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On February 07 2009 02:35 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Personally I'm not gonna judge MBS (multiple building selection) as bad (although I started off as a fervent opponent of it) until I've played the game for an extensive period of time - it's entirely possible that the game will have just as much room for better players to differentiate themselves, and that the game will be just as difficult.
What really worries me is that we have all of these typically less knowledgable players who consider replacing the difficult execution aspect of the game with more abilities or strategies or neat looking spells or new race-specific content(without the purpose of increasing multitasking) as equivalent. They will argue that the game will become just as easy to differentiate yourself from others with, although by outstrategizing your opponent instead of also having an execution component to it.
To me all this accomplishes is taking out a crucial aspect of the game that has kept Starcraft the exciting, fast paced, and ever growing competitive game it is. There is so much room for improvement the game will never get stagnant unless the player does.
I think the typical gamer would agree with a lot of the decisions that make the game easier to play, although I think they would be making a mistake not only for the competitive players but for themselves. Of course an easier game will be faster to pick up but Starcraft has never been a game new players couldn't mess around in and enjoy. Requiring good execution at competitive level play will obviously make the game more fun to competitors, and possibly even make the game more fun to even the average player (even if they wouldn't have guessed it beforehand). Sadly removing or dumbing it down would completely shoot the hopes of any scene that could reach the level of SC imo, and would likely remove the line between "competitive" playing and casual playing.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On February 07 2009 01:29 [Noman] wrote:
(Yes, this is my post here and I'm posting here because I found a link to this discussion on sirlin.net. No, I am not sirlin.)
I do think there is some fanboyism in this argument. It is natural since this is a starcraft site, but most people here think they are being objective. This is how I see it :
The biggest argument I've seen here is that taking away APM advantages takes away from the skill of the game. Its true!
You people are acting like he said 'Remove any strategic option from the game that isn't technically simple / requires a high APM in order to achieve'. HE DID NOT SAY THAT.
What he would like, is for operations that can be made easier using a slightly different interface to be made easier.
Unit construction comes to mind : If a terran built 6 barracks and wanted to pump out 6 marines fast (1 from each barracks) he would have to either hotkey 6 different barracks or perform around 13 actions (go to location hotkey + click each barracks with mouse then marine shortcut). In the heat of the battle, especially while microing units that are currently fighting, you need to be good technically. (Feel free to reply with 'If you cant do that then go play simpler games' etc).
Here's an option that blizzard can add in SC2 (Don't know if they did) : Group buildings. If you group a few buildings together (that you obviously built for the same task) to a shared hotkey, it should be possible to select the group, press M (or whatever) six times, and one marine would start being produced from each barracks. Much easier. 7 Actions, but only 2 'sets of same action', instead of 12/13 originally.
Updating the rally point of the 6 barracks (which you'd probably want to change all of them if you change one) will also become a much easier task.
I honestly believe that changes like these do not take any depth away from the game. They just make it easier to do things that are strategically just one action, but translate to much more in the game.
I think that this is the point that Sirlin was steering to as well.
Please try to see what he's really trying to say rather than escaping to "He's an APM hater because he's too sloppy for the game he sucks".
HAHAHAHAHAAHHh
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On February 07 2009 03:20 TSL-Lore wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2009 14:24 systranerror wrote:
Sirlin made Kongai at kongregate.com, wrote some book about fighting game theory (that he tries to ineffectively apply to other genres of games), and worked on Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD. He wrote that "playing to win" article that is pretty popular. I like his attitude when it comes to fighting games, but he really pisses me off when he talks about Starcraft.
He has created this "theory" of how games should work. He can't find out how to fit Starcraft into his theory, and so rather than modifying his theory to apply to Starcraft he'd rather change Starcraft to fit into his theory. The fact that he actually raised his hand and said "what about yomi... the japanese word for--" and then actually just HAD TO SAY "I wrote a book about it and made a card game based on it" made him look like a sperging nerd who can't be taken very seriously outside of his asperger realm of fighting games/card games based on fighting games.
It's also interesting to note that his card game, Kongai, I heard from an unreliable source (don't care to research this), that the top ranked player in that game just made some formula which he uses completely mathematically and it wins for him almost all the time. The game is basically Sirlin's theory in action, and while it is sort of fun, the fact that it focuses so much on YOMI (gotta roll eyes when I type that) makes it pretty boring. The element of reading your opponent in a good fighting game or in Starcraft is fun because so much other stuff is going on, in Kongai it's pretty much the only thing you can do, and therefore it becomes way overplayed and almost random (i.e. "Ok I think he's going to switch out... but he knows I know that... so I'm not going to do that... but he knows etc. etc.) Yeah its really easy to tell hes very arrogant and wants to take as much credit as he can about those things he "designed." I especially like how his webpage has that nav bar that says "GAMES I DESIGNED AND BALANCED" and street fighter HD remix is listed. Then i look at the changes he made to the game and its just making hadukens easier to execute on the damn controller. How the hell is that a game that YOU DESIGNED? what an arrogant bastard. Nimue talked a bit about unit animations in starcraft at yesterday's lecture and actually asked Sirlin if he could explain what unit animations are and why they might be important. Sirlin says "isn't it self explanatory?" .. yeah, you're real smart man. Anyways, back to the original topic, its unfortunate that lecture 2 wasn't recorded. It was a good lecture.
Yes he is arrogant. But don't bash him more than he deserves. Tha nav bar says "Games I have designed and balanced". He Balanced Street Fighter HDR, not designed it completely and i don't think that he ever took credit for designing SF (and now don't get into semantics saying "it says designed AND balanced", yes it does, but anything else sounds stupid or is too long...it's just a fricking webpage...). Also there is more than he did than only making moves easier, he adjusted timings of attacks and stuff that you can't really know about if you are not into that game (the same goes for starcraft, someone who has no idea about the game has no right to say "make Siege Tanks more expensive, they are imba", thats just stupid).
But yes, the more i read on his page, the more i think he is a total arrogant bastard. But that doesn't make him a bad game designer and he has some really interesting stuff on hist page, which i am thankful that he shared it. I would never want to have to do anything personal with him or work with him. That would be a pain in the ass.
So just leave him be, discussing with him won't get you anywhere because he thinks he is always right. Read his oppinions about stuff, and take them as those. He has no impact on StarCraft game design/development, so just let him think that APM is bad for a RTS, and have your own oppinion. Saying stuff like "rip him another..." just makes you look like an 11 year old...
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
Why? Putting arrogant retards in their places is fun. Thats what life is all about man.
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Yeah, I agree with Error Ash. I actually had a discussion with him in comments on his Week 1 blog and it didn't end well, but I never resorted to name calling. He actually called me a jackass and started to ignore me because I made a comment on how the companies Apple and Google shouldn't make the user interface for Starcraft, but that Blizzard should. Not sure why he took that so personally. He definitely thinks he is always right though... very annoying.
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Don't take sirlin too seriously he thinks he has a "time stopping power" that he uses in fighting games.
So if I had zero real practice, why would I think I was more able to win than ever? Because I had a trick up my sleeve. Not winning the whole thing makes for a pretty lame story, but that's what we're stuck with. The trick: perceiving that time has slowed down.
I have always relied on this ability. How is it that my low strongs in SF Alpha 2 seem to beat other people's low strongs? How is it that my dragon punches seemed to hit other dragon punches (doing them 1 or 2 frames later means you can hit theirs...).
I was able to use my time-power. During a few critical moments, time passed very slowly, and I was even able to notice a couple times when I simulated what might happen if I did X, decided that I didn't like the simulation's answer, then did something else and was successful.
Why did he lose a tournament? Because his power stopped working
The next day, I did play Nuki on stage. I was not worried at all, and believed that I would beat him for sure. Playing in front of a huge audience does not rattle me, so that would not be a factor. I thought Vega was a more logical choice, but I felt Bison was a better choice for some reason I couldn't explain. Character choice wouldn't matter much anyway, it would be a battle of timing and who could see through the fog of double-blind. So I played Nuki...but...at normal speed. I don't know, I just couldn't get it going. No slow-time, no super power from me. Our rounds were close, but Nuki defeated me pretty handily.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On February 07 2009 00:47 Nimue wrote:
no one taped the second lecture -.-
my camcorder has not arrived yet, and gamepro did not show up.
I think next week, we'll be back on the air because my camcorder will have shown up by then.
I would like to see it! Godspeed to your camcorder!
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CA10828 Posts
LOL excellent quote systranerror
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Does anyone ever get the urge to compare Starcraft to (American) football? I don't know much about football, but based on the way people talk about it, it sounds like it's a very strategic game through formations/playcalling etc.
Maybe that analogy sucks, but to me I feel like removing APM would be like an NFL where the players aren't all ~300 lbs and lift weights :s
People seem to think that just because there is the term "strategy" in the genre title that it can't have any physical components. Starcraft wouldn't be as great as it is without its fast pace.
This stuff just pisses me off :s sorry for rambling
Wow @ quote. Sirlin is the Neo of SF
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On February 07 2009 04:52 systranerror wrote:Don't take sirlin too seriously he thinks he has a "time stopping power" that he uses in fighting games. Show nested quote +So if I had zero real practice, why would I think I was more able to win than ever? Because I had a trick up my sleeve. Not winning the whole thing makes for a pretty lame story, but that's what we're stuck with. The trick: perceiving that time has slowed down.
I have always relied on this ability. How is it that my low strongs in SF Alpha 2 seem to beat other people's low strongs? How is it that my dragon punches seemed to hit other dragon punches (doing them 1 or 2 frames later means you can hit theirs...). Show nested quote +I was able to use my time-power. During a few critical moments, time passed very slowly, and I was even able to notice a couple times when I simulated what might happen if I did X, decided that I didn't like the simulation's answer, then did something else and was successful. Why did he lose a tournament? Because his power stopped working Show nested quote +The next day, I did play Nuki on stage. I was not worried at all, and believed that I would beat him for sure. Playing in front of a huge audience does not rattle me, so that would not be a factor. I thought Vega was a more logical choice, but I felt Bison was a better choice for some reason I couldn't explain. Character choice wouldn't matter much anyway, it would be a battle of timing and who could see through the fog of double-blind. So I played Nuki...but...at normal speed. I don't know, I just couldn't get it going. No slow-time, no super power from me. Our rounds were close, but Nuki defeated me pretty handily.
LOL it ALL makes sense now
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As I am watching the recording of the very first class I just wanna thank all of those contributing and making it public. Very much appreciated.
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On February 07 2009 04:02 Intervigilium wrote:
Sirlin just keep the "this is a straw-man argument" instead of debate the arguments in a proper manner. I lost my respect for that guy.
I also think that small dogs are larger than elephants!
Are Strawman arguments debating in a proper manner.
Also, seeing as everyone knows small dogs are smaller than elephants, you are wrong.
you really have two options now. call me on misquoting you horribly or "debate the arguments in a proper manner" and simply admit you were wrong to make such a falicious claim.
Also, for those who don't know: HDR was a lot more than a simple 'easier move inputs.' The game had a lot of paradigm shifting mechanic changes, such as giving characters who normally flat out lost to fireball characters, more options. The idea was never to balance the game; a top tier ST char should still be top tier in HDR, but it was meant to flatten the band. A good example is allowing bottom tier character cammy's 'spinng back fist.' to pass through fireballs. she's still bottom tier, but beating her actually requires some thought. Now it's like she's playing rock paper scissors with a negative expected value. before she was just playing Rock/Scissors with negative expected value. Ryu still wins, but he doesn't win because he only ever chooses rock.
While HDR is not exactly Street Fighter:Brood Wars, it's obvious how small changes can provide a lot more options for a game. Think of terrans without medic and terrans with medic. I wouldn't say any HDR changes are that drastic (jab headbutt passing through fireballs help though : P )
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Sirlin definitely did a lot to make HDR a great game. Imagine if one of the Korean progamers had game design experience, the community would definitely want him helping on SC2. Sirlin basically was there making sure the game transitioned well and would work out for the community. An example I can pull out of my ass would be how they managed widescreen implementation; they basically made it pan and zoom if you wanted to play in widescreen. This allowed people who "just wanted their whole screen used" to do that, and people who cared about seeing the proper amount of the game at once to do that with bars on the side. I think Sirlin probably made sure things like this got through and that designers didn't cater too much to "causal players" demands or expectations. Without a player who cared about the ST scene and played at a high-level himself on the team it could have turned out really shitty.
The problem I have with Sirlin is that he doesn't have this use for Starcraft as he's never really played it. His game design experience is valid and his "playing to win" attitude is good; I just don't think he really understands Starcraft as much as he'd like to admit. It would be humbling for someone who is a game designer and a big name in one community to be just another sub D rank player with ideas that won't work in another community. I think if he just learns more about Starcraft and plays more himself he will hopefully revise some of his views, because frankly this idea of "you can't play SC at a high level with less than 250APM, therefore only those with a certain physical ability can play" is total bullshit. The biggest hinderance to having effective 250+APM is not physical ability it's multitasking and knowing what to do with those actions.
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I'm watching the lecture now. It's really interesting. Not bad at all for a first time teaching/presenting material in front of a large group. A little shaky which makes it kind of nerve-wracking to follow, but Alan's a true pioneer in doing this and can only mean great things for esports in the future. Congrats!
lol at someones phone going off. kick their ass out
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Wow, nice job Nimue, Yosh and others I guess this must have been hell of a work to make this happen.
The first four minutes you sound totally like Bruce Lee 
And - don't wanna to spoil your fun but don't you wanna discuss sirlin in some other thread?
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Part of the problem here IMO is that you guys are taking Sirlin's arguments out of context and using them for what you want them to be. And then bashing them with sheer volume of words. Maybe I'll just single out Rekrul since everyone else seems to be as well.
Putting retards in their place? Well said. Do you really think this is what you did?
All that's being done here is people are taking a general statement and using specific examples (and a lot of useless chatter) to combat it. This takes discussions way off track which means that while it'll be about whatever you make it out to be, the point is lost.
In general, nothing Rekrul said has any practical meaning. There's no reason why APM is needed, just specific examples of when it gives an advantage. There's no proof that such a game will get boring after one year, that's just speculation based on other games. There was no link to those games having a lower APM or anything like that. There was no substance in his argument. Or maybe I missed it amid all the banter. I'm not sure.
In addition, Sirlin's arguments were taken out of context and adjusted accordingly. Does he ever say that APM should be removed? I'd like to see it. Does APM need to be reduced? I don't know the answer to that, but did he say that directly?
I like Seku's post a lot and some of the questions it raises. I was most interested when he said...
"To me all this accomplishes is taking out a crucial aspect of the game that has kept Starcraft the exciting, fast paced, and ever growing competitive game it is. There is so much room for improvement the game will never get stagnant unless the player does."
Most people agree that removing the physical capabilities of Starcraft would make it a boring game. I disagree that it would be boring, but it certainly wouldn't be Starcraft. However, people seem to be proposing that Starcraft would be better if the game were harder to play. Can you imagine the APM needed if you weren't able to select groups of units?
But again, that's just a specific example of a general point. The point is that there is nothing wrong with making a game easier to play. You don't have to sacrifice APM requirements to do this. The best design IMO would be one where anyone can do any strategy easily, but the people who train themselves physically can execute it more efficiently or accurately.
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is awesome32274 Posts
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"The best design IMO would be one where anyone can do any strategy easily, but the people who train themselves physically can execute it more efficiently or accurately."
I completely disagree here.
One of the most interesting aspects of learning StarCraft is the fact that as you get better at mechanics and start to understand things better, the spectrum of strategies you can employ changes - it's neither wider nor narrower, it's just different.
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he actually did say APM needs to reward players less. He never responds when people tell him players like stork and savior can top with less APM.. it's like he's got selective hearing, or in this case, selective sight.
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On February 07 2009 05:20 psymunn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2009 04:02 Intervigilium wrote:
Sirlin just keep the "this is a straw-man argument" instead of debate the arguments in a proper manner. I lost my respect for that guy.
I also think that small dogs are larger than elephants! Are Strawman arguments debating in a proper manner. Also, seeing as everyone knows small dogs are smaller than elephants, you are wrong. you really have two options now. call me on misquoting you horribly or "debate the arguments in a proper manner" and simply admit you were wrong to make such a falicious claim. Also, I think I have sand in my vagina
hello sirlin. please go fuck yourself.
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EPT
