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[Map] First melee map in a long time ~_~

Forum Index > BW General
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konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-14 01:23:58
May 13 2009 15:12 GMT
#1
After some trouble I ran into, I finally finished this map. Been out of touch of map-making for years >__<

Anyway, here is the map:

Latest design:
[image loading]

Changed 6 and 12 design a bit
Added grass doodad so that Terran wall-in is now possible

+ Show Spoiler [4th design] +

[image loading]


Heavy design changes at 6 and 12, as well as nat.
Nat has a neutral creep colony that allows sunkens to be built without having a hatchery there, while nexus/CC can still be built at the nat itself
Back entrance has a zerg crysalis + DWeb at ramp, 5x0 mineral fields + 1 temple en route.
Added a mineral-only expo at backyard expo
Redesigned such that initial land-to-land becomes vertical instead of horizontal


+ Show Spoiler [3rd design] +

[image loading]


Major changes:
Main is now 9 mineral fields
3 and 9 expos have now 8 mineral fields instead
6 and 12 expos closer to the center now has a stasis cell instead of a warp gate (Stasis cell has more hp)


+ Show Spoiler [2nd design] +

[image loading]



+ Show Spoiler [Original design] +

[image loading]


Key difference - removed creep colonies at 3 and 9


+ Show Spoiler [2nd Edit] +

The stacked minerals at the temples at 12 and 6 are to help glitch units across, and they are 10x 0 stacked minerals.

At 3 and 9, I've applied the Troy/Battle Royal assimilator mechanics, so destroying both = no units except ghosts are allowed. The stacked mineral fields there are 5x 0 minerals.

All races can get the expos at 12 and 6, but will not be able to put additional defenses (cannons, turrets, bunkers) until the creep colonies are destroyed. Also, there are disruption webs placed around the geyser, which has a power generator stacked on it, so that the Zerg will not be able to mine gas from it until they build a sunken colony or get mutalisks or hydralisks (ranged units, basically). Hence, they'll either have to choose between destroying the power generator with a range unit or destroying the warp gate and getting that expo. (Or alternatively, he can get the starting positions.

The expansions below 12 and above 6 need the warp gate to be destroyed in order to get an expansion.

At 3, 9 and center expansion, power generators need to be destroyed in order to start mining gas.

There are 5 temples at 12 and 6, stacked just one square above another. Destroying this allows quick access from left to right side.


The concept I wanted to use was a position-based fight, so if both players spawn at the bottom, early fights are expected while if the players spawn at north and south side, a macro game will ensue.

Any suggestions/comments are welcome!

(P.S: My reverse ramps are so damn ugly :< )

Download link: -> http://www.mediafire.com/?nzuhx3zmzlo

Some info (latest):
Main: 9M 1G (1500/5000)
Nat: 7M 1G (1500/5000)
12/6 Expo: 5M 1G (1500/5000) (Gas needs to have Psi Disruptor destroyed)
12/6 Expo (closer to center): 7M 1G (1500/5000) (Stasis Cell needs to be destroyed)
3/9 Expo: 8M 2G (1500/5000) (1 Gas needs to have Psi Disruptor destroyed to run)
Center expo: 10M 2G (1500/5000) (Both gas needs Psi Disruptor destroyed + Xel'Naga temple must be destroyed to run)

Thanks to RubiksCube and Saracen for helping me out with the sprite issues.
POGGERS
Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
May 13 2009 15:16 GMT
#2
Wow. There are a lot of neutral buildings on that map. Really interesting design.
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
wishbones
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada2600 Posts
May 13 2009 15:21 GMT
#3
ive always wondered this, when a map says 128x128, does that mean 128 inches by 128 inches? and does that mean actual inches? so that means we move across 128 inxhes both high and wide, at a fast pace. Fuck we are the shit!
joined TL.net in 2006 (aka GMer) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41944#2
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:23 GMT
#4
I don't know :X
POGGERS
RushWifDietCoke
Profile Joined May 2008
United States488 Posts
May 13 2009 15:25 GMT
#5
Cool map. I like the newer one with the creeps removed. I bet Zerg would dominate Terran on this map because Terran would have a hard time setting up a 3rd but thats just my guess. Time to download it and try it out Thanks for spendings some time to make a map for all of us to enjoy.
Nothing to it but to do it.
wishbones
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada2600 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-13 15:26:12
May 13 2009 15:25 GMT
#6
if so then blizzard shud come out with cheap costing projectors so it can project a 128x128 minimap on my wall at home. :D aha. That would be gosu!
joined TL.net in 2006 (aka GMer) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41944#2
Mogwai
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United States13274 Posts
May 13 2009 15:26 GMT
#7
i think 128 is talking about the squares that are used for buildings and whatnot. like, a pylon is 2 x 2... I could be wrong, but I've always thought that's what those measurements were.
mogwaismusings.wordpress.com
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-13 15:28:30
May 13 2009 15:27 GMT
#8
Each number represents one 'grid square' of the map IIRC

Suddenly remembered about the process of map making -_-
POGGERS
wishbones
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada2600 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-13 15:30:21
May 13 2009 15:29 GMT
#9
On May 14 2009 00:26 Mogwai wrote:
i think 128 is talking about the squares that are used for buildings and whatnot. like, a pylon is 2 x 2... I could be wrong, but I've always thought that's what those measurements were.

you are right i remember making maps and the bottom left counts those. But my thought sounds right, i mean if you go and check it out you might be surprised how close to 128x128 inches a map 128x128 is. I am now on the next phase, i bet those map editor squares actually get converted into RTI's Real Time Inches. O.o

hold this thought im getting my measuring tape. Ill be back with the answer <3
joined TL.net in 2006 (aka GMer) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41944#2
sushiman
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden2691 Posts
May 13 2009 15:29 GMT
#10
Seems quite z-favored. Lots of open ground and exposed expansions. No way for toss to make a safe FE if both players end up on the same side of the map.
Unless the middle is opened up, there's a 66% chance you end up without early land access to your opponent, and with the many routes into the main and expo, mutas will probably reign supreme.
1000 at least.
KnightOfNi
Profile Joined December 2007
United States1508 Posts
May 13 2009 15:29 GMT
#11
I don't think that you can kill warp gates, but I'm not sure on that. You should probably get that checked through testing.

Also, the map looks really linear, and the buildings (especially at 12/3/6/9) make the map look and probably feel really convoluted. Another thing: do the power generators on top of the geysers actually prevent an assimilator from being built?

I'm gonna go and test this out now.
RIP eSTRO :(
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:31 GMT
#12
On May 14 2009 00:29 sushiman wrote:
Seems quite z-favored. Lots of open ground and exposed expansions. No way for toss to make a safe FE if both players end up on the same side of the map.
Unless the middle is opened up, there's a 66% chance you end up without early land access to your opponent, and with the many routes into the main and expo, mutas will probably reign supreme.


Hmm.. so do I make the expos tighter (with walls) or something?

On May 14 2009 00:29 KnightOfNi wrote:
I don't think that you can kill warp gates, but I'm not sure on that. You should probably get that checked through testing.

Also, the map looks really linear, and the buildings (especially at 12/3/6/9) make the map look and probably feel really convoluted. Another thing: do the power generators on top of the geysers actually prevent an assimilator from being built?

I'm gonna go and test this out now.


Ah, great issues. I'll test them all now.
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:32 GMT
#13
Ok, I guess I should replace the power generators on geysers, they do nothing lol
POGGERS
wishbones
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada2600 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-13 15:37:32
May 13 2009 15:36 GMT
#14
http://auctionrepair.com/pixels.html

alrite I checked 4096x4096 on that website and it says: 54.61x54.61 inches. :o but! but!, notice the minerals are a tad smaller than in the game so i would add another 10 inches to that maybe put it around 65x65inches for a 128x128 map. Good Game. Nice map btw all i had to do was click the picture to be able to see it smaller. I was trying to see it in its current state.

edit: i have yet to find out just how many inches is on Killing Fields. ahahah gosu map.
again, nice map.
joined TL.net in 2006 (aka GMer) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41944#2
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:38 GMT
#15
I tried replacing geysers with assimilators, but when they are destroyed they show as 'depleted' >__>
POGGERS
wishbones
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Canada2600 Posts
May 13 2009 15:39 GMT
#16
maybe have the power generators have a ridiculous amount of hp like 10,000. No one will try to kill that right away.
joined TL.net in 2006 (aka GMer) - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41944#2
KnightOfNi
Profile Joined December 2007
United States1508 Posts
May 13 2009 15:40 GMT
#17
Alright, after testing, your concept doesn't work. I could build assimilators extractors and refineries on all of the geysers on the map. You can apparently kill the warp gates... who knew? Oh and your dwebs are messed up too. They kinda show up wherever they want to in game. Don't know why, they just do.
RIP eSTRO :(
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:45 GMT
#18
Yeah I noticed the D-webs going haywire too. I think I should try using starforge for that.

As for the power generators, it doesn't matter how much HP they have, buildings still can be built on it. I tried another concept, placing mineral fields on the geysers, but that doesn't work as well.

MMm.. >__<
POGGERS
Abihsot
Profile Joined April 2009
United States13 Posts
May 13 2009 15:48 GMT
#19
very interesting map. I realized there are 10 mineral patches in main base so I assume in PvZ, P can go 2gate lot push (when they are on same side) then expand to natural or something. Only thing im concerned is that there might be too much resources on other expansions. (even though they are blocked by natural buildings..) Maybe try 6~8 min+ 1 gas instead 10 min+2 gas on 3 and 9?
KnightOfNi
Profile Joined December 2007
United States1508 Posts
May 13 2009 15:51 GMT
#20
Use SCMDraft.

Yeah and the bases at 3 and 9 are LOADED with minerals... WAYY too much so.
RIP eSTRO :(
drinking
Profile Joined December 2008
Philippines281 Posts
May 13 2009 15:52 GMT
#21
Pretty good map, konadora. I think it's kinda zerg-favored in the mid-game. This seems hard to expand since the expos are very wide and vulnerable to harrasses
Try not. Do or do not.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:52 GMT
#22
On May 14 2009 00:48 Abihsot wrote:
very interesting map. I realized there are 10 mineral patches in main base so I assume in PvZ, P can go 2gate lot push (when they are on same side) then expand to natural or something. Only thing im concerned is that there might be too much resources on other expansions. (even though they are blocked by natural buildings..) Maybe try 6~8 min+ 1 gas instead 10 min+2 gas on 3 and 9?

Okay I'll do that.

Btw, Knightofi, I found a method. I placed a big psi disruptor, so although extractor and other buildings can be built, they can't be mined.
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 15:59 GMT
#23
Okay I updated the OP, comments please
POGGERS
decafchicken
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
United States20063 Posts
May 13 2009 16:45 GMT
#24
z >>> p >>> t >>> z if its close position. Other than that probably z/p >>> t due to the openess and inability to build shit anywhere in the middle of the map
how reasonable is it to eat off wood instead of your tummy?
Trozz
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3454 Posts
May 13 2009 16:46 GMT
#25
I really like this.
Horizontal spawns are rad.
Gotta scout it quick.

I want to play this.
If I'm looking for a game,
where should I loiter?
A build is not a guess, an estimation or a hunch, a feeling, or a foolish intuition. A build is a dependable, unwavering, unarguably accurate, portrayer of your ambition.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 16:52 GMT
#26
On May 14 2009 01:45 decafchicken wrote:
z >>> p >>> t >>> z if its close position. Other than that probably z/p >>> t due to the openess and inability to build shit anywhere in the middle of the map


Should I widen the center area of the map? I thought if I were to widen it, T can just turtle there.


On May 14 2009 01:46 Trozz wrote:
I really like this.
Horizontal spawns are rad.
Gotta scout it quick.

I want to play this.
If I'm looking for a game,
where should I loiter?


I'ma try playing this after school today (which is like, in almost 18 hours' time), so feel free to PM me your iccup/garena ID and I'll contact you (and anyone else who wanna try playing).
POGGERS
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 13 2009 17:28 GMT
#27
Red and teal's main and natural gas are both slower than the other two players

Left and above the Town Hall: 3 peons.

Right and below the Town Hall: 4 peons.

The creep at the top does not go onto the cliff edge like the creep at the bottom does. This would be significant in 2v2 play.

Other things... But not bad for someone who just got back to map making.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
MasterReY
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Germany2708 Posts
May 13 2009 17:35 GMT
#28
get creep at 12 and 6 again :O
otherwise that sunkens are useless there.

i suggest to make the assimilators which block 3 and 9 a bit more in one vertical line.

like:

      ###

      ###

instead of

            ###
###
https://www.twitch.tv/MasterReY/ ~ Biggest Reach fan on TL.net (Don't even dare to mention LR now) ~ R.I.P Violet ~ Developer of SCRChart
TL+ Member
MagisterMan
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Sweden525 Posts
May 13 2009 18:10 GMT
#29
Ah this thread has inspired me to make a map! Btw do you take that big screenshot of the map?
Nachos?
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 21:04 GMT
#30
On May 14 2009 02:28 Chef wrote:
Red and teal's main and natural gas are both slower than the other two players

Left and above the Town Hall: 3 peons.

Right and below the Town Hall: 4 peons.

The creep at the top does not go onto the cliff edge like the creep at the bottom does. This would be significant in 2v2 play.

Other things... But not bad for someone who just got back to map making.


Okay I'll change the gas positions. Thx.

On May 14 2009 02:35 MasterReY wrote:
get creep at 12 and 6 again :O
otherwise that sunkens are useless there.

i suggest to make the assimilators which block 3 and 9 a bit more in one vertical line.

like:

      ###

      ###

instead of

            ###
###


I dunno about the creep, the creep in the second pic was unintentional (problem with SCMDraft), I'll try to do that.

Dunno what you mean by one vertical line though.

On May 14 2009 03:10 MagisterMan wrote:
Ah this thread has inspired me to make a map! Btw do you take that big screenshot of the map?


Use SCMDraft, File -> Save Image
POGGERS
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
May 13 2009 21:08 GMT
#31
PLEASE resize your map picture. I personally use photofiltre (free download) to resize my map images quickly.

Um there isn't much I can say since you're obviously trying to make a map really different from any "norm" or standard.

But there are some things which simply don't make sense at all to me so I'll comment on them:

gas issue; an easy fix is to make all main geysers directly above the sl.
Your mineral formations look terrible, have you tested them?

Since your nat makes FE nearly impossible in most cases, I would reccomend making the main choke much smaller to make the fact that you're forcing 1base openings easier on the players.

I highly doubt your mineral/temples at 12/6 are going to function like the minerals/temples in Medusa if that's what you're aiming for. I think if you removed the minerals there would be no difference. Stacking your temples like that is kind of annoying since the effects of splash are so diminished.
I don't like the innate pathing issues they cause between horizontal players, and don't think they help gameplay. In fact, I think they distract players from the concept, and are more likely to make gameplay annoying than to spice it up.

There's a lot of wasted space between the mains and islands. Mostly this is due to using an awkward expo layout with this form of map symmetry.

I think the horizontal positions' pathing is too linear and too tight for any kind of decent balance. It might be better to make the vertical positions open and neutral block the horizontal ones instead.

The min onlys at 12/6 are essentially useless, they're very poor, poorly placed, and very vulnerable. Horizontal players can't effectively fight over the min onlys, nor do they have any reason to fight over them.

If the psi disruptors in the islands actually work, I think they're overkill. An egg wall, troy gate, neutral block, stacked neutral block, stacked 0 value mineral wall would all work individually, but I don't think any of those need an additional high hp neutral block. By that point, you've made those expansions fully island and then the neutrals or whatever concept you use just form clutter.

The central expansion is entirely useless. It's incredibly vulnerable, has no gas and thus has no value, is nearly impossible to take at all since you must first kill an armoured 5000 hp building. If those psi disruptors hide geysers under them, they're really annoying and only further make the expansion useless. If they're just there to block pathing, they're really annoying because they further block pathing. I highly reccomend entirely removing the central expo as it blocks potentially critical pathing for corner and vertical gameplay.

What are the psi disruptors for on the lowground of 12/6?

Representing the only neutral gas expansions, and the critical only non-island 5th gas for vertical or corner players, I think the 12/6 lowground gas expos are too vulnerable and needlessly neutral blocked. I can understand leaving them vulnerable, but I don't understand the neutral block.

You've made scouting incredibly difficult, particularly for zerg, who has absolutely no safe place to put his ovys anywhere in the map. It's impossible to scout vertical positions for a long time. However, for horizontal positions it's retardedly easy to scout since the main choke is so large, and because of the presence of the backdoor (later on). This seems... odd to me.

One big aspect of the map I view as a problem is in how spread out its expo layout is. Essentially you've created a 3 way (2)map instead of a (4)map. And, 128x128 does NOT work for (2)maps. I've practically written essays elsewhere on why you shouldn't make a (2)128x128 map, but suffice it to say this correlation explains why you have such a spread out expo layout which large chunks of wasted or useless space.
I think this actually however stems from a lack of any real concept. I see a few conceptual prototypes mixed together with randomly placed objects, not any real one concept. While this is not necessarily bad for the map if that's what you want, I think you can make a much better map if you refine your ideas into one solid concept. That's not to say you can't use multiple aspects or features, but I believe the whole map will work better if you integrate it all so that instead of having a paint splatter of concepts you have a nice blend or stew of concepts which all complement eachother.
For example, let me list some of the viable concepts I see in the map:
-Positionally varied gameplay involving hybrid island play vs plain ground play
-A more micro oriented map focusing on encouraging 1base openings and discouraging modern FE builds

The problems with those concepts is that the gameplay for the different positions is just kind of bad imo. You have awfully linear and tight pathing with long distances and no functional expo layout, with a backdoor nearly impossible to defend under most circumstances in horizontal positions. The backdoor to be honest makes no sense to me, it just doesn't flow with anything else here. It's just here because you decided you wanted a backdoor, ignoring as far as I can see the implications it would have on gameplay. In a horizontal game, only the bottom/top half of the map matters. Imagine BlitzX without the 3rd gas expo, and with a normal path instead of a tight path. Then, make the expos in the bottom half of BlitzX 32 tiles farther, with no reason to even venture half that far since you also take away the large battlefield Blitzx nececitates with its tight choke normally. Then, replace the island with a backdoor path connecting the mains. Can you honestly imagine any kind of good gameplay on the map I just described? That's what you've created in your horizontal world. The horizontal world is a main vs a main with 128 tiles between them. Main vs main only really works in Blood Bath, with 64 tiles separating players. The nats are so difficult to defend, only the distance between players functions as a kind of defense, but if you're behind/losing you can't really use that to your advantage, so you're just stuck losing, making the whole horizontal gameplay focused on all-in 1base builds like 3gate reaver, 4rax tanks, ridiculous stuff like that.
For vertical positions, the expo layout is a little more functional since you have free access to the horizontal main/nat as well as some of the neutral expansions. However, the fact that everything is so spaced out is accentuated. The 1base orientation is entirely lost. The hybrid play neutrals might have encouraged is entirely lost in favour of slower than normal macro play without most forms of harass or scouting. Linearity is still present to a lesser degree in pathing.

Your positional variety is present, there indeed are different positional games here, but each individual positional scenario is imo quite awful.

The hybrid gameplay is thwarted by the absence of any reason to play the map islandish.

The 1base orientation is thwarted by the layout discouraging it. 1base openings tend to be all-inish enough without offering no real transitions.

1base orientation is tough to balance and/or make work for long games, but I think if you focused on that alone you could manage it, especially if you don't mind using a vast array of weird small features and concepts along the way.
Hybrid gameplay (land/island discrepancies) is tough to make work too, but again I think if you focused on it you easily could make it work. However, 1base orientation and hybrid play are very different. To make 1base orientation work, you must have a way to transition into more than 1base play later, else you might as well remake Blood Bath. However, a hybrid layout makes the 2nd expansion very easy to take regardless due to the inability of players to harass eachother at "normal" times. Thus I think you should pick either/or rather than both.
Forced positional variety is definitely viable imo, and potentially really fun if done right. Positionally varied hybrid gameplay is definitely possible and even viable, but I don't think a 1base orientation will work well with that due to the hybrid/1base confliction I mentioned above.

tl;dr I think you should focus on a single main concept, and try to create a viable expo layout and structure around the concept, or make the concept around a viable expo layout, instead of mixing such conflicting concepts together. There's a difference from being "interesting" and "complex/complicated". You can complicate a map and make it interesting if you complicate it within reason/moderation. Throwing a weird expo layout, hybrid island play, forced positional variety, and complex (and even messy, here) use of neutrals all in one map just makes a complicated map.


Ok I lied. There is much I can say. If you're interested in mapping more, or want more opinions on the map, you should post it at broodwarmaps.net. I think you'll find a weird map like this recepted a little better. People here are friendly enough to post, but you most likely aren't going to attract the best gamers to comment on the map since the gameplay is so radical. Radical concepts are neat to mappers, but frustrating/annoying to gamers, I find.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 13 2009 21:12 GMT
#32
You've scared the poor boy, Nightmar
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
May 13 2009 21:27 GMT
#33
lol you know I'm incapable of writing a short comment about a map, unless it's a generalized flame.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
May 13 2009 21:30 GMT
#34
it sucks so much i hate it plz go kill urself noob.

lol it reminds me of arkanoid but not all 4 bases are seperated from each other! so its like iron curtain vs. arkanoid map. pretty cool.
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
May 13 2009 21:31 GMT
#35
rofl nice post nightmarjoo
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-13 21:37:07
May 13 2009 21:35 GMT
#36
On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
PLEASE resize your map picture. I personally use photofiltre (free download) to resize my map images quickly.


Sorry, didn't think about that :S

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
gas issue; an easy fix is to make all main geysers directly above the sl.
Your mineral formations look terrible, have you tested them?


The gas issue was already addressed, going to change them. As for the mineral formation, I'll be using a few maps as references and change them.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Since your nat makes FE nearly impossible in most cases, I would reccomend making the main choke much smaller to make the fact that you're forcing 1base openings easier on the players.


That's why I added the psi disruptors there, but don't know if they actually help.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I highly doubt your mineral/temples at 12/6 are going to function like the minerals/temples in Medusa if that's what you're aiming for. I think if you removed the minerals there would be no difference. Stacking your temples like that is kind of annoying since the effects of splash are so diminished.


Actually after re-looking, I felt that it was slightly ugly so I was considering replacing them with eggs and minerals.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I don't like the innate pathing issues they cause between horizontal players, and don't think they help gameplay. In fact, I think they distract players from the concept, and are more likely to make gameplay annoying than to spice it up.

Combined with above comment, thought of making early rushes if both are at south/north inevitable.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
There's a lot of wasted space between the mains and islands. Mostly this is due to using an awkward expo layout with this form of map symmetry.


I was actually thinking about this, and thought of different ways to make use of this space such as a backyard expo or something.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I think the horizontal positions' pathing is too linear and too tight for any kind of decent balance. It might be better to make the vertical positions open and neutral block the horizontal ones instead.


K I'll try and see how it looks.

The min onlys at 12/6 are essentially useless, they're very poor, poorly placed, and very vulnerable. Horizontal players can't effectively fight over the min onlys, nor do they have any reason to fight over them.
[/quote]

There are no min onlys, but I'm assuming you're talking about the ones closer to the edge of the map?

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
If the psi disruptors in the islands actually work, I think they're overkill. An egg wall, troy gate, neutral block, stacked neutral block, stacked 0 value mineral wall would all work individually, but I don't think any of those need an additional high hp neutral block. By that point, you've made those expansions fully island and then the neutrals or whatever concept you use just form clutter.


On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
What are the psi disruptors for on the lowground of 12/6?

Those are vespene geysers, they need to be destroyed in order to be run.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The central expansion is entirely useless. It's incredibly vulnerable, has no gas and thus has no value, is nearly impossible to take at all since you must first kill an armoured 5000 hp building. If those psi disruptors hide geysers under them, they're really annoying and only further make the expansion useless. If they're just there to block pathing, they're really annoying because they further block pathing. I highly reccomend entirely removing the central expo as it blocks potentially critical pathing for corner and vertical gameplay.


They have gas fyi. But I get your point, I'll try removing it and see how it looks.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Representing the only neutral gas expansions, and the critical only non-island 5th gas for vertical or corner players, I think the 12/6 lowground gas expos are too vulnerable and needlessly neutral blocked. I can understand leaving them vulnerable, but I don't understand the neutral block.


You mean the stasis cell? I was planning for the player to make a decision of deciding which expansion to take, either by destroying a neutral building or by having a ranged unit to get the alternative gas expo (I was supposed to put d-webs there, but I forgot)

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
You've made scouting incredibly difficult, particularly for zerg, who has absolutely no safe place to put his ovys anywhere in the map. It's impossible to scout vertical positions for a long time. However, for horizontal positions it's retardedly easy to scout since the main choke is so large, and because of the presence of the backdoor (later on). This seems... odd to me.


I guess you're talking about the lack of cliffs for overlords to hide on?

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
For example, let me list some of the viable concepts I see in the map:
-Positionally varied gameplay involving hybrid island play vs plain ground play
-A more micro oriented map focusing on encouraging 1base openings and discouraging modern FE builds


Yeah, that was what I was trying to aim for.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
The problems with those concepts is that the gameplay for the different positions is just kind of bad imo. You have awfully linear and tight pathing with long distances and no functional expo layout, with a backdoor nearly impossible to defend under most circumstances in horizontal positions. The backdoor to be honest makes no sense to me, it just doesn't flow with anything else here. It's just here because you decided you wanted a backdoor, ignoring as far as I can see the implications it would have on gameplay. In a horizontal game, only the bottom/top half of the map matters. Imagine BlitzX without the 3rd gas expo, and with a normal path instead of a tight path. Then, make the expos in the bottom half of BlitzX 32 tiles farther, with no reason to even venture half that far since you also take away the large battlefield Blitzx nececitates with its tight choke normally. Then, replace the island with a backdoor path connecting the mains. Can you honestly imagine any kind of good gameplay on the map I just described? That's what you've created in your horizontal world. The horizontal world is a main vs a main with 128 tiles between them. Main vs main only really works in Blood Bath, with 64 tiles separating players. The nats are so difficult to defend, only the distance between players functions as a kind of defense, but if you're behind/losing you can't really use that to your advantage, so you're just stuck losing, making the whole horizontal gameplay focused on all-in 1base builds like 3gate reaver, 4rax tanks, ridiculous stuff like that.
For vertical positions, the expo layout is a little more functional since you have free access to the horizontal main/nat as well as some of the neutral expansions. However, the fact that everything is so spaced out is accentuated. The 1base orientation is entirely lost. The hybrid play neutrals might have encouraged is entirely lost in favour of slower than normal macro play without most forms of harass or scouting. Linearity is still present to a lesser degree in pathing.


I see... that was something I wanted to see but didn't think it's affect the gameplay to such a degree.

By saying that the expansions are all spaced out, you mean that I have to make the expansions closer to the mains and stuff?

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
1base orientation is tough to balance and/or make work for long games, but I think if you focused on that alone you could manage it, especially if you don't mind using a vast array of weird small features and concepts along the way.
Hybrid gameplay (land/island discrepancies) is tough to make work too, but again I think if you focused on it you easily could make it work. However, 1base orientation and hybrid play are very different. To make 1base orientation work, you must have a way to transition into more than 1base play later, else you might as well remake Blood Bath. However, a hybrid layout makes the 2nd expansion very easy to take regardless due to the inability of players to harass eachother at "normal" times. Thus I think you should pick either/or rather than both.


By the inability to harass each other, you mean when they are at vertical positions right?

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
tl;dr I think you should focus on a single main concept, and try to create a viable expo layout and structure around the concept, or make the concept around a viable expo layout, instead of mixing such conflicting concepts together. There's a difference from being "interesting" and "complex/complicated". You can complicate a map and make it interesting if you complicate it within reason/moderation. Throwing a weird expo layout, hybrid island play, forced positional variety, and complex (and even messy, here) use of neutrals all in one map just makes a complicated map.


Okay, I guess I'll have to rethink about the expo positionings.

On May 14 2009 06:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Ok I lied. There is much I can say. If you're interested in mapping more, or want more opinions on the map, you should post it at broodwarmaps.net. I think you'll find a weird map like this recepted a little better. People here are friendly enough to post, but you most likely aren't going to attract the best gamers to comment on the map since the gameplay is so radical. Radical concepts are neat to mappers, but frustrating/annoying to gamers, I find.

I was an active member in SEN, but later I just died out there. I've been taking a look at other good melee maps from SEN, BWM and ITM and trying to learn from them.

Thanks for taking such a long time to write up greatly-thought-up comments. Really appreciate it.
POGGERS
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
May 13 2009 21:44 GMT
#37
Writing long comments about maps is... what I do

To clarify: even with the psi dispruptors I think the main chokes are too large. To make 1base viable I think protoss should be able to fully block the choke with 2-3 zlots at most. Otherwise I think it's really hard for protoss against zerg, even given the long distances. Terran has an easier time since he can wall. I assume terran can effectively wall with 3 buildings in some manner here. Zerg has the toughest time with 1base stuff, but I think zerg can expo at the nat normally with some kind of ling heavy build vs terran, and play whatever vs protoss and be ok.

I think the neutrals which cover geysers are really annoying, but that's your call. I still think the 12/6 expos are useless though.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 21:48 GMT
#38
Haha, I see

Yeah, I removed the wide choke and replaced it with a normal sized choke. Removed the neutral-covered geysers at 3,6,9 and 12 atm. Will upload an updated pic later.
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 23:22 GMT
#39
Okay, updated. Take a look and feel free to leave comments ^^;
POGGERS
alffla
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Hong Kong20321 Posts
May 13 2009 23:43 GMT
#40
wtf, now it's andromeda and troy!
Graphicssavior[gm] : What is a “yawn” rape ;; Masumune - It was the year of the pig for those fucking defilers. Chill - A clinic you say? okum: SC without Korean yelling is like porn without sex. konamix: HAPPY BIRTHDAY MOMMY!
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 13 2009 23:43 GMT
#41
Yeah lol somehow it looks like that :S
POGGERS
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
May 13 2009 23:54 GMT
#42
map making plus translating fifty billion articles
you have so much time on your hands O_O
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
May 13 2009 23:58 GMT
#43
Mutas will rape the naturals with no mercy...no space for turrets behind the mins. ):

Also...it might be something you were going for with the map, but I don't like the placement of the ramps for each of the mains...it's so close to the outside that it'll be hard to block off, especially for a forge expanding toss.
Hello
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 14 2009 00:01 GMT
#44
Should I move up the minerals a bit?

Protoss can go 1 gate -> FE depending on Zerg's position
POGGERS
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
May 14 2009 00:05 GMT
#45
On May 14 2009 09:01 konadora wrote:
Should I move up the minerals a bit?

Protoss can go 1 gate -> FE depending on Zerg's position

even if they can do that, i don't think it's a good idea to restrict options for any race
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-14 00:24:03
May 14 2009 00:06 GMT
#46
Mm... how should I position the ramps then? Or move the nat a bit further ahead?

Or maybe tighten the choke? Remove the creep colony? Or both?

Actually I'm interested in playing on this for balance checks. Anyone?

Oh snap, web doesn't cast and I forgot to stack minerals.
POGGERS
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
May 14 2009 00:54 GMT
#47
Jesus christ it's a whole new map :O

I'd be surprised if those dwebs both work and don't crash the map ._.

Despite a lot of these changes being similar to or exactly what I suggested, I'm not sure I like how this version has turned out. I dunno ._. Just a bizzare and radical jump from what you had before.

There's a lot of little things that could be fixed. I don't really want to list all of them atm, but if you want me to I can try to do it later.

I'm just not sure this is the map you had wanted to make, it's just so different from the version I commented on lol.

I think it might be productive if instead of spending a lot of time on one map, if you just kept making new maps to help you practice, and to help you learn all the little things every mapper picks up. If you don't plan on being a serious mapper then this obviously is a waste of time, but then at the same time if you don't plan on being a serious mapper it's not really important to perfect this map/concept anyway.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-05-14 01:09:46
May 14 2009 01:01 GMT
#48
I just wanted to try a new concept map, but the expo positioning was baaaaaad.

Trying to get the last d-web to work rofl, the rest work fine (copy pasted from Hwangsangbyul rofl)

What do you think is the greatest change?

>_______<

THE D-WEBS DON'T WORK, THEY KEEP GOING HAYWIRE >_<

I'll just remove the d-webs rofl

Maybe I remove the 6 and 12 and replace it with a connected like the older map?
POGGERS
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 14 2009 01:24 GMT
#49
Okay I changed 6 and 12 a bit, how about now?
POGGERS
Nightmarjoo
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
United States3360 Posts
May 14 2009 01:33 GMT
#50
lol that's not what I meant. But let me say first of all don't let me dictate what you do with your map, it is your map. Bare in mind that ultimately only you know what the map you want to make looks like, and anything I say will be biased by what I want the map to look like, or something like that.

Mostly though, it's the whole Andromeda heavy macro thing that's weird to me. When I said "more normal expo layout" I just had in mind 4 base per player stuff, with islands on top of that or something. That doesn't mean you should hand out the money for free (the min only).

I think the map needs to be more normalized though, more standard main/nat to start off with. I think that however the concept turns out you should still use fairly normal shapes, sizes, distances, proportions, etc. You might need to alter the symmetry. Rotational symmetry is almost always superior to this kind of symmetry in 4 player maps. You're using up a lot of space on what I think are needless facets. But I dunno =/ Can you explain to me exactly what you want in the map? What are the most important features? What do you like or dislike about the map? I think if we start there we can do more with the map.
aka Lyra; My favourites: July, Stork, Draco, MistrZZZ, TheStc, LastShadow - www.broodwarmaps.net - for all your mapping needs; check my stream: high masters mech terran: twitch.tv/lyrathegreat
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 14 2009 01:39 GMT
#51
Was thinking of early game battles if same side of the wall, if not mid-late game macro fights.

Also was thinking of creating a map design that will go for heavy late-game harassment.

All these while adding in a few experimental concepts (neutral-building-covered gas, d-web, colonies)
POGGERS
Musoeun
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States4324 Posts
May 14 2009 03:53 GMT
#52
I'm looking at the map, and the only way you'll actually get a fast game is if both spawn either left or right side. Anything else there's a bunch of buildings in the way.
Don't Shoot the Penguins. | Dance, 성은, dance! | Killer FanKlub | Action sucks. | Storm Terran hwaiting.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 14 2009 03:56 GMT
#53
Playing PvZ.. wow damn it's hard.
POGGERS
Jayme
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States5866 Posts
May 14 2009 04:33 GMT
#54
On May 14 2009 12:53 Musoeun wrote:
I'm looking at the map, and the only way you'll actually get a fast game is if both spawn either left or right side. Anything else there's a bunch of buildings in the way.


I believe that's entirely the point...
Python is garbage, number 1 advocate of getting rid of it.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66355 Posts
May 14 2009 04:42 GMT
#55
Results of playing PvZ:

WAYYYYYYY TOO HARD for Protoss to get FE safely (because of early creep colony). I think if I remove that it shouldn't be a problem.
Maybe I need to replace the Chrysalis with something else with more HP.
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