On April 22 2009 00:16 404.Delirium wrote: I was referring to baby's first drop on A Garden of GOD where it was just 3 slow vultures because he made cuts to get the sneak expo
So it seems like you were actually referring to "the 3 seconds BaBy's first dropship worth of vultures spent in JB's main before the speed upgrade finished (that drop killed maybe 2 or 3 probes btw)" (quoted from my post above).
...that drop had pretty much no effect on the game, and I'm pretty sure BaBy intended it to coincide with the speed upgrade finishing. BaBy killed maybe a few probes and lost 3 vultures...not really noteworthy, and certainly not an instance of genius play.
On April 22 2009 00:16 404.Delirium wrote: I was referring to baby's first drop on A Garden of GOD where it was just 3 slow vultures because he made cuts to get the sneak expo
So it seems like you were actually referring to "the 3 seconds BaBy's first dropship worth of vultures spent in JB's main before the speed upgrade finished (that drop killed maybe 2 or 3 probes btw)" (quoted from my post above).
...that drop had pretty much no effect on the game, and I'm pretty sure BaBy intended it to coincide with the speed upgrade finishing. BaBy killed maybe a few probes and lost 3 vultures...not really noteworthy, and certainly not an instance of genius play.
I know it didn't tip the game any. I was just spilling words from a tired brain into the box, and for some reason that drop really stuck out
That's S class TvP, too bad his TvT and TvZ is not up to part.
@JWD can you describe the definition of a Bulldog rush and bisu build please?
Comparing SC2gg's overusage of "Bisu build" with tasteless' "Bulldog" is an abysmal reasoning.
the objective of Bisu build is designed to expand and have the ability to do harrassement and easy scouting, As bisu first demonstrated it in his games vs savior.
SCGG commentators use "bisu build" on every protoss fast expo with cannon.
Objective of cannon fast expo does not always have to be harrassment (ex: instead set up a strong +1 speedlot rush, or fast goon reaver combo attack)
On the other hand, the objective of Bulldog is to break a fast expanding terran's defense.
It does not matter what building order, 2 or 3 gateway opening (originally i think bulldog is done with 3gates), does not matter if it is prox robo reaver or no reaver, the objective is the same, break that fucking terran defense, either with shuttle on top of the ramp and goons below, or elevator all goons inside terran main before picking up the reaver. Again the Objective is the same!
all Bisu builds have the same objective, all bulldog build have the same objective, if the objective of the build in question is different from the name associated with, then the commentator made an mistake. Tasteless did not make the mistake as he has focus on the objective of what a protoss can do with the fast shuttle by calling it bulldog.
I think that everyone's going black and white with this, but it more than likely was a middle ground: BaBy played impressively, he had both bad plays and great plays but he ended up playing very well overall, and on top of that, JangBi was not playing at the level that he can, be it because he didnt practice for this tournament very much, or he just had a bad run.
^Bulldog (or 4zeal shuttle, 3 gate goon) being used correctly. (the actual attack starts at 8:05)
It doesn't necessarily have to be breaking the nat. In that vod, Guemchi is breaking Up's wallin (to his main), which is what it's normally used for. After dropping the 4 zealots into his main or nat, you can carry in dragoons to further pressure the opponent.
The build is somewhat "all-in" like, so with bad micro you will probably lose all your units and lose the game. But with good micro, you'll just break the opponent (if he didn't scout the rush coming).
This is the purest, most precise description of a bulldog, but at most the term can be generalized to refer to an early-mid-game attack which is designed to break a Terran base with a combination of dragoons and zealot bombs (no reaver).
Even if Tasteless did use the term correctly (where "correctly" is according to its original definition as above) most of the time, I'd still have a nit simply because it seems like he mentions it in almost every single PvT he casts - it's just strange to hear him mention such a specific strategy when he sees a Protoss with dragoons and a shuttle, since the presence of these units in the early-mid-game rarely means a bulldog is coming.
Again, this post goes with the disclaimers I made in my earlier one.
On April 21 2009 23:52 JWD wrote: Most of the commentary was really low level in terms of strategy (that's fine, casters can be fun to listen to just for their passion for the game) but sometimes the casters totally missed clever things the players were doing - for example, in game 3 JangBi rerouted several probes away from the top mineral patches in his main so that he could safely blow up a mine with his zealot. Instead of remarking what a clever micro play that was, Tasteless and Daniel acted shocked he didn't lose any probes and spent a while talking about how risky mines near the mineral line are.
Your evidence for "REALLY LOW level in terms of strategy" is that they have totally missed clever micros.
your evidence does not support your claim, you have failed to prove "REALLY LOW level in terms of strategy" as microing zealot has nothing to do with strategy
On the other hand
My evidence for high level in terms of strategy happens in many games, i am going to just randomly pick the game i'm watching right now, Modesty vs Anytime game 3.
What tasteless and superdaniel is seeing: Anytime going 1 gate in main fast expo behind base without cannon, and harrase the zerg with the first zealot.
Superdaniel said: 1 gateway plays can be over run by many zerglings especially when the zerg over commits with the defense of early zealot harrase by making too many zerglings.
Nick said: one thing we are seeing is that Anytime is hiding a probe inside zerg base as zerg busy with the zealot, by doing so the protoss can later scout with that probe to make sure nothing tricky is being done by zerg that will fool the protoss.
example 2 What tasteless and daniel see: 2 zerglings leak inside anytime's base, so zealots wasn't Hold position on ramp.
Tasteless said: this could be very bad for protoss as the zerg can rally more and more lings into protoss base with speed upgrade and the protoss has only 1 gate teched + expoed will not be able to survive the zergling onslaughts.
Here both tasteless and superdaniel demonstrated ability to talk about what is happening and relate them to what could happen next, which strategy would be strong in these particular situations. On the example of hidden probes during zealot harrase, tasteless also explained and answered what to do to prevent an zergling allin described by supperdaniel. That probe will see all lings and no drone, therefore anytime will be able to do something about it.
I'm pretty sure i'm doing something useless here defending something does not need to be defend, but in the eyes of the newer members of starcraft community they might have believe Tasteless and Daniellee is "REALLY LOW level in terms of strategy" Which will hinder their understanding of the game, therefore the reason for me posting these is so that noobs know tasteless and Daniel are deep strategically.
I have no intention of typing all these just to prove you wrong in logic. Proving you being wrong in logic is merely an by product of my attempt to save the noobs from misinformation.
I agree. Baby played absolutely brilliantly. You hardly ever see such a consistently high level of mind games and tricky tactics out of a player in a series. Most games you see nowadays are straight forward, conceptually simple games, where the counters and options a player has are obvious. Baby was so entertaining to watch because he was unpredictable, so gathered, so intelligent and so well executed. At that timing, there's no way Jangbi could reasonably expect a hidden expo. It looked exactly like quick third play. The wraith was brilliantly calculated. He had planned to go dropship but timed it so he has the option of countering reaver play. Also, hiding and baiting the shuttle in for the wraith to kill was also brilliant, even if it almost didn't work out for him.
He played incredibly unpredictably and he really thought about every decision he was making. The only real problem in his play that I saw was that it was a common theme for his resources to get to 1500/1400 during a lot of these plays. If he can macro a bit better while still playing these intense harass games and playing as intelligently as he did in this series, then I think he's easily got a shot at a power-rank very soon.
@ 404 Nintu,I checked out his records, his tvt and tvz is not as good as his tvp, base ont hat i think he might need some more work before he can be a major player
On April 22 2009 07:37 rei wrote: @ 404 Nintu,I checked out his records, his tvt and tvz is not as good as his tvp, base ont hat i think he might need some more work before he can be a major player
But his previous TvP's weren't as impressive as vs Jangbi. Improvement like this is all about momentum, and I think that's something he has right now. The difference between his old and new is like night and day. I really think he has what it takes.
rei you're right I didn't give much evidence to back up the claim that the commentary was fairly low-level in terms of strategy insight...I felt the post was already long enough and most people would know what I was talking about. The probe micro instance I mentioned as an example, not a fact that was meant to carry the entire argument.
On April 22 2009 07:22 rei wrote: I'm pretty sure i'm doing something useless here defending something does not need to be defend, but in the eyes of the newer members of starcraft community they might have believe Tasteless and Daniellee is "REALLY LOW level in terms of strategy" Which will hinder their understanding of the game, therefore the reason for me posting these is so that noobs know tasteless and Daniel are deep strategically.
I have no intention of typing all these just to prove you wrong in logic. Proving you being wrong in logic is merely an by product of my attempt to save the noobs from misinformation.
That's pretty much right in line with what I said in the first place:
I should say that, though I don't usually enjoy GOM's English commentary, I think it appeals to a really wide audience and has been huge for the popularity of BW (watching and playing alike). Most of my complaints are probably just a product of the fact that Tasteless/DLee's commentary isn't really geared towards hardcore fans (I kind of wish it was, though!). I think Tasteless and Daniel are capable of better, higher-level commentary but just didn't see it in this series.
Anyway this is getting pretty off-topic, so if you want to talk about it more we should just use PMs
Those games were really entertaining. Baby outsmarted Jangbi but his mechanics seemed to be a little bit off- at some times you could just see that he has resources piling up while doing all the fancy stuff, forgot scanners and also had a lot of idle workers. His play was far from perfect.
On April 22 2009 06:49 rei wrote: @JWD can you describe the definition of a Bulldog rush and bisu build please?
I don't know what the hell this new definition for "bulldog" is, but it's sure not the original one. The real bulldog build was named after a Korean player by the same name back in 2003 or so. It was a pvt build centered around speeding up tech in lieu of dragoons. The robotics would always be built before the first dragoon, and the discretion of the protoss would determine how it branched from there. Sometimes one goon would be made after the robo, other times no goons at all would be made until the buildings were down. Either way, the protoss always ended up with 3 gateways, dragoon range, and observer tech. Back in this era, there was no "FD" rush, and terrans would do a slower rush if they went 2 fact. The third gate made up for the lack of early goons, and it was easy to hold the ramp against the terran rush (remember, everyone played on LT during these days, so you always had the ramp advantage).
At this point, the protoss already had a robo and 3 gates, so he could easily make a shuttle and 3 zeals and counter (I think this is where the current definition stems from). The other option was simply to double expand to the natural/min-only and just overrun the terran economically.
Nowadays, any sort of shuttle + goon attack is blanketed under the term "bulldog," but the original build was more than just an attack.
On April 22 2009 07:07 JWD wrote: Even if Tasteless did use the term correctly (where "correctly" is according to its original definition as above) most of the time, I'd still have a nit simply because it seems like he mentions it in almost every single PvT he casts - it's just strange to hear him mention such a specific strategy when he sees a Protoss with dragoons and a shuttle, since the presence of these units in the early-mid-game rarely means a bulldog is coming.
I didn't want to reply to this as my original post already covered my reasoning. However I just want to point out something tasteless and Daniel said during Game1 of Baby vs Jangbi.
Tasteless said that Baby is very young, and because he's that young the way he learn about starcraft is most likely follow what coaches told him to do. Which will create some kind of macro bot. And tasteless also pointed out that Baby might not have the innovation to create his own style simply because baby was fed macro by coaches.
as new players are feed by their mentors with "builds" i couldn't help but ponder what tasteless was talking about, because like JWD many people are pointing to a building order to define a build. I want to talk about the definition of a build. My argument is that a build is not absolute, by absolute i mean a build does not have to follow a strict number of units or building at a certain timing, based on the progress of every single game a build have different adaptation for more than one scenarios. Maybe your understanding of the game is not high enough to see what tasteless is getting at, maybe I am misunderstanding you, let me point out to you that what you have Quoted "bulldog build" is only 1 variation of the entire build that only fits one scenario. Tasteless even mentioned in Game 1 of Major vs Reach that protoss does various versions of the shuttle play in early to mid game, signifying that the Bulldog build is not absolute.
And then compare to the Fantasy build when he played jeadong in osl final,
and then compare to the fantasy build when he played during proleague,
"Fantasy build" in our discussion is not absolute. flexibility innovation and variations all depend on different maps, opponents, and scouting information. A build is not what you think it is (a fixed number of units and timing) , it is not an building order, an building order is only an small part of a build.
EPT
