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fail
edit: wow i just made a really shitty post, ill edit this again and actually talk about the map when it comes up.
edit2: i really like the idea of using those huge ass crystals (can't remember the proper name for them... i think it starts with a k though) as terrain. besides that the terrain looks a little bland. and can you siege that expansion in the middle behind those crystals? also, i really like the whole "destroy the temple for 3rd gas" idea, but i feel it would maybe be a little better if it was stacked temples, or if the expansion was closer + easier to defend. by the time you're taking a 3rd (most of the time) you can probably just destroy that temple really quickly, so i don't think it would provide as good of aspect on the map as it could be, really good idea though.
download link plz!
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Bad for zerg, only 2 gas. in general, there's not many expos.
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On October 14 2008 09:40 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Bad for zerg, only 2 gas. in general, there's not many expos.
Theres 6 gas for each player. One is covered by the temple for each player at their 3rd.
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On the off-chance that anyone actually wants to PLAY your map before passing judgment on it, how about providing a download link?
Thanks.
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On October 14 2008 09:49 KonekoTyriin wrote:
On the off-chance that anyone actually wants to PLAY your map before passing judgment on it, how about providing a download link?
Thanks.
Melee
Obs vers coming soon
edit: obs vers in OP now
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Looks in favor of terran to me. Short narrow path to push with limited spots to flanks, easy access to third all terran favoring.
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10387 Posts
lol i thought those crystal neutral buildings were actually minerals for a second.
Ahhh crystalis... one of my favorite (imba) maps haha.
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On October 14 2008 09:58 randombum wrote:
Looks in favor of terran to me. Short narrow path to push with limited spots to flanks, easy access to third all terran favoring.
I made the easy accessable 3rd gas gas for the zerg to try to even it out that way so zerg can get an edge until they secure their 4th gas(because the 3rd only has 1000 resources in it).
I tried to add the 2 larger ramps in the middle for flanking terrans, is it not enough? Is there any way I could add/remove something the give toss an advantage too to even it out?
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On October 14 2008 09:34 Nitrogen23 wrote:
fail
edit: wow i just made a really shitty post, ill edit this again and actually talk about the map when it comes up.
edit2: i really like the idea of using those huge ass crystals (can't remember the proper name for them... i think it starts with a k though) as terrain. besides that the terrain looks a little bland. and can you siege that expansion in the middle behind those crystals? also, i really like the whole "destroy the temple for 3rd gas" idea, but i feel it would maybe be a little better if it was stacked temples, or if the expansion was closer + easier to defend. by the time you're taking a 3rd (most of the time) you can probably just destroy that temple really quickly, so i don't think it would provide as good of aspect on the map as it could be, really good idea though.
download link plz!
they are called khaydarin crystals, and the temple only has 1500 HP, so i guess stacking some more could delay that 3rd gas a bit because like you said by the time you are taking your 3rd you can usually easily destroy the 1 temple.
someone says 3rd is too accessible, and you say it should be closer + easier to defend! i can't make up my mind D=
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I would get sidtracted and shit
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I actually like it, kind of reminds me of blue storm (conceptually) but without the small 1-unit choke. I also like the temple idea, but I agree that it's too simple to get rid of by the time you take your third.
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On October 14 2008 10:18 DownMaxX wrote:
I actually like it, kind of reminds me of blue storm (conceptually) but without the small 1-unit choke. I also like the temple idea, but I agree that it's too simple to get rid of by the time you take your third.
yes i am replacing it with the x'el naga temple probably which i believe had 5000HP so it should take longer to kill, im not sure if i will stack a 2nd or 3rd one under it too
EDIT: i added some doodads in the middle by the crystals so you cannot completely siege the min only's, if you get close enough to their main you can siege a few mineral patches but if they are the close to your other bases it is much more of a bigger deal then losing a few probes. you cannot siege the nexus/cc/hatch at those bases at all though from the middle.
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hehe i too thought the big crystals were mineral patches at first :-D
And here I was dreaming of pumping obscene numbers of lings :-(
4 base should be ez for protoss in pvz on this map i think o.O
EDIT: Wait, I'm blind.
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On October 14 2008 10:11 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 09:34 Nitrogen23 wrote:
fail
edit: wow i just made a really shitty post, ill edit this again and actually talk about the map when it comes up.
edit2: i really like the idea of using those huge ass crystals (can't remember the proper name for them... i think it starts with a k though) as terrain. besides that the terrain looks a little bland. and can you siege that expansion in the middle behind those crystals? also, i really like the whole "destroy the temple for 3rd gas" idea, but i feel it would maybe be a little better if it was stacked temples, or if the expansion was closer + easier to defend. by the time you're taking a 3rd (most of the time) you can probably just destroy that temple really quickly, so i don't think it would provide as good of aspect on the map as it could be, really good idea though.
download link plz! they are called khaydarin crystals, and the temple only has 1500 HP, so i guess stacking some more could delay that 3rd gas a bit because like you said by the time you are taking your 3rd you can usually easily destroy the 1 temple. someone says 3rd is too accessible, and you say it should be closer + easier to defend! i can make up my mind D= edit: melee link has been posted and im working on the obs vers but i must have uninstalled my x-tra editor for making triggers, and every version im finding doesnt work or is written in a different language >_<
well, i think it should either be closer, with only 1 or few stacked temples, or farther away with a shitload of stacked temples. if it's closer and easier to defend, you can easily take it earlier in the game, when you have less units, so too many stacked temples would prevent getting that gas for a long time. imo it should stay where it is and have stacked temples.
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On October 14 2008 11:27 Nitrogen23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 10:11 Grobyc wrote:On October 14 2008 09:34 Nitrogen23 wrote:
fail
edit: wow i just made a really shitty post, ill edit this again and actually talk about the map when it comes up.
edit2: i really like the idea of using those huge ass crystals (can't remember the proper name for them... i think it starts with a k though) as terrain. besides that the terrain looks a little bland. and can you siege that expansion in the middle behind those crystals? also, i really like the whole "destroy the temple for 3rd gas" idea, but i feel it would maybe be a little better if it was stacked temples, or if the expansion was closer + easier to defend. by the time you're taking a 3rd (most of the time) you can probably just destroy that temple really quickly, so i don't think it would provide as good of aspect on the map as it could be, really good idea though.
download link plz! they are called khaydarin crystals, and the temple only has 1500 HP, so i guess stacking some more could delay that 3rd gas a bit because like you said by the time you are taking your 3rd you can usually easily destroy the 1 temple. someone says 3rd is too accessible, and you say it should be closer + easier to defend! i can make up my mind D= edit: melee link has been posted and im working on the obs vers but i must have uninstalled my x-tra editor for making triggers, and every version im finding doesnt work or is written in a different language >_< well, i think it should either be closer, with only 1 or few stacked temples, or farther away with a shitload of stacked temples. if it's closer and easier to defend, you can easily take it earlier in the game, when you have less units, so too many stacked temples would prevent getting that gas for a long time. imo it should stay where it is and have stacked temples.
I'm thinking I will probably put one or two of the x'el naga temples because they have 5000 life each and leave it in the same spot
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Those crystals had better have doodads under them or pathing will be terrible.
Pathing is incredibly linear.
I don't like the expo layout at all, potentially it could play ok though, but I doubt it.
edit: Post on broodwarmaps.net...
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On October 14 2008 09:42 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2008 09:40 il0seonpurpose wrote:
Bad for zerg, only 2 gas. in general, there's not many expos. Theres 5 gas for each player.. and a mineral only.
oh wow im blind
wait the third is a temple like thing
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bump
made some updates, made new DL links(for obs now too), and added PvZ and TvP wall-ins.
going to be used for TL Arena III
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
lol wow this is like hitchhiiker haha
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Looks like a fun map if it ever gets through the early game, though those two large inverted maps look a bit ugly, like some optical illusion
Nice idea with the gas being hidden under the temples.
There are a lot of suboptimal gas positions though. Also, the rush distance seems painfully short, doesnt it make the map Z imba? Maybe you could make some very low hp wall in the middle pathway?
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+ Show Spoiler +the orange recangles are spots with opening needs. I feel that in the case of any really strong contain in the middle of the map, depending on how narrow it is in gameplay, with this idea of opening those four spots the contains could have less chance of winning due to small center. The green lines are the line of travel that can be taken if these new spots are re-touched. The two recangles attached to the higher ground would have 2 new ramps added. and the Rectangle covering the Crystalists could be removed, or just add a small opening something like bluestorm, or the size of longinus. If not that then a normal opening about the size of the rectangle. YES, the opening on crystalist make it as big as the rectangle, if not then your taste is good, But! now we add mineral line to that as a wall! so that way late game it does become an opening, :D
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Looks pretty cool, but Terran can push across the map and setup a nat contain in the time it takes Protoss to blink...
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2009 23:48 wishbones wrote:the orange recangles are spots with opening needs. I feel that in the case of any really strong contain in the middle of the map, depending on how narrow it is in gameplay, with this idea of opening those four spots the contains could have less chance of winning due to small center. The green lines are the line of travel that can be taken if these new spots are re-touched. The two recangles attached to the higher ground would have 2 new ramps added. and the Rectangle covering the Crystalists could be removed, or just add a small opening something like bluestorm, or the size of longinus. If not that then a normal opening about the size of the rectangle. YES, the opening on crystalist make it as big as the rectangle, if not then your taste is good, But! now we add mineral line to that as a wall! so that way late game it does become an opening, :D
Ok so add two new wide ramps to the high ground, and remove those crystalist so it become's open'd up, But if you dont want to have it completely opened all game, then add a mineral line to where the crystals used to be, each mineral having about 32 minerals per Field. This way that location will become more useable later on for flanks in very sticky predicaments that look like its gg for you. You can secretly set up flanks and still come back with this new look. Maybe im wrong, but try it! i cant create it, it always tells me error. So if u could do that, ill dl and try it for sure.
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Thanks for the feedback wishbones. The main path in the middle is actually quite large ingame,but it still looks like Terran will have an easy time. I'll try making some more openings near the middle like you suggested. As for rush distance, yes it is pretty close, so I might try adding something to delay early units, especially since you need 2 depots and a tax to wall, which won't be complete in time for heavy zealot pressure. You can't modify the life of abuilding in a melée map, so I was thinking hallucinated Buildings, assuming they wouldn't disappear too quickly.
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United States12607 Posts
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Looks like an awesome macro map - once you have your third you basically can't be contained (look how long the pathing is), so if you have some way to defend the relatively narrow lanes (templar, reavers, siege tanks, mines, lurkers, huge hydra numbers), you can take half the map and seven bases (main, 4 gas expos, one half gas expo, one min only) relatively safely. The problem is that then the tight lanes start working against you, because your opponent's done the same thing and you end up with either a massive stalemate or a lot of cattlebruiser/carrier/guardian lategames. Another problem is that pushes are really hard to flank.
I think wishbones' suggestion is a good one - it'll make the game both more stable (pushes will actually be flankable in the midgame) and less prone to locking up (pushes will still be possible when both players have massive armies).
One thing I'm both excited about and slightly leery of is an extremely short rush distance, coupled with a relatively open natural. This will keep all games from being robotic 4 hatch before pool versus 12 nexus or whatever, but I think it might be dramatic enough to have a far higher proportion of cheese than you probably want. I'd consider slightly narrowing the natural (either with terrain or some sort of partial neutral-building/mineral wall) or just walling off the middle lane (I'd recommend something low hit points and unstacked to minimize stylistic impact). This wouldn't be particularly major, especially combined with wishbones' ramp suggestion, but it would add a crucial few seconds to the rush distance. Actually, I'd consider walling the two potential new ramps that're adjacent to the main lane as well.
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bump
New update
- Protoss temple changed to Xel naga temple, since the old temple only had 1500 life, which is pretty easy to kill by the time you would take your third gas anyway.
- Added new ramps to the high ground near the middle
- Removed a crystal wall near the middle
- fixed some misc things that differed between the symmetry of the map like path width etc.
- Added some more crystals on cliffs around the map for appearance.
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I couldn't figure out a way to extend the rush distance without putting 800hp generators in a line in the middle, which looks pretty ugly and then makes the rush distance from very short to very long
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looks like a cool map, how is the pathing? Is there terrain under those crystals?
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That would be pretty ugly, but we'll be seeing a LOT of rushes without it. Haven't been able to think of a decent fix that doesn't involve major conceptual changes, though.
EDIT BELOW
The best "fix" I can think of (to increase the rush distance) is to put a permanent crystal wall at both ends of the middle lane (where it splits to each base's natural and 3rd), with a gap closed by mineral patches or one to four generators. This has less impact than, say, remapping everything to have a slightly less direct center path, without making everything completely ugly.
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pathing is fine, there is terrain under the crystals. i've tested it as well.
tbh, it isn't exactly a horrible thing if the rush distance is close. its a 2 player map so you can scout cheese right away, and you can rush in any mu, so it's not imba for a certain race.
do you guys think it is pretty good TvP/PvT wise now? there's quite a bit of paths, and ingame they are relatively large as well. many different directions to expand as well.
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On December 04 2009 12:46 Grobyc wrote:
pathing is fine, there is terrain under the crystals. i've tested it as well.
tbh, it isn't exactly a horrible thing if the rush distance is close. its a 2 player map so you can scout cheese right away, and you can rush in any mu, so it's not imba for a certain race.
do you guys think it is pretty good TvP/PvT wise now? there's quite a bit of paths, and ingame they are relatively large as well. many different directions to expand as well.
The close rush distance is more a stylistic choice I guess, I was recommending that more as someone addicted to long macro games than as someone who thinks your map's imbalanced. 
Looks good PvT, though I'd have to disagree about the expansion directions - I think 95+% of games will see a left/right split, with the third being taken at the temple location and the fourth in the corner. Nothing wrong with that, though.
TvZ I don't see any problems either, though I don't play this matchup so it's harder to judge. Wide natural could potentially make sunken breaks pretty powerful?
ZvP the wall is just a touch awkward (two spots where lings can fit through is no good), but not gamebreakingly so. The main unique feature I see is that the third is so close to the nat, and the fourth to the third, that defending against pushes (with either race, but particularly as protoss because this is mostly a versus-five-hatch-hydra issue) is extremely easy. If he pushes up the middle, fall back to your third. If he attacks your nat anyway, he's not outmaneuvering you, he's just setting up to be flanked. If he follows you to your third, you get to fight with your static defense and your reinforcements flanking him. Similarly, you can reinforce your fourth from your third with no serious problems. Still, that'll lead to long, interesting games, not any imbalance for one race or another, so I'm happy.
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bump
I did a little more bit of modifying, mainly small things, but now you can create a perfect wall PvZ at your nat with your forge and gateway.
Also, you can wallin TvP at your nat as well now with 2 depots and a rax. all pictures are shown in OP. the final version download links are up as well.
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i really like this map.
Who is up for a game vs me on it?
will provide replays ;D
EDIT: OH BTW LOL, change the fucking 5 main ramp?
like srsly? how fucked up is that lolololol
i mean you used completely different tiles at the top...wtf
Change it and ill play it ;D
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What's so bad about that? He did it so the top of the ramp would be spaced properly for wallins.
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im talking about this:
Especially the top(not needed for wall-in).
The bottom is also possible to look better even with proper wall-in, i think :D
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Yeah, PH is right about that square at the top. Without that, it would be possible to wall-in with only a rax and a depot, unlike 11 main which needs 2 depots and a rax. Also, you don't see a lot of snow tileset maps with reverse ramps like this for a reason, I looked through the tileset index and that's definitely the best way to make it look half decent.
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Since this map is being used in the TL arena do you think we're going to be getting some really cool games on this?
+ Show Spoiler +also it's incredibly ironic that kona grinds out a map a week and nobody has really used his yet
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/crys13.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/PvZ5nat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/PvZ11nat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/TvP5main.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/TvP5nat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/TvP11main.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/TvP11nat.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.imageno.com/thumbs/20081014/37korune3oox.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/4619/crystalizedq.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i540.photobucket.com/albums/gg356/Grobyc_/crystal.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i45.tinypic.com/2ls7k8l.jpg)
