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UC Berkeley Starcraft Class - Page 16
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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Julmust
Sweden4867 Posts
The replay you upped on the site (http://berkeleystarcraft.com/) is 1.15.3 I think, cause it fucks up for me. I'll be doing the course from the videos and the homework :D just for myself | ||
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Fzero
United States1503 Posts
I don't think it is a stretch for someone to make observations about the class they are taking without completely understanding what they are doing. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10596 Posts
A person with no mechanical skill but GREAT strategical skill should beat a person with good mechanics and good strategical skill. Which is just wrong when it comes to RTS. He wnats RTS to play like round based games, therefore he can't win this argument. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
I think the problem Sirlin has with Starcraft is that it doesn't fit his definition of a "strategy" game so he tries to modify it to fit the definition. He doesn't grasp the fact that Starcraft is superior to other RTS games BEACUSE it's so different. | ||
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Kim_Hyun_Han
706 Posts
i realy felt great when i read this, blizzard created more than a game with brood war, they will have to spend all their creativity and imagination to make star2 reach the place brood war is now, cheers for pardo and blizzard designers @rekrul ftw | ||
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Nimue
United States34 Posts
my camcorder has not arrived yet, and gamepro did not show up. I think next week, we'll be back on the air because my camcorder will have shown up by then. | ||
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[Noman]
19 Posts
I do think there is some fanboyism in this argument. It is natural since this is a starcraft site, but most people here think they are being objective. This is how I see it : The biggest argument I've seen here is that taking away APM advantages takes away from the skill of the game. Its true! You people are acting like he said 'Remove any strategic option from the game that isn't technically simple / requires a high APM in order to achieve'. HE DID NOT SAY THAT. What he would like, is for operations that can be made easier using a slightly different interface to be made easier. Unit construction comes to mind : If a terran built 6 barracks and wanted to pump out 6 marines fast (1 from each barracks) he would have to either hotkey 6 different barracks or perform around 13 actions (go to location hotkey + click each barracks with mouse then marine shortcut). In the heat of the battle, especially while microing units that are currently fighting, you need to be good technically. (Feel free to reply with 'If you cant do that then go play simpler games' etc). Here's an option that blizzard can add in SC2 (Don't know if they did) : Group buildings. If you group a few buildings together (that you obviously built for the same task) to a shared hotkey, it should be possible to select the group, press M (or whatever) six times, and one marine would start being produced from each barracks. Much easier. 7 Actions, but only 2 'sets of same action', instead of 12/13 originally. Updating the rally point of the 6 barracks (which you'd probably want to change all of them if you change one) will also become a much easier task. I honestly believe that changes like these do not take any depth away from the game. They just make it easier to do things that are strategically just one action, but translate to much more in the game. I think that this is the point that Sirlin was steering to as well. Please try to see what he's really trying to say rather than escaping to "He's an APM hater because he's too sloppy for the game he sucks". | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
edit: ok i'll elaborate. [Noman] that idea you talked about with building groups is one that has been talked about a lot before. Type MBS in the search bar and you might be able to find some threads about it (there have been lots of discussions on this). | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
you're a fuckin genius | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
We are trying to explain that since he doesn't play starcraft at a high enough level he can not understand the importance and value it brings to the game and why it must be kept as opposed to removed by interface "features" like MBS/Automine/Increased selection cap. This is basically it right? o.o | ||
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Zalfor
United States1035 Posts
anyone wanna get back to the class? | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On February 07 2009 01:29 [Noman] wrote: (Yes, this is my post here and I'm posting here because I found a link to this discussion on sirlin.net. No, I am not sirlin.) I do think there is some fanboyism in this argument. It is natural since this is a starcraft site, but most people here think they are being objective. This is how I see it : The biggest argument I've seen here is that taking away APM advantages takes away from the skill of the game. Its true! You people are acting like he said 'Remove any strategic option from the game that isn't technically simple / requires a high APM in order to achieve'. HE DID NOT SAY THAT. What he would like, is for operations that can be made easier using a slightly different interface to be made easier. Unit construction comes to mind : If a terran built 6 barracks and wanted to pump out 6 marines fast (1 from each barracks) he would have to either hotkey 6 different barracks or perform around 13 actions (go to location hotkey + click each barracks with mouse then marine shortcut). In the heat of the battle, especially while microing units that are currently fighting, you need to be good technically. (Feel free to reply with 'If you cant do that then go play simpler games' etc). Here's an option that blizzard can add in SC2 (Don't know if they did) : Group buildings. If you group a few buildings together (that you obviously built for the same task) to a shared hotkey, it should be possible to select the group, press M (or whatever) six times, and one marine would start being produced from each barracks. Much easier. 7 Actions, but only 2 'sets of same action', instead of 12/13 originally. Updating the rally point of the 6 barracks (which you'd probably want to change all of them if you change one) will also become a much easier task. I honestly believe that changes like these do not take any depth away from the game. They just make it easier to do things that are strategically just one action, but translate to much more in the game. I think that this is the point that Sirlin was steering to as well. Please try to see what he's really trying to say rather than escaping to "He's an APM hater because he's too sloppy for the game he sucks". Hi, welcome to TL. This feature has been added to SC2, to the dismay of many (as well as the joy of many others  ).The reason it's not universally heralded as great is that it greatly reduces the physical aspect of production, essentially allowing you to do all production from afar, meaning you never have to leave the sight of your army (while in SC you have to constantly dart across the map, keeping track of expansions and buildings). Removing physical skill components gives players less room to differentiate themselves, so in order for the game to not get shallower you will need some form of replacement (ie you need to have something else you can do with all this free time). Many people are not convinced that SC2 has this yet, so ideas like this one are proposed. Making the UI better is fine, to a point, but this is Starcraft - a physical game, and if you are going to take something away you better add something new for me to do.. Personally I'm not gonna judge MBS (multiple building selection) as bad (although I started off as a fervent opponent of it) until I've played the game for an extensive period of time - it's entirely possible that the game will have just as much room for better players to differentiate themselves, and that the game will be just as difficult. | ||
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Error Ash
Germany177 Posts
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On February 06 2009 14:24 systranerror wrote: Sirlin made Kongai at kongregate.com, wrote some book about fighting game theory (that he tries to ineffectively apply to other genres of games), and worked on Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD. He wrote that "playing to win" article that is pretty popular. I like his attitude when it comes to fighting games, but he really pisses me off when he talks about Starcraft. He has created this "theory" of how games should work. He can't find out how to fit Starcraft into his theory, and so rather than modifying his theory to apply to Starcraft he'd rather change Starcraft to fit into his theory. The fact that he actually raised his hand and said "what about yomi... the japanese word for--" and then actually just HAD TO SAY "I wrote a book about it and made a card game based on it" made him look like a sperging nerd who can't be taken very seriously outside of his asperger realm of fighting games/card games based on fighting games. It's also interesting to note that his card game, Kongai, I heard from an unreliable source (don't care to research this), that the top ranked player in that game just made some formula which he uses completely mathematically and it wins for him almost all the time. The game is basically Sirlin's theory in action, and while it is sort of fun, the fact that it focuses so much on YOMI (gotta roll eyes when I type that) makes it pretty boring. The element of reading your opponent in a good fighting game or in Starcraft is fun because so much other stuff is going on, in Kongai it's pretty much the only thing you can do, and therefore it becomes way overplayed and almost random (i.e. "Ok I think he's going to switch out... but he knows I know that... so I'm not going to do that... but he knows etc. etc.) Yeah its really easy to tell hes very arrogant and wants to take as much credit as he can about those things he "designed." I especially like how his webpage has that nav bar that says "GAMES I DESIGNED AND BALANCED" and street fighter HD remix is listed. Then i look at the changes he made to the game and its just making hadukens easier to execute on the damn controller. How the hell is that a game that YOU DESIGNED? what an arrogant bastard. Nimue talked a bit about unit animations in starcraft at yesterday's lecture and actually asked Sirlin if he could explain what unit animations are and why they might be important. Sirlin says "isn't it self explanatory?" .. yeah, you're real smart man. Anyways, back to the original topic, its unfortunate that lecture 2 wasn't recorded. It was a good lecture. | ||
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iloahz
United States964 Posts
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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/6/uc-berkeley-starcraft-class-week-2.html#comment2915299 | ||
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Intervigilium
5 Posts
What happens when you get a pro with 300-400 APM and removes the need of going to the base to queue new units? If you have MBS, these pros will be EVEN BETTER, and will steamroll everyone with lower APM, because he can use this extra APM to micro even better, to expand more and so on. Automine is ok IMO, queue buildings too(like in war3. I know we have it in starcraft, but you need to queue after it starts the first building). Like everyone said here, starcraft is all about efficiency. If someone can use their time better than you, you deserves to lose. And how can you improve efficiency? With higher APM. | ||
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psymunn
5 Posts
hello, can someone please make sure sirlin gets this For someone so good at Starcraft, Rekrul is really bad at the internet... or are you using the more skill intensive DNS free internet the kids these days are touting. try www.sirlin.net. then you can actually see what opinions you are disagreeing with | ||
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