Hardest spell to master in BW?

On September 14 2008 17:09 IdrA wrote:
storm:click in the middle of a bunch of shit and it dies
swarm:click in the middle of your shit and it doesnt die
emp:guess which direction his arbiters gonna go and click the right amount in front of him or half his army ends up in your base

On September 14 2008 17:09 IdrA wrote:
storm:click in the middle of a bunch of shit and it dies
swarm:click in the middle of your shit and it doesnt die
emp:guess which direction his arbiters gonna go and click the right amount in front of him or half his army ends up in your base

On September 14 2008 16:15 dybydx wrote:
i'd say nukes and blind. i only recall boxer using both at the SAME TIME. (he nuked first, scanned, blinded the obs that was comming in, THEN bring in the sci vessel to emp the nexus.)

or when he blinded 5-6 obs in 1 second, and then brought in the wraiths. that dropped jaws.

On September 14 2008 21:15 29 fps wrote:
i would have to say dark swarm, only because consuming and casting takes up a lot of time. the spell itself isnt too difficult; it's the defiler management that is difficult.

On September 14 2008 18:51 MYM.Testie wrote:
The defiler is the hardest spellcaster to use obviously, because almost no foreign zerg, in all these years has used them properly. They almost always leave a glaring hole in their game that is just waiting to be exploited when using them. Simply getting defilers means you have to commit a lot of time to them, unlike other casters where you can leave them sitting around and their job is already fulfilled, as they are just waiting to point and click, when going defilers your game often revolves around them performing admirably. Defilers need constant care and babying and if you are not fast enough, or practiced enough with using them, you will look like a clumsy oaf as the terran starves you to death and irradiates your face off.

On September 14 2008 18:51 MYM.Testie wrote:
i.e. if someone is having trouble with templars getting sniped by vultures, you can put the ones with the most mana in a shuttle. If you are having difficulties with defilers getting irradiated, or picked off by tanks / a stimmed group of rines you will need scourge and constant awareness to protect them. And unlike in the protoss scenario you will not likely have dropship ability due to the extreme pressure in ZvT. You could just boil it down to the amount of actions something takes, and it's a lot more actions and clicks to keep them safe.

On September 14 2008 22:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:

I'm curious why Zergs don't use overlords (which are usually with their armies no?) in the same way that Protosses would use shuttles to hide their spellcasters.

On September 14 2008 22:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:

I'm curious why Zergs don't use overlords (which are usually with their armies no?) in the same way that Protosses would use shuttles to hide their spellcasters.

On September 14 2008 18:51 MYM.Testie wrote:
I would disagree strongly on Kennigits EMP use of being hard to use. Any terran can shift click EMP and emp an entire protoss army and run away. That is how ensnare/emp/irradiate etc are used. Scan ahead, shift click, and run away. It would be difficult if you accidently left them in the open, they had to dmatrix eachother, emp the army and then run away, god willing they each had 200 energy. Science vessel + Templar abilities should be among the easiest to use, dark archon abilities as well despite their oft infrequent use. When they are used feedback is just devastating and maelstorm is the bane of zerg air.

Blind is not so difficult to use either, as in the rare instances you go blind it is not a spell you really need that much awareness for. See an observer/shuttle/overlord, sure, blind it. A couple lurkers on a cliff, sure blind them too after scanning. It's not like you are in the heat of battle and you need to cast blind, as it has no effect.

I would also question why storm could be considered difficult to use. It is either point and click at target, point and click ahead of target, or lead target to designated area for destruction. It is one of the most used spells thus one of the most practiced, and if practicing truly yields results, it should hardly be listed. i.e. if someone is having trouble with templars getting sniped by vultures, you can put the ones with the most mana in a shuttle. If you are having difficulties with defilers getting irradiated, or picked off by tanks / a stimmed group of rines you will need scourge and constant awareness to protect them. And unlike in the protoss scenario you will not likely have dropship ability due to the extreme pressure in ZvT. You could just boil it down to the amount of actions something takes, and it's a lot more actions and clicks to keep them safe.

The defiler is the hardest spellcaster to use obviously, because almost no foreign zerg, in all these years has used them properly. They almost always leave a glaring hole in their game that is just waiting to be exploited when using them. Simply getting defilers means you have to commit a lot of time to them, unlike other casters where you can leave them sitting around and their job is already fulfilled, as they are just waiting to point and click, when going defilers your game often revolves around them performing admirably. Defilers need constant care and babying and if you are not fast enough, or practiced enough with using them, you will look like a clumsy oaf as the terran starves you to death and irradiates your face off.

Very few people use defilers properly after 10 years. That is all that needs to be said. I have met very few zergs who know when to get them. And even the best zergs who use them will often play them brilliantly one game, and then get them at a wrong time on the wrong map in another game.

So long story short:
Terran always has science vessels in TvZ = always used = always practiced = don't leave them in the open stupid, irradiate / dmatrix = easy to use.
Protoss templars+darkarchons = point and click = easy to use.
Zerg defilers = cumbersome units that need constant attention to be used to their full potential. While essentially they are just point and click as well, their spells take far more effort to pull off effectively.

On September 14 2008 18:52 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ya dmatrix is hard.
i dont think dweb is tho

On September 15 2008 00:00 t_co wrote:


Wow... nice answer Testie! I am wondering--precisely what is it abou the defiler's set of spells that makes them so hard to "master", even for top foreigners? Is it APM-intensity? I mean, I've seen reps where top foreigners have around 200 EAPM so I doubt it... or is it much more built around making sure the rest of your army complements the opportunities created by the defiler? Please let me know if that line of reasoning is correct... thanks!

Defensive defilers however are much easier to use than offensive though which is why its such a pain to kill expansions nowadays =[

On September 15 2008 01:23 -orb- wrote:
Dark Swarm is the easiest spell in the entire game, the only one easier than storm.

I can't imagine how some of you are saying either swarm or storm are the hardest....

On September 14 2008 18:35 Artosis wrote:
emp isnt that hard.
dmatrix is.
ever have 12 angry 5 armor ultras attacking ur shit and dmatrix one instead of a marine? yeah screw that. id rather guess where an arb is going any day.

On September 14 2008 17:52 PH wrote:
Storms and swarms. I don't consider the difficulty to find a use for a spell a factor in deciding its difficulty for use in general.


Do you remember what game that was (where he blinded the observers)? I've only seen highlight clips of it...Hopefully TL has a VOD of it.

On September 14 2008 16:13 H_ wrote:
Lockdown. Putting it to any sort of practical use is nigh-impossible.

On September 15 2008 05:55 Caller wrote:
infestation is a great way to finish off a burning cc

i used it to great effect when he lifted and was trying to fix it
so i build 10 scourge and a queen and bam dead cc

then he forgot about it and an infested killed 30 scvs yay

very situational though lol

On September 15 2008 00:02 Piy wrote:


How isn't D web hard to use. Your having to place 4-6 d webs around your reavers, being careful about where you place them, all within the space of a few seconds if you see Hydras unexpectedly.

I've only ever see Nal_ra and Bisu pull it off in a pro game.

Much harder than D matrix, and debatably harder than swarm, its just no-one would notice if it was or not because you can opt not to use web if you can't do it, whereas swarm is a necessity.

On September 15 2008 05:44 V6 wrote:
bah, you are all wrong. Havnt playd BW for a while so i cant remember the spell name haha.. anyways, its the one from the queen when you use the spell that makes enemy units to 2 little buggs. Try shift deselct 12 of them on diffrent targets.

Darn hard ^^

On September 15 2008 05:52 kpcrew wrote:


unless you are boxer

On September 15 2008 05:44 V6 wrote:
bah, you are all wrong. Havnt playd BW for a while so i cant remember the spell name haha.. anyways, its the one from the queen when you use the spell that makes enemy units to 2 little buggs. Try shift deselct 12 of them on diffrent targets.

Darn hard ^^

On September 15 2008 08:14 Divinek wrote:


Yes, because you'll quite often have 12 queens with 150 energy just sitting around.

On September 14 2008 22:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:

I'm curious why Zergs don't use overlords (which are usually with their armies no?) in the same way that Protosses would use shuttles to hide their spellcasters.

On September 14 2008 16:15 dybydx wrote:
i'd say nukes and blind. i only recall boxer using both at the SAME TIME. (he nuked first, scanned, blinded the obs that was comming in, THEN bring in the sci vessel to emp the nexus.)

or when he blinded 5-6 obs in 1 second, and then brought in the wraiths. that dropped jaws.

On September 15 2008 18:43 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


because zealots and dragoons do just fine on attack move, and zerg units generally don't. at least not in any situation hairy enough that you'd want to hide your defilers in an overlord

On September 14 2008 16:56 G5 wrote:
to actually master, I would say D-Matrix on Marines in TvZ. It must be the right Marine in the right position and quick as hell on the small marine before it dies.

Storm especially in PvT is hard as well since you have to baby sit the HT's in big battles while trying to position your main units correctly. That along with good T's always vulture raiding your army to pick off HT's and tanks target firing them before they are in range of the T (or at least in range of any part of the Terran push worth storming).

D-Web is hard too since it had to completely be in a correct place depending on your units positioning / your opponents units positioning because if you miss-place it, it becomes worthless as fuck as your opponent just runs by it.

Consuming with Defilers causes probs also simply because lings are so small and fast and they run away from the Defilers a lot and it takes some time to actually do it since shifting doesn't work with consume. You have to click each consume one after another and with Z, it takes a lot of time away from managing everything else.

Those are all hard but I would say the Double D's would be the hardest to master. D-Web and D-Matrix.