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UC Berkeley Starcraft Class - Page 22

Forum Index > BW General
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Scaramanga
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Australia8090 Posts
February 18 2009 12:28 GMT
#421
On February 18 2009 08:54 raohthekenoh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2009 21:39 Scaramanga wrote:
On February 14 2009 05:39 raohthekenoh wrote:
well I play more fighting games than Star Craft so I suppose what I say may not make sense or be accurate to the situation. What Sirlin is saying, Or trying to say at least, is that a strategy game is basically a battle of wits, we just use the game as sort of an intermediary to find out whoever is better ( which is true, although I won't disagree that I find him an annoying person).

I think things like MBS are good things though, reducing redundant actions will only make good players better in the long run. and if putting in MBS reduces the best of players to the chaff then maybe Starcraft wasn't as good a game as you thought in the beginning.

The real problem is that you would need to find a balance between the number of clicks required to get a positive return. you'd not be happy if every time you sent your miners to gather resources, you THEN had to order them to drop it off at the base, and then go back out to the mineral deposits to get more minerals. But the player who could do that and still play the game would certainly be the best of SC players right? I guess it's all looking at where to draw the line rather than a strict right or wrong idea.

Although I'd hate for SC to become something like Smash brothers so maybe i'm completely wrong.


I thought i'd point out where you went wrong and where you went right. Read what other people have said in this thread and you will find out why your wrong
just a quick question if starcraft wasnt as good a game as you thought then why is it the most watched and played game today? after ten years?


well if you had read what I said I didn't say starcraft wasn't as good a game as I thought it was (you have no idea what I think of SC) I was simply saying that if you put in MBS and a bunch of really good players aren't so good anymore, then the game probably didn't have as much depth as you thought it did.

People still play and watch Smash Brothers Melee stuff and it's been... about 8 years now, and people still watch Super Turbo Matches and it's been around for OVER 10 years. I don't really think time makes it into a good game automatically. And that's not to say that it's not a good game, that is to say that if your only argument that it is good is that lots of people play it, that's a pretty crummy argument.

Even if only 2 people played SC, it wouldn't make it a bad game, it may be the most technically deep and wonderful game in the world but just not played enough. Most people who trash things like MBS do it completely arbitrarily because thats what the good players tell them, or people they think are good players tell them. Like I said, you wouldn't want to manually control all your units to mine minerals and then manually move them back to base, but if you could do that and still build up your army you'd really be a great player at SC.

I wouldn't want the computer to do everything for me, but when it's something as trivial as putting units on the board, I'd like the convenience of being able to build from them simultaneously and setting rally points.

If they removed the "unnecessary clicking" from the game I don't think the pros would just suddenly be unseated. Strategy continues to evolve, and knowing a strategy, and knowing how to precisely input a strategy are two different things entirely and what is probably what really separates pros and everyone else. if some Monster APM player finds that he can't compete in SC2 at all, then he really wasn't implementing the strategy part of the strategy game.

APM should be a huge asset in combat, in base building, I'd err on the side of convenience. Wow and I said all that without even being rude to you.


Heres the thing, SC has struck a balance between macro and micro, thats why it is such a good rts game and there are not many out there, i honestly dont mind if they change the balance between the races through units and spells and such but when you start to take away or in this case add things that are changing the mechanics of the game a little too much then i dont think its a good idea, if you change it too drasticly which is what mbs is doing then it isnt starcraft it becomes something else,
Loda talked about the fun counter, it's AdmiralBulldog on his natures prophet
Error Ash
Profile Joined July 2008
Germany177 Posts
February 20 2009 02:23 GMT
#422
Hey guys whats up? Class 4 is already done and still no info on class 2 and 3?! Whats happening? Need more information
TSL-Lore
Profile Joined January 2009
United States412 Posts
February 20 2009 07:44 GMT
#423
they failed to record class 2. Class 3 was recorded and will be posted shortly. Class 4 was also recorded but not all of it (camera ran out of batteries)
I want to become stronger. -Shindou Hikaru
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27140 Posts
February 20 2009 07:55 GMT
#424
On February 18 2009 08:54 raohthekenoh wrote:
well if you had read what I said I didn't say starcraft wasn't as good a game as I thought it was (you have no idea what I think of SC) I was simply saying that if you put in MBS and a bunch of really good players aren't so good anymore, then the game probably didn't have as much depth as you thought it did.


It isn't about making good players bad, it is about removing the criteria for what makes players good. There becomes a great squishing of the skillset.

If you lower the basketball hoop to 7 feet, all of a sudden being tall isn't that big of a deal.
ModeratorGodfather
Moletrap
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1297 Posts
February 20 2009 13:12 GMT
#425
I was going to try to make it to class 4 tonight.. but I was already running late, and when I got on the freeway it was doing it's parking lot impersonation. So rather than sit in traffic for 3 hours and arrive when the class was just ending, I stayed home.

How'd it go?
aka Moletrap
TSL-Lore
Profile Joined January 2009
United States412 Posts
February 21 2009 00:58 GMT
#426
i think it went very well. The first hour was mostly derivations and calculus. The 2nd hour was about zerg and terran army movement and why its important. We looked at a few replays and analyzed them. Sirlin wrote up a summary here:

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/20/uc-berkeley-starcraft-class-week-4.html?lastPage=true#comment2998758
I want to become stronger. -Shindou Hikaru
Lan14n
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1 Post
February 27 2009 21:48 GMT
#427
Hi! Are there any updates from the class?
Nimue
Profile Joined November 2007
United States34 Posts
March 01 2009 11:31 GMT
#428
Need help:

We have the raw footage from the second video available for upload. my webmaster should have it ready in a few hours.

The only problem: it's 9 gb for 40 minutes. I'm looking for a volunteer to compress it down to the 300mb it should be and send it back to us or something.
Invictus
Bill307
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
Canada9103 Posts
March 01 2009 19:55 GMT
#429
On February 18 2009 08:54 raohthekenoh wrote:
People still play and watch Smash Brothers Melee stuff and it's been... about 8 years now, and people still watch Super Turbo Matches and it's been around for OVER 10 years. I don't really think time makes it into a good game automatically. And that's not to say that it's not a good game, that is to say that if your only argument that it is good is that lots of people play it, that's a pretty crummy argument.

Did you seriously just call the best objective measurement of a game's success and greatness -- its sustained popularity over a long period of time -- "a pretty crummy argument"?
Nimue
Profile Joined November 2007
United States34 Posts
March 04 2009 10:20 GMT
#430
lecture 3 is available for viewing or downloading at berkeleystarcraft.com
Invictus
liger13
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1060 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-06 21:47:23
March 06 2009 21:46 GMT
#431
or youtube

thnx so much for putting it up.. whoever did it

edit: holy ****... so thats how you integrate a youtube video... sweet
didnt know it was that easy.
I feel like pwning noobs
Moletrap
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1297 Posts
April 05 2009 00:51 GMT
#432
Lecture 4 on youtube, now. The camera is very shaky in the beginning but give it a couple minutes and it gets better for most of the lecture.

aka Moletrap
Nimue
Profile Joined November 2007
United States34 Posts
April 05 2009 06:28 GMT
#433
thank you moletrap for uploading
Invictus
n-o0O-b
Profile Joined April 2009
United States54 Posts
April 08 2009 07:12 GMT
#434
yay more lectures!!
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-08 09:21:54
April 08 2009 09:05 GMT
#435
OH awesome, I hope the lecture where he shows the manner gas trick is up soon too. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90919

PS- Wow week 4 is just wtf for the first minute. Why didn't you just set the camera down lmao.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Moletrap
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1297 Posts
April 10 2009 00:55 GMT
#436
Np. I don't believe lecture 5 was recorded, but lecture 6 is up...



I also made a playlist with all of the lectures in order, in case someone wants to watch 4 hours of lectures in a row..
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=8F6C117EDAE9EF2E
aka Moletrap
nataziel
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Australia1455 Posts
April 10 2009 03:46 GMT
#437
On April 10 2009 09:55 f10esqftw wrote:
I also made a playlist with all of the lectures in order, in case someone wants to watch 4 hours of lectures in a row..
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=8F6C117EDAE9EF2E


Oh gawd don't tempt me
u gotta sk8
Nimue
Profile Joined November 2007
United States34 Posts
April 10 2009 07:16 GMT
#438
I guess I'll answer it here instead of in the other thread (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90919) apparently I don't have enough "rights" or something to comment on that one.

Anyways, sorry for the misleading. I tried it a couple times myself, and indeed it no longer works. However, I swear, back in like 1.14 or something like that, it worked at least once. Sirlin did not get anything wrong or misunderstand anything; any mistakes that he posts are my own.

Maybe I'll keep searching for a way to make it work -.-
Invictus
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3696 Posts
April 10 2009 07:25 GMT
#439
Doesn't work in 1.09, so I highly doubt it ever worked in 1.14 either.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
ucbEntilZha
Profile Joined May 2010
United States96 Posts
May 27 2010 23:12 GMT
#440
Right after seeing this I thought it was awesome. My question though is that I will be a Berkeley freshman this year and would like to take this class, but where would I find the info on it if it is being held again?
UC Berkeley CSL | http://www.cstarleague.com/league/teams/76 | follow us at justin.tv/ucberkeleycsl
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