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Ok, this isn't an actual event (yet), I'm just trying to get feedback here and throwing out ideas, to see how you guys respond etc.
If you check out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72894, you'll see that there are a fair amount of people who support or are pushing having atleast one foreign (non pro korean) map in TSL2. The biggest concern here of course is just that the map is interesting enough and balanced enough. From the sounds of it, TSL is open to the idea, should a map of high enough caliber appear (I'm exrapolating here, no official statement has been made, and many people still say outright no for various reasons).
My question to you guys is though, how many people would be interested in small (16 man probably) tournaments, with foreign maps in them? This would 1. Get testing on and replays on the maps 2. Show the community some maps 3. See if any maps are interesting enough to pursue further testing and editing to attempt to make a map good enough for TSL (doesn't mean it would get in though).
In a 16man bo3 tournament (bo5 finals), we could do a few things. The mappool could be made entirely of foreign maps. We could have new foreign maps, old foreign maps, etc. Or, we could force the first game of each round to be on a different foreign map, but allow loser picks from a pool of more known maps, maybe including older foreign maps. I personally favour this method, gg.net's Avaton style. The mappool I think would best have a selection of maps, some familiar foreign maps, and some new proleague maps (Othello, Wuthering Heights, Tiamat, etc), without the "overplayed" tau cross, python, longinus, etc, just to spice up the tournament.
What are your thoughts on the tournaments? We could hold them fairly regularly, as 16 man tournaments aren't terribly taxing to run. I think if we did it the way I'm thinking about, I'd post a thread on tl about it, listing the maps and mappool, give a time and place, about a week in advanced, then run the tournament maybe once a day for that week, then make a new thread (or update the first one, but that could get messy) about the time and place and maps for the following week's tournament(s).
What do you think about the mappool format? Overplayed maps in or out? One foreign map per round loser picks? Or all foreign maps? New pro maps or no? (I refuse to let Andromeda in though).
Also, what time and server do you think it's best on? ICCup maybe? Then we can have anti-hack + lan latency, and be away from the noise of bnet. Most people on bnet probably wouldn't want to play foreign maps anyway. If we do it on bnet, I can have Moto make anti-hack versions of all the maps involved if you guys want, and then chaos launcher could be used for any games where both players have it.
For time, I'm not working now, but am hoping to get a job soon and I don't know what my hours would be, so we might have to work around that unless I can get someone to fill in for me to run it =/
As a prize for the winner, I can't offer money or a physical prize, but I can give you an interview and some immortality  The interview would be about, who you are, what you think about sc2, what you thought about the foreign maps, if you liked the tourney, what you think about the proleagues (who're you rooting for), etc. And your name would go into a growing list of tourney winners for everyone to see, forever (immortality). And the interview would be posted in the next tourney's thread or post. I guess I can just make one big growing thread and use lots of spoilers for old stuff
For foreign maps, I'd most likely be picking more standard-esque maps than experimental type ones, but it's likely I might pick a relatively standard map which does have an experimental feature as well.
It's possible that we could make these bigger than 16man if there's a lot of popular response, but that's highly dependent on feedback, who shows up for the first one, etc.
Please, post any kind of feedback here. Anything relating to the concept of foreign maps in TSL2 should be in that thread, in the TSL forum. This is just about the tournaments, which would help the mappers regardless of what goes on in TSL.
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Good idea, but lots of tourneys on TL.net are fairly disorganized and take months and months to complete, and generally lots of them fall apart before the first round. You're going to need strict deadlines or a single day of the tournament and keep it organized and disciplined, otherwise people won't show up and the games will never get played.
I would definitely be interested in joining a tournament like this, though!
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Well for example I'd say:
Congratulations to the winners of last week's tournaments: N/A for Monday, N/A, for tuesday, etc.
View their interviews here + Show Spoiler +
Download the week's replay pack here N/A
All tournament replay packs here + Show Spoiler +
List of all tournament winners and their interviews here + Show Spoiler +
Ok for the week starting on Monday the 23rd in iccup in channel "AT Preparation" at 3 pm EST, (22:00 CET) there'll be a 16 man tournament, all are invited, players will be added on a first-come first-serve basis, with anyone not present at the start of the tournament (whenever 16 people said they'd play) to be replaced five minutes after the start by someone who's in the channel still. The bracket will be on battlereports.com. All matches are bo3 except for the final round which is bo5. The starting map for the first round is (2)Sound Barrier, the starting map for the second round is (4)Voices, the starting map for the third round is (2)Spinel Valley, the starting map for the final round is (2)Radiance and the second map for the final round is (4)Korhal Pride, for all other games the map is chosen by the loser (the loser of the second game for the final round), from the mappool. The mappool is: (2)Geisterfahrer, (2)Nightlight, (2)Roads to Antiga Prime, (2)Signal, (4)Crusader, (4)Memory Cell, (4)Nazca, Sattarchasm, (2)Bluestorm 1.2, (2)Hwarangdo, (2)Tiamat, (3)Athena, (4)Colosseum, (4)Katrina SE, (4)Othello, (4)Wuthering Heights, (4)Zodiac, including the featured maps: (2)Radiance, (2)Sound Barrier, (2)Spinel Valley, (4)Korhal Pride, and (4)Voices.
Featured map pictures are here + Show Spoiler + (4)Voices by Crackling (2)Spinel Valley by NastyMarine (4)Korhal Pride by NastyMarine (2)Radiance by Nightmarjoo (2)Sound Barrier by Flothefreak, concept by Radix
Download the mappack here N/A
Please look over and discuss this week's featured maps, as well as give any feedback over last week's tournaments, any complaints or things you really liked, what you thought about the featured maps, etc, and what you feel about the entire mappool. Good luck to next week's players, hope to see you there!
/end example. That's basically what I'd do if I was making the tournament right now, but everything there is subject to change based on feedback in the thread.
Idealy the tournament would take at most, three hours. The rounds would start as soon as possible, with a 5 minute waiting period before the start of the first round for each player, and after 5 minutes if a player isn't here we'd replace him with someone who's not afk. Then there'd be a 5 minute allowed break for players between matches. Players would be expected to have downloaded and known the maps ahead of time. The brackets would be made on a first-come first-serve basis in starcraft, no pre-registering. If any player is afk, his opponent will be given a walkout after a wait of 10 minutes after both players were done with their previous game. Each round will be started as soon as possible, so if there's a game in the first round still happening but 2 players who would face eachother in the 2nd round are both done, they would be allowed to start their game.
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wow the first one looks awesome
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I think this would be a great idea, a really big thing for the foreign map community. I'm not that good but i'd definatly be down for this.
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id be interested in it. It sounds fun playing on some different maps for a change
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I'd love to play on some of those maps. First round starting on Sound Barrier? Awesome, I wanted to play that map as I saw it, but nobody I usualy play with wants to play on non pro maps.
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I've seen all the others except for Voices, and I must say Voices looks impressive! I will try to attend on Monday
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What are you intending participant skill to be?
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Have to be atleast good enough to leave a game
On June 17 2008 06:55 h3r1n6 wrote:
I'd love to play on some of those maps. First round starting on Sound Barrier? Awesome, I wanted to play that map as I saw it, but nobody I usualy play with wants to play on non pro maps.
Yeah, Sound Barrier is one of my favourite bwm maps, I've played it a couple times and never disliked any aspect of it. I really like it
That example wasn't real guys, but if there are no complaints about it I can make it real. Everything, including the mappool, time, location are all subject to change based on thread feedback.
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It looks good to go and looks fine too. Go for it!
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lol well I don't know if the rest of TL is as enthusiastic as yourself Superiorwolf
I'll post a thread in tourneys section for this if there's more positive feedback. I'd like more feedback especially on the time and the mappool, specifically the non "featured" maps. I just picked the newest pro maps (without Andromeda though because it's one of the worst maps I've ever seen; and I added Zodiac because it wasn't played enough imo, and people are familiar with it), and the foreign maps which were in pgt, wgt, and blizzcon (minus king of the abyss). I could also add iccup foreign maps to the pool (just Shine and Faoi, Calypso was bad, and Survivor is basically just a rush map).
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Calgary25990 Posts
On June 17 2008 07:57 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I could also add iccup foreign maps to the pool (just Shine and Faoi, Calypso was bad, and Survivor is basically just a rush map).
lol
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I wonder what would happen if you suddenly switched one of the current macro maps with the old school maps and see how the nowadays macro players would fare on a micro oriented map. Stuff like nightlight, I guess?
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Sorry Chill, you know I can't help but mention it, I've gone like a day or two without mentioning it so aren't I allowed? Though I don't feel I'm unjustly mentioning it, those three maps were only in iccup for one season before being removed, Faoi's been in two. I personally like Shine, but iccup had issues with distances on it though. Even if it's my map and I'm an asshole for mentioning it, it still IS a foreign map in a league, so it's relevant to the thread and the tournament. And if someone wanted to pick it to play on it because they're familiar with, the fact that my name is on it shouldn't discourage them, and it'd be only in the pool, no one would be required to play on it. I'm just throwing out ideas for the maps also, if anyone feels ANY map here shouldn't be in the pool, please make a point about it. I don't know how well balanced many of those old maps are, especially for the macro based play as Superiorwolf said.
I did just list foreign maps there which players should know. I don't know if they're appropriate choices or not really, I need feedback please. Hopefully I'm allowed to decide here which maps are in and which aren't since I'm running it. If anyone wants Calypso or Survivor in I wouldn't have a problem with it since I am trying to structure this for the players, but to help the mappers at the same time. Same goes for if people wanted any map in that pool out, including Faoi.
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if you're low on players I'll play, but I'm a D- pretty much
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I'm down... so Monday 23rd be where? o_O ?
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Yes I'd play ever every single one. ( I think for zerg to spend 10-15 minutes thinking about a map and then playing it is the best possible training for race fluidity(sp?))
Also is anybody interested in having WCG mini-tournaments, I or someone else could host them , using wcg maps exclusively...?
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I didn't add the featured maps to that list. The liklihood of me changing the featured maps for this week atleast is not high, I like those maps a lot and they look fairly solid already. And, we need them all tested.
Any particular reasons why you don't like those four maps?
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On June 17 2008 20:08 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Any particular reasons why you don't like those four maps?
I don't really like to play on Blue Storm, and TvP is the reason for not wanting Katrina :D.
For Memory Cell, it seems to have a bit of positional imbalances, with the positioning of the ramps, and on Nightlight I don't like the second path into the natural.
Seeing those maps I just don't get the, oh I would like to do this or that, man I want to play that map feel.
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No to these maps:
(4)Katrina SE P>>>>T, we don't have Flash
(2)Bluestorm 1.2 been played to death, and people complain about balance a lot one way or another.
(2)Hwarangdo T>Z, P>T
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This sounds very good, I would participate- but im a bad player. Hopefully this gathers a decent level of support and the testing goes well.
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Memory Cell does have a little bit of positional imbalance, but imo it doesn't prevent the map from giving good games. It was fine as mots in pgt lol.
I agree bluestorm has been played to death and is boring to play and watch, but atleast people know it well, otherwise I feel people might be overwhelmed by unfamiliar maps.
Hwarangdo probably is imbalanced, but atleast it's something different?
Even if Katrina is badly imbalanced, atleast everyone knows it.
The second path into Nightlight's nat is part of what makes it special and different 
More feedback for removing those maps will ensure their removal, I'm not against removing them. Just throwing out why I think they could help the tourney maybe. Comes down to balance vs familiarity =/
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On June 17 2008 15:06 AttackZerg wrote:
Yes I'd play ever every single one. ( I think for zerg to spend 10-15 minutes thinking about a map and then playing it is the best possible training for race fluidity(sp?))
Also is anybody interested in having WCG mini-tournaments, I or someone else could host them , using wcg maps exclusively...?
I am down >.<
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On June 17 2008 04:54 Nightmarjoo wrote:
What do you think about the mappool format? Overplayed maps in or out? One foreign map per round loser picks? Or all foreign maps? New pro maps or no? I think that if you want the tourney to test foreign maps then it should have foreign maps only.
For foreign maps, I'd most likely be picking more standard-esque maps than experimental type ones, but it's likely I might pick a relatively standard map which does have an experimental feature as well. I agree with this, but I think it should be very explicit of how standard we're shooting for. You should set up some standardization rules that maps should follow. Such as "main should have 8 to 10 minerals, no more or less" or "main-nat choke should be between 4 or 8 units, no more no less" etc for example. Things like that.
I could contribute with making maps. But I won't play because I'm bad and I think it's important that you have good players to test how the maps plays at high levels. I believe we have enough C+ or better players on TL to gather 16 people for a short 3 hour tourney. We should ask those guys for help.
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On June 18 2008 03:59 anotak wrote:
No to these maps:
(4)Katrina SE P>>>>T, we don't have Flash
(2)Bluestorm 1.2 been played to death, and people complain about balance a lot one way or another.
(2)Hwarangdo T>Z, P>T
i like maps that are imbalanced. i think its entertaining to watch how a player compensates for it. and with imba maps we get new strats and builds from players which we don't see otherwise to try and make up for the fact that they would get raped if they played the same normal / boring style almost everyone plays.
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lol "relatively standard" I think negates any need for explicit specifications. Under "relatively standard" I include every map so far listed in the mappool.
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those maps look awesome and i think this is a good idea, its nice to get some freshness in maps.
i must admit when i saw Nightmarjoo was the OP the first thing i did was Ctrl+F Faoi 
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I almost managed to not mention it, but I couldn't help myself T_T
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On June 18 2008 05:19 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Even if Katrina is badly imbalanced, atleast everyone knows it.
It's also a terrible map, it's boring, and hyperturtly.
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Ok, I think we're going to have to wait until the following monday (the 30th?) to start to give the mappers a little more time to prepare these maps.
That should work out well though, it'll give us a full week to review the maps, and more time for feedback from tl on the mappool itself.
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I think it would be a fantastic prize for a tournament to be seeded a game in the next TL Attack. I'm sure you'd get a lot of people playing if that was the case. However, it might not fancy Chill/TL Attack Crew so it's only an idea.
A foreign-map tourny would get me more practice. I'm always trying to improve at SC (who isn't?) and I get bored playing the same maps. It's not that I couldn't just download some random maps and play against my friends, which we do sometimes, but with a tournament I'd look over the map and really think about it. I couldn't cheat and read someone elses analysis. By doing this yourself you can get better intellectually rather than getting better by memorization. I'm not saying the FE Seismic maps was bad, it can help you get better at analyzing maps and is a great read, but you don't get this out of it. I'm sure most people just read it to find out what strategies they can abuse other people on iccup with. This doesn't teach you how to formulate a strategy of your own, you're just carrying out someone elses plan and pretending you're elite.
In my opinion, that's what SC is these days. You copy an exact BO and plan for the few maps that are played. You then mass game to improve your mechanics and to do the BO "perfectly". You win some games on ICCUP and you think you're amazing.
I'm in for the tournament. It would be nice to have some games that reward people for having good mechanics AND intelligence.
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I'd enter the tourney if it's organized enough. I wouldn't mind playing on some cool foreign maps, to help see if there's one we can get for the next TSL. Even though I think it's risky adding a map there, I would like to help see it happen someday.
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That'd be a neat prize for sure, I'll have to look into that to see if TL can offer it
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Make savior play on a foreigner map! (provide him with the file before hand!)
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i'll play even though i suck
we should definitely narrow down the choices first to like 4-5 though, otherwise we won't get enough games to balance any of them
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i say narrow it down to 3 maps, with 2 maps repeated
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Any news on this?
I'd be up for a one day tourny where we can pick up the maps a couple weeks ahead of time. That'd be fun.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)vo1ices(n).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)spinel%20valley1.2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)korhal%20pride(n).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Radiance(n).jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/SoundBarrier1.2.jpg)
