Sirlin is talking out of his ass.

He's like a programmer trying to explain the intricacies of the human brain. Sure, it's sort of like a computer, so you may sound profound when you're talking about logic gates and neural networking and parallel processing, but in the end you're not a neurologist and you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

cgrinker

United States3824 Posts

February 05 2009 06:27 GMT

#244

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG I DIDN"T KNOW!

Tsagacity

United States2124 Posts

February 05 2009 06:48 GMT

#245

On February 05 2009 07:59 TSL-Lore wrote:
I'm starting to post a lot on his comments and am now getting his attention. I just don't think he's played enough competitive starcraft (if any at all) to boast about wanting to redesign the game to make it better.

Ask what his iccup rank is!

Rekrul

Korea (South)17174 Posts

February 05 2009 07:06 GMT

#246

This Sirlin kid is a dumbfuck. Why are you guys even talking about the nonsense he spews?

TSL-Lore

United States412 Posts

February 05 2009 18:40 GMT

#247

He got really frustrated with my comments and said "i think its safe to ignore you now."

I guess he just has to have his way. He doesn't want to listen to anyone about the values of classic Starcraft because he doesn't play it and he thinks he can make it better. It's not exactly the best crowd (people who visit his blog) to argue my point of view so I think Rekrul is right, no need to continue talking to such a fool.

Excalibur_Z

United States12248 Posts

February 05 2009 19:01 GMT

#248

On February 06 2009 03:40 TSL-Lore wrote:
He got really frustrated with my comments and said "i think its safe to ignore you now."

I guess he just has to have his way. He doesn't want to listen to anyone about the values of classic Starcraft because he doesn't play it and he thinks he can make it better. It's not exactly the best crowd (people who visit his blog) to argue my point of view so I think Rekrul is right, no need to continue talking to such a fool.

A friend of mine agrees with Sirlin and argues pretty much his same point of view. The argument is that because Starcraft is a game of strategy, no physical limitations should be put in place because that excludes players with weak mechanics and superior strategy, potentially increasing the competitive userbase. The flaw in that argument is that even though SC is a strategy game, there is more to it than strategy alone, and mechanics end up playing a big part. Sirlin likes to take it a step further by creating a hypothetical situation where the game is played with a neural interface and the player can issue orders and see the entire map (excluding the fog of war), and claims that Starcraft played in this way would be just as exciting but would be based entirely on strategic ability. All of the arguments we provided are ignored or hyperbolized (mainly where we claim speed to be a resource) because he refuses to debate outside of the hypothetical arena which he has created.

So really, it's like arguing with a handicap because you have to identify why he's wrong and why you're right. The problem is that he's not wrong (I think he's right that neural Starcraft would still make the game interesting to watch), but there's more to Starcraft than strategy alone, and he refuses to acknowledge this.

Rekrul

Korea (South)17174 Posts

February 05 2009 19:07 GMT

#249

Umm he's not right at all, a neutral starcraft would result in very boring repetitive games.

I can rip him a new asshole if you'd like. LOL.

TSL-Lore

United States412 Posts

February 05 2009 19:15 GMT

#250

lol rekrul. i have to repeat myself, i think he needs to understand that his methods are better put to use in a turn base strategy game. One of the things that makes starcraft a great RTS is that it allows people to show their amazing mechanics with a mouse and keyboard. If you don't liiek that, then just go play chess.

Zelc

129 Posts

February 05 2009 19:20 GMT

#251

I just wrote a long post on APM in the blog section here. The short version:

I think [Sirlin's] view misses some important points. First, it views APM more as an indicator of finger dexterity as opposed to recognition and fundamental understanding of game situations. Second, I think it's impossible to provide a cap on MUAPM without significantly changing the vision of Starcraft. Third, even "mindless" APM has a purpose: it adds a cost to micro and macro that creates a new resource and an interesting tradeoff. I'll touch on the Dune 2 argument here. Finally, I'll look at whether "mindless" APM adds to the fun of the game or not.

Slithe

United States985 Posts

February 05 2009 19:28 GMT

#252

It's a real-time strategy game for a reason. Time is meant to be an important aspect of Starcraft. If we didn't want APM and action management to be a critical factor, we would play turn-based strategy games.

maybenexttime

Poland5843 Posts

February 05 2009 19:49 GMT

#253

On February 05 2009 16:06 Rekrul wrote:
This Sirlin kid is a dumbfuck. Why are you guys even talking about the nonsense he spews?

Because a lot of people consider him an authority of some kind and take what he says for granted - same for that Dan the PC Gamer Guy.

We point out the flaws in his reasoning so that people actually stop spreading this nonesense.

Nimue

United States34 Posts

February 05 2009 20:12 GMT

#254

Woot! whole first lecture is up for download!

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