game or something?

You can take sprites from other tile sets, sure. But not the actual terrain. If you've got the map I'd love to see it, but I'm pretty sure this is a product of false memory
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
neobowman
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3324 Posts
June 15 2009 05:19 GMT
#23
Nice guide.

I'm pretty sure crossed tilesets are impossible. Wouldn't really look all that good either.
.risingdragoon
Profile Joined January 2008
United States3021 Posts
June 15 2009 12:43 GMT
#24
It's possible. Cus it's been done before I left the mapping scene in 02.

And I don't know what you mean by "wouldn't really look all that good," it'll look as good as you can map it.
......::::........::::........::::........::::........::::.......::::.......::::... Up☆MaGiC ...::::.......::::.......::::........::::........::::........::::........
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
June 15 2009 17:48 GMT
#25
Then it's a lost art, because I have not seen it done in my entire mapping career.

It would look shitty because tiles generally do not blend with other tiles. Dirt tiles only blend with other dirt tiles, or tiles which have both dirt and some other terrain, like a dirt/jungle blend, which exists so that jungle and dirt isometric squares can coexist. It's not just about skill, you're still limited by the nature of tile-based mapping.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
June 15 2009 22:54 GMT
#26
I nominate this guide for winner of beta key.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
June 16 2009 19:37 GMT
#27
Don't a ton of the Matrix (defense) maps use mixed tile sets?

Granted, I haven't played those for many, many years and might not be remembering things correctly..
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
June 16 2009 20:11 GMT
#28
awesome... i love playing with the cracked map editors that let you 'paint' the terrain any way you want. Takes a lot of practice but you can actually make some pretty intense stuff
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
Clasic
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-16 20:23:13
June 16 2009 20:14 GMT
#29
How do you make those really really really long ramps?

Edit : Also how do you make maps like fastest where the mins and gas are close to the nexus?
No no no no its not mine!
NeonFlare
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Finland1307 Posts
June 16 2009 22:10 GMT
#30
On June 17 2009 05:14 Clasic wrote:
How do you make those really really really long ramps?

Edit : Also how do you make maps like fastest where the mins and gas are close to the nexus?


I belive it's impossible with the basic staredit, you have to use custom editor (either one of the older ones mentioned, I use ScmDraft2 which gives some nice stuff to work with like axis mirroring etc.) bigger ramps must be built tile by tile, or few tiles at time or copied from pre-existing ramp from another map.

Stacked resources and closer starting locations are also possible in the forementioned editors I recall. Though you might have to use some certain mode or something to do it, not sure as I haven't made maps in quite sometime. (Now that I took a look at some of my maps... they mostly suck :D )

Bajadulce
Profile Joined October 2004
United States322 Posts
June 17 2009 05:41 GMT
#31
On June 16 2009 07:54 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I nominate this guide for winner of beta key.
ditto. Nice guide. I always wondered how they did some of that stuff.
Planar Erratus: (www.broodwarai.com/mods/peai) Where the worlds of Baldur’s Gate, Arcanum, Diablo, Icewind Dale, Torment, and Warcraft collide with Starcraft. Don't question, just play! ... Dedicated to all my TL.net friends and old schoolers!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
June 17 2009 06:10 GMT
#32
On June 17 2009 05:14 Clasic wrote:
How do you make those really really really long ramps?

Edit : Also how do you make maps like fastest where the mins and gas are close to the nexus?

Use SCMDraft and under options there is an option to allow to you place minerals and resource buildings as close as you want. You have to use Tileset indexed with SCMDraft as well to create custom ramps.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Clasic
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
June 17 2009 06:44 GMT
#33
On June 17 2009 07:10 NeonFlare wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2009 05:14 Clasic wrote:
How do you make those really really really long ramps?

Edit : Also how do you make maps like fastest where the mins and gas are close to the nexus?


I belive it's impossible with the basic staredit, you have to use custom editor (either one of the older ones mentioned, I use ScmDraft2 which gives some nice stuff to work with like axis mirroring etc.) bigger ramps must be built tile by tile, or few tiles at time or copied from pre-existing ramp from another map.

Stacked resources and closer starting locations are also possible in the forementioned editors I recall. Though you might have to use some certain mode or something to do it, not sure as I haven't made maps in quite sometime. (Now that I took a look at some of my maps... they mostly suck :D )




On June 17 2009 15:10 Grobyc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 17 2009 05:14 Clasic wrote:
How do you make those really really really long ramps?

Edit : Also how do you make maps like fastest where the mins and gas are close to the nexus?

Use SCMDraft and under options there is an option to allow to you place minerals and resource buildings as close as you want. You have to use Tileset indexed with SCMDraft as well to create custom ramps.


Thx for both of your reply's.
No no no no its not mine!
Crahptacular
Profile Joined December 2008
United States295 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-06-17 08:23:25
June 17 2009 08:10 GMT
#34
I think a mixed tileset would be interesting, though I'd have to take a closer look at the tilesets themselves to judge if it'd be viable for a decent-looking map. Like, badlands and jungle both share dirt; jungle and ice share grass, many tilesets share water, etc. If the dirt in both sets were the same, or the grass, etc., then you can use those as a transition, where one half/side/part of the map is using the, say, ice tileset, while the other is on jungle, with any adjacent parts using grass as the common subset. Like a Venn diagram, basically.

edit: Also, about the whole idea of "wasted space" and the debate over that, I think it's a valid criticism of maps, but, like any other factor, isn't able to determine on its own whether a map is good or not. I would argue that unnecessary map features are worse than wasted space on the map. By unnecessary features I mean like adding a base or path that don't contribute to the concept of the map and don't enhance the style of play you're going for. Wasted space, like lots of broken cliff/water/etc to fill in the edges, are not really detrimental, and in some cases you just need a bit more space to carry out your concept, and therefore use 128x96 instead of 96x96 or something, and have to "waste" some of the extra space as a result. While you could argue that you should instead come up with a way to use that space or squeeze your concept into a smaller map, I don't think it's always possible, and so wasted space is sometimes unavoidable. On the other hand, adding something/taking something out as a way to eliminate wasted space can be a detriment to the execution of your concept, and is therefore worse. For example, I would be okay with a border of broken cliff all around the entire edge of the map, if the purpose was to make things in the middle a perfect distance and/or to make possible air routes for shuttles and such avoiding ground units' sight, or some other reasons like that. That, to me, is preferable to slightly increasing the size of bases, or widening paths, or whatever else one could do to make use of the space, if doing so significantly changed something about the way the map was meant to work (e.g. some distance is no longer siegeable due to increased size of a map feature).

Er yeah, summary: wasted space is sometimes unavoidable, and is a preferable alternative to altering the map if the alteration has negative impacts on gameplay.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
June 19 2009 20:23 GMT
#35
Well you've already read (I hope) exactly what I have to say about the issue. I'm a firm believer that so little space should be wasted in a map that you should be able to confidently say it's negligible. Something like broken cliff to protect the back of a nat is not inherently wasted space because it's useful for the map. That a map like (4)Othello can be made in 128x128 and effectively use essentially 100% of the map space, and that this map does NOT feel too open, that the distances do NOT feel too long, is strong evidence imo that every 128x128 map should be using all of the space. To not use all the space imo makes the map inferior to a map like Othello which does use all the space.

Yes I agree that "filling" space is just plain bad, but to waste space instead of "fill" it is not a good alternative. My thinking of course is that the map simply needs to be planned better or rethought on some aspects to use that space. To say "it can't be done" is simply lazy imo, a map like Othello is proof that it can be done. A concept which inherently wastes space is simply a bad concept imo. Now, that same concept may certainly have good aspects which should be recycled into a tweaked concept to make it work better.

Othello uses sort of a "twisted" layout, different from just "rotational symmetry" to fit everything. I think this "twisting" is important for concepts which appear initially to require slightly more space. For example if 128x96 is a little small but 128x128 is much too large. Additionally, you can use custom map dimensions. At broodwarmaps.net atleast it's been fairly popular to make (4)128x112 maps.

I can't say it's impossible for a map to be as perfect as it can be while wasting space as a definite statement, but I'm a firm believer that so-close-to-all-the-time-it-might-as-well-be-always avoiding all wasting space is better.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
June 19 2009 21:27 GMT
#36
Sick guide... I esp. liked the discussion on linearity. Props!
I will eat you alive
closed
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Vatican City State491 Posts
June 20 2009 00:18 GMT
#37
You could add that the player colours can be changed which in fact should be done. Black units look really cool, but you can find then in few maps. Same goes for green colour.
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
June 20 2009 02:14 GMT
#38
I'm afraid I don't fully understand how to add good colours to a map. Just using one of the non-normal colours in scmdraft2 through map scenario will add in a large variety of colours, many of which look like shit.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Lavarinth
Profile Joined June 2009
United States4 Posts
June 20 2009 23:31 GMT
#39
Hi all, to answer your constant curiosity about mixing tiles, it requires a program such a TileEdit, Hawt Tiles, PyMs, and so forth. They cannot be directly edited without modding. On Campaign Creations, any mixed tiles you experience are basically a tileset with another tileset's ground replacing a certain ground. The process to replace tiles is easy, however the effect is not very well unless you are doing it like has been done in campaigns: use enough of the tile to surpass the fog of war to not notice the blending with other tiles, typically only for cinematics.

Overall it's an MPQ editing process.
Campaign Creations Administrator
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
June 21 2009 18:23 GMT
#40
I see, thanks. When you say modding, this means that you couldn't make a map with this method and play it using an unmodded starcraft, right?
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
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