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I watched the 2nd game of bisu vs best and I was in disbelief as to how this happened
+ Show Spoiler +
So the 2nd game they went same build.
except after robotics bisu go 2nd gate
while best go reaver into 3 gate
This is what I don't get. Bisu was able to expo and put up 3 more gates even before his macro from expo kick in.
While doing this he was able to pump more units than best. Enough to rape Best army with his shuttle with 2 reavers. I play T so my understanding of PvP is limited.
But what I know is if the other P go 1 gate expo like that ..
you can just go 3 gate reaver and rape that P. Bisu is just godly for being able to stop that.
Did he cut back some probes?
any gosus care to explain?
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You're forgetting the huge cost of shuttle+reaver+scarabs.
750 minerals = 6 dragoons.
Also, Best's positioning and micro was not good enough in the big battle.
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On March 14 2009 09:52 Nytefish wrote:
You're forgetting the huge cost of shuttle+reaver+scarabs.
750 minerals = 6 dragoons.
Also, Best's positioning and micro was not good enough in the big battle.
additional 3 gate = 450 minerals
so he only got 300 minerals left to use on goons.
Plus he expoed which cost him another 400 minerals.
so it doesnt add up
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is awesome32274 Posts
Did you check to see if Bisu cut probes? (to get away with the expanding).
Less probes -> less pylons too -> more minerals.
(I didnt watch the games  )
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Best added two gates too? Therefore Bisu paid for one extra gate and nexus + more units vs. Shuttle with speedupg. and 2 reavers with scarabs.
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But best put down 3 gates by the time bisu was at 4.... and he got shuttle speed by that time. basically best needed to do something with the reaver (when it first came out)
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On March 14 2009 10:05 toopham wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2009 09:52 Nytefish wrote:
You're forgetting the huge cost of shuttle+reaver+scarabs.
750 minerals = 6 dragoons.
Also, Best's positioning and micro was not good enough in the big battle. additional 3 gate = 450 minerals so he only got 300 minerals left to use on goons. Plus he expoed which cost him another 400 minerals. so it doesnt add up
Oh yeah there was shuttle speed and a support bay too. And even though bisu got +3 gates, best had to get +2 gates too. And the battle occurred closer to bisu's base, giving him a bit more time to get some more units.
There could have been probe cutting, I wasn't watching closely, I don't really remember how long bisu had his natural up for, but you can benefit from an expansion pretty quickly, especially if you're not making probes.
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I somehow doubt bisu cut probes, he was "defending" rather than attacking... unless he was about to timing attack....
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Best was simply too slow for a 3 gate goon. Bisu expo'd really quickly right after obs and got a way with it. Best's reaver drop didn't do damage, so he let the eco advantage widen. If he had used the reaver for a frontal attack with his other units, he might have got a chance (but note his 2nd and 3rd gates were really late for a timing push).
His build is late probably because he was tricked when Bisu killed his 2nd probe by moving out. Usually you would guess Bisu would use his army to distract and do a drop around it or something like that, the least you would expect is a fast expo,
For Bisu to put down the 3rd and 4th gates really quickly, it would definitely require him to cut units from his gates (which is risky because you usually want to keep pumping units to defend) and maybe some probes too.
But really, Best lost because of micro. those reavers weren't doing any splash damage.
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On March 14 2009 09:41 toopham wrote:I watched the 2nd game of bisu vs best and I was in disbelief as to how this happened + Show Spoiler +
So the 2nd game they went same build.
except after robotics bisu go 2nd gate
while best go reaver into 3 gate
This is what I don't get. Bisu was able to expo and put up 3 more gates even before his macro from expo kick in.
While doing this he was able to pump more units than best. Enough to rape Best army with his shuttle with 2 reavers. I play T so my understanding of PvP is limited.
But what I know is if the other P go 1 gate expo like that ..
you can just go 3 gate reaver and rape that P. Bisu is just godly for being able to stop that.
Did he cut back some probes?
any gosus care to explain?
its because bisu is a dragon..
+ Show Spoiler +
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Reavers placed in just an awful awful place. Terrible decision by Best to engage right then and there, plus his micro was just pretty awful. Just an awful decision to drop and engage with reavers when only like 4-5 of his dragoons were in the picture at the time.
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I actually think if anyone was cutting probes, it was Best. Bisu had a 10-12 supply advantage fairly early on and I think Best passed his econ peak.
Nevertheless, I do think if Bisu had been controlling Best's army, he would have won with that. Best kept firing the dragoons that were more or less singled out iirc, not only that, but Bisu had positional advantage to begin with.
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don't forget that Best upgraded shuttle speed
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On March 14 2009 09:52 Nytefish wrote:
You're forgetting the huge cost of shuttle+reaver+scarabs.
750 minerals = 6 dragoons.
Also, Best's positioning and micro was not good enough in the big battle.
the cost of teching to reavers (plus, remember he had shuttle speed upgraded later)
it wasn't like best went straight 3 gate goon
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On March 14 2009 11:06 fearus wrote:The answer is clear and simple: + Show Spoiler +
NOOOOOO now the thread is gonna get derailed!
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United States10774 Posts
i think bisu was able to win due to positioning and micro. he fought that battle perfectly. also, best's shuttle/reavers were somewhat caught out of position, which obviously didn't help. after seeing best's build with observer, bisu responded flawlessly by controlling probes and pumping enough units to fend off that attack.
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Not to mention Bisu floated an obs right over Best's main force while Best was coming in for the reaver micro.
Best's obs spotted it and the second half of his army lost a critical step to kill it, on a-move I assume.
Doubt Bisu knew it would have such an exaggerated effect though.
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Bisu just had better micro/placement than best in the battle at the center. Bisu's goon spread was just perfect and they were also in the upper ground for the beginning of the battle so he already had the battle advantage there. Best's goons were kinda clumped up at the top and the goons in the back were busy firing at bisu's initial zealots. Best's shuttle with reavers was also mispositioned although phenomenal micro kept them alive.. Bisu did a smart move by separating a small group of goons and having them spaced out to focus on taking down the shuttle/reaver so best's scarabs couldn't hit bisu's main group of goons where the splash would've helped a lot since those goons were actually fairly close to each other. Also, best invested money into getting shuttle speed, which was a huge waste since he didn't get a chance to harass bisu's economy at all. So bisu had him beat in investing money in the right places (more gws, going obs and opting out of reaver/shuttle tech, few zealots which helped a crapload in the center battle).
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On March 14 2009 11:06 fearus wrote:The answer is clear and simple: + Show Spoiler +
very, very close imo. he's 77-23 in his last 100 games. captured 2 titles during this time. he beat flash the last 3 games against him and went 2-3 in a bo5 with jaedong.
+ Show Spoiler +only thing standing in his way is jaedong. if he faces and beats jaedong in the osl i will personally consider him one.
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l10f
United States3241 Posts
On March 14 2009 10:32 Mobius wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2009 09:41 toopham wrote:I watched the 2nd game of bisu vs best and I was in disbelief as to how this happened + Show Spoiler +
So the 2nd game they went same build.
except after robotics bisu go 2nd gate
while best go reaver into 3 gate
This is what I don't get. Bisu was able to expo and put up 3 more gates even before his macro from expo kick in.
While doing this he was able to pump more units than best. Enough to rape Best army with his shuttle with 2 reavers. I play T so my understanding of PvP is limited.
But what I know is if the other P go 1 gate expo like that ..
you can just go 3 gate reaver and rape that P. Bisu is just godly for being able to stop that.
Did he cut back some probes?
any gosus care to explain?
its because bisu is a dragon.. + Show Spoiler +
Who kicked Best out of the 6 dragons?
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On March 14 2009 12:58 l10f wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2009 10:32 Mobius wrote:On March 14 2009 09:41 toopham wrote:I watched the 2nd game of bisu vs best and I was in disbelief as to how this happened + Show Spoiler +
So the 2nd game they went same build.
except after robotics bisu go 2nd gate
while best go reaver into 3 gate
This is what I don't get. Bisu was able to expo and put up 3 more gates even before his macro from expo kick in.
While doing this he was able to pump more units than best. Enough to rape Best army with his shuttle with 2 reavers. I play T so my understanding of PvP is limited.
But what I know is if the other P go 1 gate expo like that ..
you can just go 3 gate reaver and rape that P. Bisu is just godly for being able to stop that.
Did he cut back some probes?
any gosus care to explain?
its because bisu is a dragon.. + Show Spoiler + Who kicked Best out of the 6 dragons?
Cannibalized by another Dragon?
+ Show Spoiler +Like what Jangbi did to Stork tonight
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Best teched to shuttle speed and reavers while Bisu expanded with those money. Best failed to kill ANYTHING with his reavers and I do believe that is what costed him the game.
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Yeah that was total maphacks from Bisu, too.
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Just watched the game! too awesome! Bisu is the poop for sure!
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Epik basically covered it...
17:40-9:25=8:15 battle
Best has 8g/3z/2reaver shuttle
Bisu engaged with 10g/3z
Then he gets +3g/1z halfway though for reinforcement
Then near end of battle he gets +2goons.
So Bisu was plain ahead in units and also looked to have better positioning.
For a more in depth look at how he can have more units while expanding earlier see my guide:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88846
What caused best to play like that though? Did he think bisu would go goon/reaver attack again like the last game, and that his speedshuttle would allow some harassment even if that meant he was a bit behind in units?
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On March 14 2009 16:04 DeepGray wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2009 12:58 l10f wrote:On March 14 2009 10:32 Mobius wrote:On March 14 2009 09:41 toopham wrote:I watched the 2nd game of bisu vs best and I was in disbelief as to how this happened + Show Spoiler +
So the 2nd game they went same build.
except after robotics bisu go 2nd gate
while best go reaver into 3 gate
This is what I don't get. Bisu was able to expo and put up 3 more gates even before his macro from expo kick in.
While doing this he was able to pump more units than best. Enough to rape Best army with his shuttle with 2 reavers. I play T so my understanding of PvP is limited.
But what I know is if the other P go 1 gate expo like that ..
you can just go 3 gate reaver and rape that P. Bisu is just godly for being able to stop that.
Did he cut back some probes?
any gosus care to explain?
its because bisu is a dragon.. + Show Spoiler + Who kicked Best out of the 6 dragons? Cannibalized by another Dragon? + Show Spoiler +Like what Jangbi did to Stork tonight
DAMN IT I just got spoiled by this right before watching the match! Please consider writing the game ("MSL semi finals" for eg) cos a untitled spoiler tag in a context like this is really more like a trap.
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During an interview a while back about the taekbang era. Bisu had predicted that BeSt will be the next Bonjwa and the one to win the next OSL. Its interesting to see that Bisu is the one to knock BeSt out of the OSL.
Bisu's goon spread in that game was amazing. With his small group of goon to distract the reavers, he was able to move individual goons which were targetted by reaver away from the others so that the splash doesn't hurt him.
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EPT
