I have been making these for the past few seasons and they usually spark some fun discussion in the comments. Making this from my phone this time so sadly no actual tierlist dot com list. I might make one later.
Participants: Mini Scan Shuttle Calm Rush Royal Speed Hyun Best BTS Mind Barracks Light Tyson Bisu Killer Queen Skey Jaedong Stork HerO Tulbo Action Ssak Rain Sharp Soulkey SnOw
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
hopefully he will do well (ro8 at least) in this upcoming ASL
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
Without regular proleague, and barely any of the Chinese sponsored Bo7/9 results registered on eloboard, I have no clue who is on top of the game right now. Checking eloboard is almost useless these days. What did Best do?
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
hopefully he will do well (ro8 at least) in this upcoming ASL
FIGHTING!
I think the chinese sponsored series that have been going for the past year have had a positive effect on the form for a bunch of players. The volume of games they play is on average higher than during the era they focused on just being in the proleague every day, which would often result in them playing 1-5 games at most during a proleague, and maybe zero to two sponsor sets before proleague. Most of the Chinese sponsored series go from bo5 to bo9, and they organize multiple of them every day. These spons are almost always with top 14 players. I think this has lead to a pretty good increase in average performance across the board. But sadly we do get fewer proleagues.
Best has been playing in alot of these.
Then there are also the Larva sponsored best of 11-21 series he has been doing vs Terrans. He hasnt done them in the past month, but in January and early february he did these quite frequently. I think he did over 80-100 natches. That alone is also a great contributor to TvZ form amongst the pros.
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Good one , Nirli !!
Well , he did ! in fact , vs sSak in that game i've posted in the Casual thread!
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Good one , Nirli !!
Well , he did ! in fact , vs sSak in that game i've posted in the Casual thread!
Ssak plays maybe the most BW right now beside maybe BTS. Ssak is in really good form in online play. But I dont know if he can translate that to Offline. I got high hopes for him though. He looks much more well rounded and focused than ever.
I don't know about all of his mu but I find Mini to have a better zvp than snOw. Also Jaedong rank is just about right, he is in a much better shape than the last time I watched him in 2021, I hope he continues to grind games everyday as he does at the moment, he might overtake Soulkey in the future who knows.
On March 13 2025 03:12 iFU.pauline wrote: I don't know about all of his mu but I find Mini to have a better zvp than snOw. Also Jaedong rank is just about right, he is in a much better shape than the last time I watched him in 2021, I hope he continues to grind games everyday as he does at the moment, he might overtake Soulkey in the future who knows.
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
Now give it to me straight - since the first post you've changed the list at least 3 times man :D
On March 13 2025 00:55 Nirli wrote: Haven't watched BW since Flash first came back, but Best S tier? He makes units that aren't warped from the Gateway yet?
Yeah. He has been on fire for a few months now, putting out maybe the best overall performances (online) beside Soulkey. But still not sure about putting him over SnOw.
Now give it to me straight - since the first post you've changed the list at least 3 times man :D
I had to change a symbol in the list haha. Best is on fire. I will create a supported by recent series argument when i get back home.
S tier: Soulkey > SnOw > Light A tier: Mini = Rush = Queen > Best = Speed B tier: Bisu = Sharp = Mind = Rain = Royal C tier: HerO = Barracks = Action > Ssak D tier: Stork > Jaedong > Hyun = Shuttle = Calm E tier: Killer = Scan > Tyson F tier: Tulbo ~ BTS ~ Skey
This is just based on recent results. I love Jaedong as much as the next guy - a match between him and Bisu is what originally got me into watching pro broodwar - but I have to be realistic here.
On March 13 2025 06:27 ThunderJunk wrote: S tier: Soulkey > SnOw > Light A tier: Mini = Rush = Queen > Best = Speed B tier: Bisu = Sharp = Mind = Rain = Royal C tier: HerO = Barracks = Action > Ssak D tier: Stork > Jaedong > Hyun = Shuttle = Calm E tier: Killer = Scan > Tyson F tier: Tulbo ~ BTS ~ Skey
This is just based on recent results. I love Jaedong as much as the next guy - a match between him and Bisu is what originally got me into watching pro broodwar - but I have to be realistic here.
Damn, That is a very low placing for Jaedong though :O. He's been doing really good online so I got high hopes for him. If he can lock back into the correct mindset offline and bring those online performances to the offline stage he should be a top contender.
On March 13 2025 06:27 ThunderJunk wrote: S tier: Soulkey > SnOw > Light A tier: Mini = Rush = Queen > Best = Speed B tier: Bisu = Sharp = Mind = Rain = Royal C tier: HerO = Barracks = Action > Ssak D tier: Stork > Jaedong > Hyun = Shuttle = Calm E tier: Killer = Scan > Tyson F tier: Tulbo ~ BTS ~ Skey
This is just based on recent results. I love Jaedong as much as the next guy - a match between him and Bisu is what originally got me into watching pro broodwar - but I have to be realistic here.
Damn, That is a very low placing for Jaedong though :O. He's been doing really good online so I got high hopes for him. If he can lock back into the correct mindset offline and bring those online performances to the offline stage he should be a top contender.
I wouldn't put JD anywhere near A tier atm. but putting him behind Stork seems kinda wild. I would probably resort D tier to JD>Shuttle>Calm>Stork>Hyun and could argue for Hyun to drop to D tier but the rest of ThunderJunks list I pretty much agree with. Maybe Light down to A tier atm.
Soulkey SnOw hero Rush Light sOrry ZerO Speed Bisu Mini Sharp True Action Best Jaedong Stork sSak Shuttle Killer Tyson YSC Mind Rain Barracks Skey Scan Hyun Calm
edit: not too familiar with Skey, i dont know how good is Mind at the moment either. Killer is so under-rated and barely play, but when he does, he is a problem for anyone. I feel like Action should be lower, but hes got an edge on anyone below in the rankings so i dont know.
Also, im not too sure if hero and Light deserve to be that high on everybody's list, mine included. If that list is for right now, and i believe it is; then sOrry, Zero and Speed are clearly right below Soulkey and Snow. Best is also playing very well, but i can't. I just can't. Sorry Best.
On March 13 2025 09:44 CHEONSOYUN wrote: respect sharp.
ssak > barracks = ??
Ssak's been playing better the past few months. Barracks is taking more losses vs players in his skill range than Ssak, implying Barracks is going through a minor slump, whereas Ssak with more wins vs strong opponents seems to be going through a peak. This is purely ranked based on how they're doing right now(past 2 months). It could very well happen that Barracks locks in and gets out of his slump and Ssak loses his peak form. Ssak and Barracks though are so close in skill that they can easily switch rank based on how their week is going. Ssak could very well already be on a slight downwards trend and Barracks on an upwards trend. Ssak's actually done pretty poorly the last week, compared to Barracks doing well the past week, even though Barracks did get absolutely destroyed by Jaedong 2-7 and 2-5 the past few days. But I attribute that more to Jaedong being in really good form currently.
You could definitely make a fair argument against my placing of Ssak.
I say this with Soulkey being my favorite player in mind: as far as his online performances go in the last couple weeks/months, he hasn't been on par with what he's capable of. He got destroyed by Snow in a bo7 yesterday or the day before, the score being like 4:1 I believe, and his proleague performances haven't been spectacular either. But given that he's won 3 ASLs in a row, hoping all these recent matches are just him messing around and not showing his actual form until offline starts.
On March 13 2025 15:33 bw2ku wrote: I say this with Soulkey being my favorite player in mind: as far as his online performances go in the last couple weeks/months, he hasn't been on par with what he's capable of. He got destroyed by Snow in a bo7 yesterday or the day before, the score being like 4:1 I believe, and his proleague performances haven't been spectacular either. But given that he's won 3 ASLs in a row, hoping all these recent matches are just him messing around and not showing his actual form until offline starts.
This has been my observation as well. Dude is not doing justice to his talent, taking sick days off almost every other day, and when he does go on stream, 80% of the time he's watching university leagues, playing League of Legends or Tekken or a Monopoly-looking board game or some other games, or fighting spirit macro map games with Calm, etc.
Also, this must be the closest real Tier of all the ASLs. Even if they calculate points, those Tiers are kinda accurate. Would swap Calm and True, Speed and Shuttle, And may be a few more, but it looks good
On March 13 2025 23:38 XenOsky wrote: BeSt ... S rank
Rain and Bisu... C rank
the world has become a weird ass place
Bisu has only played bits of ladder for the past 3 months and I think his shape is worse than ever as a result. he has played zero actual pro vs pro matches and has streamed for a total of zero minutes since mid december. Hence why I put him much lower. Best has been doing great in best of sets and I think he is currently in his best form since 2021 when he initiated the shuttle templar meta shift. Rain played a big set vs ssak recently and went like 3-8 vs Ssak. I had to shift him down a fair bit.
On March 13 2025 23:38 XenOsky wrote: BeSt ... S rank
Rain and Bisu... C rank
the world has become a weird ass place
Bisu has only played bits of ladder for the past 3 months and I think his shape is worse than ever as a result. he has played zero actual pro vs pro matches and has streamed for a total of zero minutes since mid december. Hence why I put him much lower. Best has been doing great in best of sets and I think he is currently in his best form since 2021 when he initiated the shuttle templar meta shift. Rain played a big set vs ssak recently and went like 3-8 vs Ssak. I had to shift him down a fair bit.
Bisu last stream:
He was obviously secretly practicing off-stream to destroy everyone in 2025.
On March 13 2025 23:38 XenOsky wrote: BeSt ... S rank
Rain and Bisu... C rank
the world has become a weird ass place
Bisu has only played bits of ladder for the past 3 months and I think his shape is worse than ever as a result. he has played zero actual pro vs pro matches and has streamed for a total of zero minutes since mid december. Hence why I put him much lower. Best has been doing great in best of sets and I think he is currently in his best form since 2021 when he initiated the shuttle templar meta shift. Rain played a big set vs ssak recently and went like 3-8 vs Ssak. I had to shift him down a fair bit.
Bisu last stream:
He was obviously secretly practicing off-stream to destroy everyone in 2025.
While everyone else was partying in proleague, Bisu studied the blade.
I laughed a bit at this list. Best is the same as always, choker in big games, good to great otherwise.
From what I've noticed the biggest change before this ASL is that Queen is looking better this time around. Mini looks bored and unmotivated as fuck, he's still dangerous though.
On March 15 2025 12:31 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Snow is killing everybody at the moment, last 30 games only lost 4, not even flash was that dominant imo.
Let's see how he does offline though.
Snow was more dominant than even this last year in january. He had like a 90% winrate over 60 games.
edit: i went back to check. He went 63-8 over 2 weeks. two of those losses came at the end of that period. If we remove those two we get a 90% winrate. He reached the all time highest peak elo at that time.
On March 15 2025 12:31 Soft_General_5023 wrote: Snow is killing everybody at the moment, last 30 games only lost 4, not even flash was that dominant imo.
Let's see how he does offline though.
Snow was more dominant than even this last year in january. He had like a 90% winrate over 60 games.
edit: i went back to check. He went 63-8 over 2 weeks. two of those losses came at the end of that period. If we remove those two we get a 90% winrate. He reached the all time highest peak elo at that time.
Well, he has to translate that to offline. If 2 of those losses come from the group stages, he's out...
JD won another ultimate battle yesterday vs ssak 6-3, he is on a roll now winning bo9 vs snow, mini, barracks, jyj and now ssak... he also scores decent in proleagues... hope he can keep his good form into ASL, would love some nostalgia
On March 15 2025 19:09 Zografa wrote: JD won another ultimate battle yesterday vs ssak 6-3, he is on a roll now winning bo9 vs snow, mini, barracks, jyj and now ssak... he also scores decent in proleagues... hope he can keep his good form into ASL, would love some nostalgia
He also immediately went 0-4 vs snow right after But I think SnOw is just in ridiculously good shape right now.
I think that JD is doing much better than people suggest. It’s just, he was so dominant before that everything he does feels underwhelming. But i mean, last season, he was the clear #3 best zerg in the world, and he has only gotten better
Just from my eye test, Sharp, Barracks and Speed are extremely underrated by most. Tyson has also thrown out some really impressive games lately. Sharp, BarrackS, and Speed have been reeeeeally impressive for like a year+ now though.
I love JD but when I watch his approach to games, he just seems like a very very very good ladder Zerg right now. Nothing too impressive imo. He seems to cheese a lot, have very basic-theory builds and not be truly confident in his play. His results have been pretty good lately but when I watch the games, his approach doesn't impress me too much. When I watch SoulKey, herO, and even Queen, they're approach and game-sense / theory seems so much better than JD's right now. JD has the style where if he got lucky he could go on a Royal type of run to a title but it would have to be just that, a Royal type of run, aka a pretty lucky ass run.
On March 16 2025 09:03 G5 wrote: Just from my eye test, Sharp, Barracks and Speed are extremely underrated by most. Tyson has also thrown out some really impressive games lately. Sharp, BarrackS, and Speed have been reeeeeally impressive for like a year+ now though.
I love JD but when I watch his approach to games, he just seems like a very very very good ladder Zerg right now. Nothing too impressive imo. He seems to cheese a lot, have very basic-theory builds and not be truly confident in his play. His results have been pretty good lately but when I watch the games, his approach doesn't impress me too much. When I watch SoulKey, herO, and even Queen, they're approach and game-sense / theory seems so much better than JD's right now. JD has the style where if he got lucky he could go on a Royal type of run to a title but it would have to be just that, a Royal type of run, aka a pretty lucky ass run.
I think you are a bit hard on JD It is true that imo, he gets outsmart too easily ingame and his gameplay is ultra standard in ladder. But is he going to play like this for ASL? Usually it's a different picture we get, the best example was EffOrt for this. The question is that is JD going to polish specific build orders for ASL or not? I wonder. Not sure if he is willing to have this approach of the game coze, he is more into lazy brute force mode, so in a sense you are right, but I am confident that he could do it. He knows what it takes to win. Regardless, his recent performance vs T are quite impressive, really felt like vintage JD killing protoss with 6 mutas.
While it is true that Jaedong is a more straight forward player with less mindgames going on, he does have really good game knowledge and intuition. As long as he has information gathering, processing, and the decision making dialed in correctly, he should be capable of a round of 8 appearance. Not saying he will make it, but he is capable.
My A tier is probably a bit bloated but warranted. JD down in B maybe harsh. Action possibly too.
SnOw is 100% deserved S Rank in your list. 100%. He's without a doubt the strongest player after Soulkey. Only reason SnOw didn't get to the Finals last two ASL seasons is Soulkey being on his side of the Ro8 Bracket.
My A tier is probably a bit bloated but warranted. JD down in B maybe harsh. Action possibly too.
SnOw is 100% deserved S Rank in your list. 100%. He's without a doubt the strongest player after Soulkey. Only reason SnOw didn't get to the Finals last two ASL seasons is Soulkey being on his side of the Ro8 Bracket.
I get it but I think we have to factor in he’s a bit of a choker in ASL tournaments. Was pretty lucky to get through Speed last season and got embarrassed by SK in the semis.
If ASL was played purely online Snow would prob have won a couple of titles by now but he regresses offline. Still prob S tier but on reputation alone and not so much results.
JD just needs to play like a modern zerg and practice, i mean practice A LOT, maybe double/tripple what he is usually doing in the last few years. He has the experience, the mechanics etc, he just needs to sharpen his blade more and spend less time watching those female games and playing tennis or football for the lolz.
If he does this i think its pretty normal for him to reach the direct elimination stage.
My A tier is probably a bit bloated but warranted. JD down in B maybe harsh. Action possibly too.
SnOw is 100% deserved S Rank in your list. 100%. He's without a doubt the strongest player after Soulkey. Only reason SnOw didn't get to the Finals last two ASL seasons is Soulkey being on his side of the Ro8 Bracket.
I get it but I think we have to factor in he’s a bit of a choker in ASL tournaments. Was pretty lucky to get through Speed last season and got embarrassed by SK in the semis.
If ASL was played purely online Snow would prob have won a couple of titles by now but he regresses offline. Still prob S tier but on reputation alone and not so much results.
Yea protoss seems to just be plagued with chronic chokers: best, bisu, stork, snow... all perform much worse in offline than online usually. Only Mini and Rain have been able to win an offline tournament since remastered launched jeez.
Even during kespa stork and bisu choked a lot in individual leagues. Bisu totally dominated proleague but never made it past Ro8 after like 2009.
My A tier is probably a bit bloated but warranted. JD down in B maybe harsh. Action possibly too.
SnOw is 100% deserved S Rank in your list. 100%. He's without a doubt the strongest player after Soulkey. Only reason SnOw didn't get to the Finals last two ASL seasons is Soulkey being on his side of the Ro8 Bracket.
I get it but I think we have to factor in he’s a bit of a choker in ASL tournaments. Was pretty lucky to get through Speed last season and got embarrassed by SK in the semis.
If ASL was played purely online Snow would prob have won a couple of titles by now but he regresses offline. Still prob S tier but on reputation alone and not so much results.
Yea protoss seems to just be plagued with chronic chokers: best, bisu, stork, snow... all perform much worse in offline than online usually. Only Mini and Rain have been able to win an offline tournament since remastered launched jeez.
Even during kespa stork and bisu choked a lot in individual leagues. Bisu totally dominated proleague but never made it past Ro8 after like 2009.
I've said it several times but I'll keep beating this drum until they hear me. The ASL booths need one-way glass or P will lose to Z every time because Z can read the crowd to figure out the P tech path.
im watching old seasons of Snow before he was considered the best toss. and his reaver control was always S+++. Crazy how he just gets progressively better over time.
So I had a lot going on in RL and couldn't watch the last 4 ASL seasons. I just remember that 2023 Fantasy returned to Brood War and he was playing really well on ladder. It got me super excited. When I went through the VODs of the last 3 ASL seasons I couldn't find his name anywhere. So what happened to him? Did he quit again? Is he losing in qualifiers? Sorry for Off-topic here, but I just read the names here and Fantasy is missing again :D
On March 14 2025 00:25 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Bisu has only played bits of ladder for the past 3 months and I think his shape is worse than ever as a result. he has played zero actual pro vs pro matches
Bisu was arguably the best protoss for most of the second half of 2024. For some weird reason no one discussed about it, but he spent most of that period on the top of the eloboard ranking.
I don't know what condition he is in right now, but Artosis just cast two matches of him against Speed. If I were to judge just based on those games, I'd say he seems to be in pretty good shape. Of course it's too small of a sample size to know for sure, but at least there is not glaring sign that he sucks right now.
My A tier is probably a bit bloated but warranted. JD down in B maybe harsh. Action possibly too.
SnOw is 100% deserved S Rank in your list. 100%. He's without a doubt the strongest player after Soulkey. Only reason SnOw didn't get to the Finals last two ASL seasons is Soulkey being on his side of the Ro8 Bracket.
I get it but I think we have to factor in he’s a bit of a choker in ASL tournaments. Was pretty lucky to get through Speed last season and got embarrassed by SK in the semis.
If ASL was played purely online Snow would prob have won a couple of titles by now but he regresses offline. Still prob S tier but on reputation alone and not so much results.
Yea protoss seems to just be plagued with chronic chokers: best, bisu, stork, snow... all perform much worse in offline than online usually. Only Mini and Rain have been able to win an offline tournament since remastered launched jeez.
Even during kespa stork and bisu choked a lot in individual leagues. Bisu totally dominated proleague but never made it past Ro8 after like 2009.
I dont think Bisu was a choker. Bisu brought a protoss revolutionary meta along with him into pro play, a meta he was very good at. But naturally others will figure that meta out and craft their counter metas, which evolved into completely new metas. Once a player's meta has been figured out they start to look worse, because all of a sudden they are no longer spearheading the strategic development. They are now following in the footsteps of a new strategic leader. and that new meta might be one they are not as good at as someone else. We saw this when SoMa had his break through. He changed zerg and became fhe strategic leader of zerg. He immediately played in the top 4 of tournaments until others adopted his meta and started to build their own metas out of it or in response to it. SoMa however was still a top zerg, just couldnt get far in tournaments anymore because people had figured out ways to counter him and his strengths.
Something similar happened when 2 base carrier and arbiter got completely figured out. As a result we saw a shift to a shuttle centric meta with a strong focus on reaver and templar. And then terran figured out a response to that, which made certain terran players stand out much more than others. This happens every meta shift. A new player rises to the top figuring out how to play the meta the best, but they might not be the best at the meta that develops in response to that.
On March 17 2025 08:27 MotherOfRunes wrote: So I had a lot going on in RL and couldn't watch the last 4 ASL seasons. I just remember that 2023 Fantasy returned to Brood War and he was playing really well on ladder. It got me super excited. When I went through the VODs of the last 3 ASL seasons I couldn't find his name anywhere. So what happened to him? Did he quit again? Is he losing in qualifiers? Sorry for Off-topic here, but I just read the names here and Fantasy is missing again :D
Fantasy works in pro league of legends. He only played because he was without a team for that year. He played for a month in 2024 during the mid season break for pro league of legends.
Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
Not sure what games you've been watching, but Snow's been destroying everyone, including soulkey, at least in the last couple weeks. JD and Action took turns fighting him yesterday or the day before and they each lost to him 4:0 or something along those lines.
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
Not sure what games you've been watching, but Snow's been destroying everyone, including soulkey, at least in the last couple weeks. JD and Action took turns fighting him yesterday or the day before and they each lost to him 4:0 or something along those lines.
That might be possible we might not have watched the same games. I still think Mini is in better shape than him right now.
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
Not sure what games you've been watching, but Snow's been destroying everyone, including soulkey, at least in the last couple weeks. JD and Action took turns fighting him yesterday or the day before and they each lost to him 4:0 or something along those lines.
That might be possible we might not have watched the same games. I still think Mini is in better shape than him right now.
Mini is definitely not in better shape based on their results. SnOw's been ranked #1 on eloboard for over a month now and Mini hasn't cracked top 6 in 3 months.
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
This would be true 2 weeks ago but right now Snow is in top shape. He is destryoying Ts and especially Zs at the moment, if he continues this type of performance, he will be ASL champ.
Notable series this past week: Snow vs Light 5:4 Snow vs Soulkey 5:4 Snow vs Queen 4:1 Snow vs Jaedong 4:2 Snow vs Speed 4:0 Snow vs Light 4:0 Snow vs Speed 4:1 Snow/Mini vs Royal/Speed 9:0 (5 wins for Snow) Snow/Rush vs Jaedong/Hero 7:2 (6W-1L for Snow)
At the time of this writing he was against Light which he lost 2-4 (Light went cheese mode that series) and proceeded to 4:0 Jaedong after
This would be true 2 weeks ago but right now Snow is in top shape. He is destryoying Ts and especially Zs at the moment, if he continues this type of performance, he will be ASL champ.
Notable series this past week: Snow vs Light 5:4 Snow vs Soulkey 5:4 Snow vs Queen 4:1 Snow vs Jaedong 4:2 Snow vs Speed 4:0 Snow vs Light 4:0 Snow vs Speed 4:1 Snow/Mini vs Royal/Speed 9:0 (5 wins for Snow) Snow/Rush vs Jaedong/Hero 7:2 (6W-1L for Snow)
At the time of this writing he was against Light which he lost 2-4 (Light went cheese mode that series) and proceeded to 4:0 Jaedong after
This isn't even including the spon matches he had with Royal, Barracks, his recent win against BTS in SCSL, the recent proleagues he joined in. Man is destroying everyone, I remember Sharp declining his request for a spon
I feel like it's pretty hard to make a tier list for ASL players because everyone shows up in different shape all the time. Like Snow 4-3'd SoulKey in a showmatch recently but wouldn't be surprised to see him lose in the ro24. Best seems like the strongest mechanical Protoss but is a human slide whistle in these tournaments. Mini would have at least 1 more ASL championship if he didn't bring a samurai sword into his own balloon shop 50% of the time. etc. etc.
This kind of volatility makes for exciting tournaments but I'm hoping for a bit more this season because, within the volatility, it's becoming predictable that the less consistent players continue their trends of inconsistency while the regulars continue to populate the ro4.
For me, I'd love to see Mini and Best deliver their A game and make it to ro4 or even win. Like really, maybe Best needs to double up on his vitamin B or something. Then we'll see him just fucking eat people. I would like a Zerg like True to show some different, creative things and outperform expectations. And also, see an up-and-comer like Speed make ro8 for a cool storyline to follow.
On March 18 2025 04:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like it's pretty hard to make a tier list for ASL players because everyone shows up in different shape all the time. Like Snow 4-3'd SoulKey in a showmatch recently but wouldn't be surprised to see him lose in the ro24. Best seems like the strongest mechanical Protoss but is a human slide whistle in these tournaments. Mini would have at least 1 more ASL championship if he didn't bring a samurai sword into his own balloon shop 50% of the time. etc. etc.
This kind of volatility makes for exciting tournaments but I'm hoping for a bit more this season because, within the volatility, it's becoming predictable that the less consistent players continue their trends of inconsistency while the regulars continue to populate the ro4.
For me, I'd love to see Mini and Best deliver their A game and make it to ro4 or even win. Like really, maybe Best needs to double up on his vitamin B or something. Then we'll see him just fucking eat people. I would like a Zerg like True to show some different, creative things and outperform expectations. And also, see an up-and-comer like Speed make ro8 for a cool storyline to follow.
I really root for Best. He is Motive without the early game hiccups and better lategame. Mini has this Flash vibe where it looks almost too easy due to some superhuman strength like superman's xray vision cutting through their plans. Personally, I like Best's charges. You really feel the enemy expects it and it comes crashing either way.
On March 18 2025 04:01 RogerChillingworth wrote: I feel like it's pretty hard to make a tier list for ASL players because everyone shows up in different shape all the time. Like Snow 4-3'd SoulKey in a showmatch recently but wouldn't be surprised to see him lose in the ro24. Best seems like the strongest mechanical Protoss but is a human slide whistle in these tournaments. Mini would have at least 1 more ASL championship if he didn't bring a samurai sword into his own balloon shop 50% of the time. etc. etc.
This kind of volatility makes for exciting tournaments but I'm hoping for a bit more this season because, within the volatility, it's becoming predictable that the less consistent players continue their trends of inconsistency while the regulars continue to populate the ro4.
For me, I'd love to see Mini and Best deliver their A game and make it to ro4 or even win. Like really, maybe Best needs to double up on his vitamin B or something. Then we'll see him just fucking eat people. I would like a Zerg like True to show some different, creative things and outperform expectations. And also, see an up-and-comer like Speed make ro8 for a cool storyline to follow.
I really root for Best. He is Motive without the early game hiccups and better lategame. Mini has this Flash vibe where it looks almost too easy due to some superhuman strength like superman's xray vision cutting through their plans. Personally, I like Best's charges. You really feel the enemy expects it and it comes crashing either way.
Totally agree. And yeah Best's charges are sweet. Gonna order a set of Depends for every Terran this season.
On March 18 2025 06:17 Emnjay808 wrote: Artosis put Snow in B tier. that’s one way to farm engagement.
I don't understand Artosis' obsession with Hero. He always mentions him right after mentioning Soulkey and states they are almost at the same level, which is in no way true. He also put Snow and Mind together in tier B, and Speed together with Barracks in C. Also, Mini has been in terrible shape for over half a year, but somehow he puts him in the "Could win ASL" tier. For someone who lives and breaths BW, he has some terrible takes.
Some random win rates on eloboard the last 12 months: - Soulkey: 61.6%. - Snow: 59.8% - Hero: 52.9% - Mini 52.7%
Last 3 months: - Snow: 62.6%, 257 games - Soulkey: 60.5%, 129 games - Hero: 55.9%, 245 games - Mini 51.3%, 226 games
On March 18 2025 12:11 cheesehuehue wrote: I don't understand Artosis' obsession with Hero. He always mentions him right after mentioning Soulkey and states they are almost at the same level, which is in no way true. He also put Snow and Mind together in tier B, and Speed together with Barracks in C. Also, Mini has been in terrible shape for over half a year, but somehow he puts him in the "Could win ASL" tier. For someone who lives and breaths BW, he has some terrible takes.
Some random win rates on eloboard the last 12 months: - Soulkey: 61.6%. - Snow: 59.8% - Hero: 52.9% - Mini 52.7%
Last 3 months: - Snow: 62.6%, 257 games - Soulkey: 60.5%, 129 games - Hero: 55.9%, 245 games - Mini 51.3%, 226 games
I think Artosis uses them as McGuffin to hide his tesagi bias.
On March 18 2025 12:11 cheesehuehue wrote: I don't understand Artosis' obsession with Hero. He always mentions him right after mentioning Soulkey and states they are almost at the same level, which is in no way true. He also put Snow and Mind together in tier B, and Speed together with Barracks in C. Also, Mini has been in terrible shape for over half a year, but somehow he puts him in the "Could win ASL" tier. For someone who lives and breaths BW, he has some terrible takes.
I remember a friend sending me a clip of him discussing his wishlist for balance changes. I couldn't tell to what extent he was serious but his ideas would have obliterated any semblance of balance. So yeah, I agree with the bolded part.^^ To his defense: This whole tier list thing is mostly about gut feelings. You can back up your list with statistics all you want, ladder/sponmatch statistics don't really translate to ASL performance. For example, Snow has been dominant outside of ASL before but couldn't make it past the Ro8. Most of the time, Mini seems to perform worse than Snow online but offline he almost always seems to be the more dangerous contender (for others and himself). In the end, despite recent win statistics, personal traits such as playstyle, practice regime, experience offline, strenghts/wekeanesses etc. can easily be used as arguments to bump or drop any given player a tier or two...
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
This would be true 2 weeks ago but right now Snow is in top shape. He is destryoying Ts and especially Zs at the moment, if he continues this type of performance, he will be ASL champ.
Notable series this past week: Snow vs Light 5:4 Snow vs Soulkey 5:4 Snow vs Queen 4:1 Snow vs Jaedong 4:2 Snow vs Speed 4:0 Snow vs Light 4:0 Snow vs Speed 4:1 Snow/Mini vs Royal/Speed 9:0 (5 wins for Snow) Snow/Rush vs Jaedong/Hero 7:2 (6W-1L for Snow)
At the time of this writing he was against Light which he lost 2-4 (Light went cheese mode that series) and proceeded to 4:0 Jaedong after
I think he lost 2-4 to Light yesterday. There are just so many series that were not recorded, possibly because one player was playing offstream, possibly because eloboard couldn't keep track of everything.
I think he has been in worse shape (compared to the dominance he had around 2023-2024) since the birth of his second child. So is Light.
But he would always gonna win against JD, Queen, Royal, Speed in 7 games series anyway. The big tests will always be Soulkey, Light and to an extent Hero.
On March 17 2025 12:03 vTv.Marine wrote: Snow is amazing, and I like him a lot, but if you’ve been following him recently, he doesn’t seem to be in his best shape. I definitely wouldn’t put him in S right now. I would even go as far as putting Mini in front of him as of now
This would be true 2 weeks ago but right now Snow is in top shape. He is destryoying Ts and especially Zs at the moment, if he continues this type of performance, he will be ASL champ.
Notable series this past week: Snow vs Light 5:4 Snow vs Soulkey 5:4 Snow vs Queen 4:1 Snow vs Jaedong 4:2 Snow vs Speed 4:0 Snow vs Light 4:0 Snow vs Speed 4:1 Snow/Mini vs Royal/Speed 9:0 (5 wins for Snow) Snow/Rush vs Jaedong/Hero 7:2 (6W-1L for Snow)
At the time of this writing he was against Light which he lost 2-4 (Light went cheese mode that series) and proceeded to 4:0 Jaedong after
I think he lost 2-4 to Light yesterday. There are just so many series that were not recorded, possibly because one player was playing offstream, possibly because eloboard couldn't keep track of everything.
I think he has been in worse shape (compared to the dominance he had around 2023-2024) since the birth of his second child. So is Light.
But he would always gonna win against JD, Queen, Royal, Speed in 7 games series anyway. The big tests will always be Soulkey, Light and to an extent Hero.
Yep he did as I said at the end of my reply. After that he proceeded to 4:0 Jaedong. There are some unrecorded matches yet in eloboard like his loss to Light yesterday, The one where Snow and Mini 9:0ed Royal and Speed and a spon match with Speed where he 4:0ed him
I wonder, is Bisu gonna be the first "offline" player ever in ASL now?.
Dude just goes offstream for 3 months, then shows up at the Afreeca studio. Probably will get confronted by fans on stage lol. Maybe that's Afreeca strategy to fill the studio?
On March 19 2025 05:06 TMNT wrote: I wonder, is Bisu gonna be the first "offline" player ever in ASL now?.
Dude just goes offstream for 3 months, then shows up at the Afreeca studio. Probably will get confronted by fans on stage lol. Maybe that's Afreeca strategy to fill the studio?
i wonder if bisu has passive income or something that precludes him from having to stream to earn a living
On March 19 2025 05:06 TMNT wrote: I wonder, is Bisu gonna be the first "offline" player ever in ASL now?.
Dude just goes offstream for 3 months, then shows up at the Afreeca studio. Probably will get confronted by fans on stage lol. Maybe that's Afreeca strategy to fill the studio?
i wonder if bisu has passive income or something that precludes him from having to stream to earn a living
On March 19 2025 05:06 TMNT wrote: I wonder, is Bisu gonna be the first "offline" player ever in ASL now?.
Dude just goes offstream for 3 months, then shows up at the Afreeca studio. Probably will get confronted by fans on stage lol. Maybe that's Afreeca strategy to fill the studio?
i wonder if bisu has passive income or something that precludes him from having to stream to earn a living
Perks of being single.
he's a ladies' man, he can definitely remain single and enjoy all the fun lol
On March 19 2025 05:06 TMNT wrote: I wonder, is Bisu gonna be the first "offline" player ever in ASL now?.
Dude just goes offstream for 3 months, then shows up at the Afreeca studio. Probably will get confronted by fans on stage lol. Maybe that's Afreeca strategy to fill the studio?
i wonder if bisu has passive income or something that precludes him from having to stream to earn a living
S: SoulKey, Mini, ZeLoT, jinjin A: hero, Best, Light, Rush B: Bisu, Queen, sSak, MC C: Jaedong, Speed, gypsy, Scan, TY D: yabsab, 토끼드래곤, Rain, Harstem E: your athletic friend who thinks he owns a copy of starcraft F: Snow's mom, a TV dinner, SnOw
My list: S: SK, Snow, Shuttle, Speed, Scan, Skey, Sharp, Stork, Ssak (sorry for putting so many here, I just see their potential) A: Action - the lone wolf B: Bisu, Best, BTS, Barracks C: Calm D: Nobody getting the D here, we're all straight shooters Will finish the list when Flash is back in ASL! (Spoiler: he's F tier).
JD often has short spikes of performance from time to time that make some of his fans hopeful that he will do well in ASL. But those spikes are usually short. He is sitting at 1200 elo right now.
These are his last few games (as many as could fit in my screen). Don't get your hopes high about him if you don't want to get disappointed. As usual, he will likely be knocked out by the ro16, or ro8 at best.
Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games. Please, someone tell him that logic is fallacious and he shouldn't be cherry picking like that. Maybe send him a wikipedia link to raise his awareness
On March 23 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games. Please, someone tell him that logic is fallacious and he shouldn't be cherry picking like that. Maybe send him a wikipedia link to raise his awareness
On March 23 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games. Please, someone tell him that logic is fallacious and he shouldn't be cherry picking like that. Maybe send him a wikipedia link to raise his awareness
Living rent free in your head. Enjoy your life.
Oh I do enjoy my life, for example at moments when I called out your stupidity.
On March 23 2025 02:24 cheesehuehue wrote: JD often has short spikes of performance from time to time that make some of his fans hopeful that he will do well in ASL. But those spikes are usually short. He is sitting at 1200 elo right now.
These are his last few games (as many as could fit in my screen). Don't get your hopes high about him if you don't want to get disappointed. As usual, he will likely be knocked out by the ro16, or ro8 at best.
Do take note of the names he's playing against all being current top performers for their race. 0-1 vs ggaemo. 1-0 vs tyson. 0-1 vs rush. 2-2 vs speed. 2-0 vs mind. 0-4 vs snow. 0-1 vs mind. 0-1 vs flash. 2-1 vs best 0-3 vs SnOw + 0-2 vs Rush (same bo9) 0-1 vs Royal 1-2 vs Royal. + 1-1 vs Best (same bo9) 1-2 vs mind 4-2 vs RoyaL
In total that'd be, ignoring ggaemo, flash and tyson because those are single matches: 0-3 vs Rush 2-2 vs Speed 3-3 vs Mind 0-7 vs Snow 3-2 vs Best 5-5 vs RoyaL
If you look at it like this it doesn't look as bad. Its largely Rush and SnOw absolutely dominating vs Jaedong that makes that game history look "bad". But SnOw did the same to everyone he has played this month. Nobody except Soulkey and Speed have managed to do well vs SnOw. Everyone else has lost. And Rush has also been doing really well, even getting an all kill in KCM. Your argument boils down to "Jaedong lost vs the BEST ACTIVE PLAYERS so he's now BAD!"
His prediction is most likely right though. Doubt anyone would argue that JD is more than a Ro16/8 player. Just like almost everyone predicted that Soulkey would beat Snow in both previous seasons.
But since the dude once condemned me because I... made that prediction, he has now slapped himself in the face lol.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote: His prediction is most likely right though. Doubt anyone would argue that JD is more than a Ro16/8 player. Just like almost everyone predicted that Soulkey would beat Snow in both previous seasons.
But since the dude once condemned me because I... made that prediction, he has now slapped himself in the face lol.
Jaedong is definitely Ro16 material currently. The ro8 potentials would have to eliminate each other in Ro16 for Jaedong to be capable of getting a Ro8 spot. Soulkey, SnOw, Best, Light and HerO seem likes guaranteed Ro8 material. Question then becomes who you fill that Ro8 out with. Speed, Rush, Queen, Mini, RoyaL, Sharp? I would put Jaedong behind those players currently albeit different from my original power rankings haha. Many Players are currently just in asburdly good shape.
On March 23 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games.
Is there any other way to make predictions other than based on past events? Are you really that imbecile? I cannot fathom how you managed to become so confidently stupid. I mean, is it raw talent or did you train really hard. I've got to acknowledge your dedication to your craft, though. Kudos to you.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote:
But since the dude once condemned me because I... made that prediction
No, moron! I didn't call you out on the fact that you used past results for making predictions about future outcomes. I called you out for the flawed reasoning and approach you used to make predictions. So good luck attempting to use false equivalence next time. Ah, do you also need a link explaining what false equivalence is? Here, go nuts.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote: His prediction is most likely right though.
You said it yourself. I made a reasonable prediction. You didn't. And why are you even bringing up something that happened LAST YEAR? You just said you agreed with I said, and still you decided to start an argument about something that happened LAST YEAR? Are you really STILL salty about it? Stop being a loser and move on.
On March 23 2025 08:35 TMNT wrote: Oh I do enjoy my life
So does my dog. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Now take your head out of the window, you are drooling on the backseat.
Speed just beat Snow and Mini again in a 2v2 series with Hero going 5:4. Looking like he has a perfomance spike. Speed does feel like he has been the player that's grinding the hardest currently.
On March 23 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games.
Is there any other way to make predictions other than based on past events? Are you really that imbecile? I cannot fathom how you managed to become so confidently stupid. I mean, is it raw talent or did you train really hard. I've got to acknowledge your dedication to your craft, though. Kudos to you.
But since the dude once condemned me because I... made that prediction
No, moron! I didn't call you out on the fact that you used past results for making predictions about future outcomes. I called you out for the flawed reasoning and approach you used to make predictions. So good luck attempting to use false equivalence next time. Ah, do you also need a link explaining what false equivalence is? Here, go nuts.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote: His prediction is most likely right though.
You said it yourself. I made a reasonable prediction. You didn't. And why are you even bringing up something that happened LAST YEAR? You just said you agreed with I said, and still you decided to start an argument about something that happened LAST YEAR? Are you really STILL salty about it? Stop being a loser and move on.
On March 23 2025 08:35 TMNT wrote: Oh I do enjoy my life
So does my dog. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Now take your head out of the window, you are drooling on the backseat.
See? The simple fact that you decided to "call out" someone for.... making an innocuous prediction that many people were also making, already makes you a dick. You don't see people going around trying to call out others' flaws in reasoning of making their tier list do you?
And no, it is not false equivalent, because the equivalent here is not the logic of your prediction, but how you react like a dick to other people posting normal things on a forum.
And if I really want to scrutinise your "approach", I can also say the JD's results you posted do not justify your prediction, because as RJBTV pointed out, he essentially just lost to Rush and Snow. So can I call out your "flawed reasoning" now?
Besides there's no way it is not reasonable to predict Snow would lose to Soulkey in a Bo7 because he... check notes... lost two Bo7s to him just a week before the semifinals.
Lastly I can't be salty because I wasn't in the wrong back then. I simply saw the irony in your post and decided to make fun of it (even if it risks me being banned) because dicks like you deserve so at any point of your existence on this board.
At least JD demonstrated recently that on a "good" day he can win a bo7 vs anyone, that is enough for me to hope for a quarter final It's unfortunate but I think he doesn't train enough for more, last stream lasted 10 hours, bro played like 3 games. You won't win ASL this way, pretty sure he knows that.
On March 23 2025 18:26 iFU.pauline wrote: At least JD demonstrated recently that on a "good" day he can win a bo7 vs anyone, that is enough for me to hope for a quarter final It's unfortunate but I think he doesn't train enough for more, last stream lasted 10 hours, bro played like 3 games. You won't win ASL this way, pretty sure he knows that.
Honestly, that is the best we can expect out of any pro these days. When I heard Artosis say, "Speed is the most active pro in ladder" I didn't make much of it, but when I saw his vulture control in the game against Paralyse I said wait what do we have here! Then, it hit me: ambushing reaver drops with vulture surround like a single hotbox is only possible by constant training and what I'm witnessing is great mechanics. I guess nothing replaces putting in more work. I think pros have limits to how long they can stretch their games. I think we have seen it with Snow. He isn't one who always picks up steam in the early game for instance. All sections of the game are at the same importance, so what pros compete on is peak adaptability.
On March 23 2025 18:26 iFU.pauline wrote: At least JD demonstrated recently that on a "good" day he can win a bo7 vs anyone, that is enough for me to hope for a quarter final It's unfortunate but I think he doesn't train enough for more, last stream lasted 10 hours, bro played like 3 games. You won't win ASL this way, pretty sure he knows that.
Honestly, that is the best we can expect out of any pro these days. When I heard Artosis say, "Speed is the most active pro in ladder" I didn't make much of it, but when I saw his vulture control in the game against Paralyse I said wait what do we have here! Then, it hit me: ambushing reaver drops with vulture surround like a single hotbox is only possible by constant training and what I'm witnessing is great mechanics. I guess nothing replaces putting in more work. I think pros have limits to how long they can stretch their games. I think we have seen it with Snow. He isn't one who always picks up steam in the early game for instance. All sections of the game are at the same importance, so what pros compete on is peak adaptability.
Speed also plays large amounts of BGH. His activity level is pretty high and it for sure has allowed for his talent to really develop. Been a fan of his since 2020 and felt that he could grow to be a powerhouse.
On March 23 2025 05:17 TMNT wrote: Oh look, someone is making a prediction of future games based on the results of past games.
Is there any other way to make predictions other than based on past events? Are you really that imbecile? I cannot fathom how you managed to become so confidently stupid. I mean, is it raw talent or did you train really hard. I've got to acknowledge your dedication to your craft, though. Kudos to you.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote:
But since the dude once condemned me because I... made that prediction
No, moron! I didn't call you out on the fact that you used past results for making predictions about future outcomes. I called you out for the flawed reasoning and approach you used to make predictions. So good luck attempting to use false equivalence next time. Ah, do you also need a link explaining what false equivalence is? Here, go nuts.
On March 23 2025 10:12 TMNT wrote: His prediction is most likely right though.
You said it yourself. I made a reasonable prediction. You didn't. And why are you even bringing up something that happened LAST YEAR? You just said you agreed with I said, and still you decided to start an argument about something that happened LAST YEAR? Are you really STILL salty about it? Stop being a loser and move on.
On March 23 2025 08:35 TMNT wrote: Oh I do enjoy my life
So does my dog. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. Now take your head out of the window, you are drooling on the backseat.
See? The simple fact that you decided to "call out" someone for.... making an innocuous prediction that many people were also making, already makes you a dick. You don't see people going around trying to call out others' flaws in reasoning of making their tier list do you?
And no, it is not false equivalent, because the equivalent here is not the logic of your prediction, but how you react like a dick to other people posting normal things on a forum.
And if I really want to scrutinise your "approach", I can also say the JD's results you posted do not justify your prediction, because as RJBTV pointed out, he essentially just lost to Rush and Snow. So can I call out your "flawed reasoning" now?
Besides there's no way it is not reasonable to predict Snow would lose to Soulkey in a Bo7 because he... check notes... lost two Bo7s to him just a week before the semifinals.
Lastly I can't be salty because I wasn't in the wrong back then. I simply saw the irony in your post and decided to make fun of it (even if it risks me being banned) because dicks like you deserve so at any point of your existence on this board.
I'm not reading that. Just move on. I mean, if you can.
JD will probably go to Ro8 at best. his ZvP and ZvT has been looking pretty good as of late, although he has some moments of faltering... his ZvT hydra-lurker and late game has improved and his ZvP hydra-centric plays have been pretty decent, so I hope he goes to Ro8, but beyond that it might be a bit hard against the top of the game at the moment... but glad to see him improving. Some of his plays lately feels like his prime JD days
On March 25 2025 23:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: i really undersold some players on my first tier list draft. wasnt sure about placing some players higher but I should have. the signs were there.
I'm still eagerly anticipating the miracle of Best.
On March 25 2025 23:01 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: i really undersold some players on my first tier list draft. wasnt sure about placing some players higher but I should have. the signs were there.
I'm still eagerly anticipating the miracle of Best.
From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
On April 03 2025 19:53 Zografa wrote: From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
On April 03 2025 19:53 Zografa wrote: From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
Well online he still looked very solid, but the game vs Stork reminds me of Queen a year ago: play not to lose
On April 03 2025 19:53 Zografa wrote: From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
Well online he still looked very solid, but the game vs Stork reminds me of Queen a year ago: play not to lose
JD is literally the most experienced offline player in the ASL, what would bring his form in live event down?
On April 03 2025 19:53 Zografa wrote: From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
Well online he still looked very solid, but the game vs Stork reminds me of Queen a year ago: play not to lose
JD is literally the most experienced offline player in the ASL, what would bring his form in live event down?
He has said himself that he gets in negative mindset on stage, self doubt and such. He doesnt have the same confidence anymore because his micro and multitasking is no longer on its own unique level. most pros have his level of micro and multlitasking these days. He can no longer sqeeuze out small advantages with it. These days its more about optimizations with timings, exact unit and worker numbers, misdirections, cutting corners, decisive attacks and retreats, securing areas etc. Jaedong has shown to be weaker at specifically misdiredtion, decisive movements and exact unit numbers.
On April 03 2025 19:53 Zografa wrote: From his performance in ro24 alone JD seems to be tier 4 for the upcoming ro16(i mean only obviously worse players than him are Scan and probably Action(not sure tbf).
He will generally be drafted as tier 3 probably because his ZvZ is unpredictable and SK will want him out of his group.
Well online he still looked very solid, but the game vs Stork reminds me of Queen a year ago: play not to lose
JD is literally the most experienced offline player in the ASL, what would bring his form in live event down?
He has said himself that he gets in negative mindset on stage, self doubt and such. He doesnt have the same confidence anymore because his micro and multitasking is no longer on its own unique level. most pros have his level of micro and multlitasking these days. He can no longer sqeeuze out small advantages with it. These days its more about optimizations with timings, exact unit and worker numbers, misdirections, cutting corners, decisive attacks and retreats, securing areas etc. Jaedong has shown to be weaker at specifically misdiredtion, decisive movements and exact unit numbers.
Thats true, however it just means the field got better and JD just did not improve on top of what he was capable 15 years ago, not that he is bad offline, in fact if anything - he should have advantage offline because he is used to play in front of crowds and in a studio set up. He has probably more than 200 big live events(both BW and SC2 combined).
On April 03 2025 17:17 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Now that the first round is over, the first list seems pretty accurate. JD probably is b-tier though, same as light
Yep, while at that I would highly recommend dropping Hero to B too. You don't become an athlete of the sport by binging drinks. That includes the both of them. I love rooting for them, but they need to wisen up their game. Starcraft is too important to throw your health this time around. Good health and smart reflexes win games.
On April 04 2025 09:32 TornadoSteve wrote: What am i missing here ? Why is Rush so low ? ...and Rain so high ?!??
It isn't that Rush is low, its that others are higher because they are playing better at this moment in time. Rain is an enigma. he somehow pulls up and performs despite looking bad.
On April 03 2025 17:17 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Now that the first round is over, the first list seems pretty accurate. JD probably is b-tier though, same as light
Yep, while at that I would highly recommend dropping Hero to B too. You don't become an athlete of the sport by binging drinks. That includes the both of them. I love rooting for them, but they need to wisen up their game. Starcraft is too important to throw your health this time around. Good health and smart reflexes win games.
What's the context here? Is Hero drinking a lot on stream or what? He looked really strong in his group, a lot stronger than Light and especially Jaedong.
That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
On April 03 2025 17:17 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Now that the first round is over, the first list seems pretty accurate. JD probably is b-tier though, same as light
Yep, while at that I would highly recommend dropping Hero to B too. You don't become an athlete of the sport by binging drinks. That includes the both of them. I love rooting for them, but they need to wisen up their game. Starcraft is too important to throw your health this time around. Good health and smart reflexes win games.
What's the context here? Is Hero drinking a lot on stream or what? He looked really strong in his group, a lot stronger than Light and especially Jaedong.
Good. If you look at the ro4 introductions last season that is what he said while sharp said he exercised and got in shape.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
On April 03 2025 17:17 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Now that the first round is over, the first list seems pretty accurate. JD probably is b-tier though, same as light
Yep, while at that I would highly recommend dropping Hero to B too. You don't become an athlete of the sport by binging drinks. That includes the both of them. I love rooting for them, but they need to wisen up their game. Starcraft is too important to throw your health this time around. Good health and smart reflexes win games.
What's the context here? Is Hero drinking a lot on stream or what? He looked really strong in his group, a lot stronger than Light and especially Jaedong.
Good. If you look at the ro4 introductions last season that is what he said while sharp said he exercised and got in shape.
Ah thanks, I almost never catch these interviews because they are only being translated in the Tastosis VoDs.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
Yeah pretty much. And for all the unhealthy aspects of team houses, I think they actually cared more for the players' health in terms of diet/meals, regular workouts etc. than players do for themselves nowadays. Most players during the Kespa era were in fairly good shape considering they spent 8-12 hours a days sitting in front of a PC. Overweight players were rare. Nowadays, almost every ex-pro gained a considerable amount of weight.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
It isn't evident what neurotoxic actually means, but heart is also a nerve tissue. If you have cardiotoxicity, you will have arrhythmias which is the same as heart failure. You can't compete if you have atrial fibrillation(I learned that from the O.C.). AF causes 25% deficit in cardiac output. When you compete every bit of stamina counts.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
Yeah, I mean I didn't try to imply them being overweight or drinking does not affect their performance as a progamer. Well in fact there are probably downsides to everything they do as a human being.
It's just most of these guys are living the life of a streamer now (drinking , unhealthy diet, sitting too much, lack of exercises, and most importantly, terrible sleeping habit), not professional gamer, let alone athlete. So to call them or hold them to the standards of sports athletes just feels weird.
On March 13 2025 03:12 iFU.pauline wrote: Also Jaedong rank is just about right, he is in a much better shape than the last time I watched him in 2021, I hope he continues to grind games everyday as he does at the moment, he might overtake Soulkey in the future who knows.
Ro24 had me worried after the first match between him and Stork, but seeing his play vs Skey and then the decider match vs Stork, it's clear he's still got that killer instinct. Say what you want about the ling all in being cheesy (Artosis sure did), the fact that he caught the probe, identified the opportunity to all-in, then committed to it and won vs a player as familiar with his play as Stork is testament to the fact that the Tyrant still lives.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
Yeah, I mean I didn't try to imply them being overweight or drinking does not affect their performance as a progamer. Well in fact there are probably downsides to everything they do as a human being.
It's just most of these guys are living the life of a streamer now (drinking , unhealthy diet, sitting too much, lack of exercises, and most importantly, terrible sleeping habit), not professional gamer, let alone athlete. So to call them or hold them to the standards of sports athletes just feels weird.
you're definitely right that it is pointless to hold them to the same standards. Different ball game all together compared to traditionally physical sports.
On April 04 2025 19:36 TMNT wrote: That's some weird take. I mean they are the best progamers out there but I'm more of an athlete than these guys lol. If we consider physical appearance most of them are overweight I believe and yeah Hero is probably only second to Mong in that category.
Doesn't limit his capability of hitting SH, mind.
There's negative effects to being obese for a gamer, but it comes mostly from the increased exposed risk to bad sleep. Sleep has been proven over and over to be one of the most important factors in facilitating consistent cognitive performance at a high level. Worse sleep decreases cognitive performance over time. There is a linear correlation between obesity and Obstructive Sleep Apnea. In obese people, fat deposits in the upper respiratory tract narrow the airway; there is a decrease in muscle activity in this region, leading to hypoxic and apneic episodes, ultimately resulting in sleep apnea. These hypoxia/apnea episodes lead to a decrease in oxygen that is available in body tissues and blood vessels. The decreased oxygenation causes tissue hypoxia, which is the main contributing factor to atherosclerosis, the main risk factor for Cardiovascular Diseases. So for both present day performance and future health there's risks involved.
Another issue is there not being any safe amount of alcohol consumption. Any amount of alcohol is neurotoxic and already has a negative effects on the body and cognitive function + Show Spoiler [negative side effects of low amounts o…] +
Yeah, I mean I didn't try to imply them being overweight or drinking does not affect their performance as a progamer. Well in fact there are probably downsides to everything they do as a human being.
It's just most of these guys are living the life of a streamer now (drinking , unhealthy diet, sitting too much, lack of exercises, and most importantly, terrible sleeping habit), not professional gamer, let alone athlete. So to call them or hold them to the standards of sports athletes just feels weird.
Whether we call them streamers, or esports people is just wordplay. What matters is good preparation and whether they take the title seriously, health being no less important than good sparring partners to ready up some build orders. Sharp went further than Hero last season and all things being equal it will happen again if either of them compete on worse preparation.
I think there is a heavy optimisation pressure on the early game and trying to lengthen that period in the game. That really pushes the envelope this season. It started with Terrans doing mineral only expansions and heavy vulture play, zergs doing early contains and protosses dropping dragoons entirely in recent rounds. Each time the players got more out of the early game and those who couldn't adapt dropped out, unfairly to those who might miss this meta shift. I won't go as far as to say it was Hero who started it in ASL 15 game 5 of the Ro4, but this gutsy play at zerg contain in order to push the terran opponent into a specific tech tree - academy play rather than mech - is one of the manifestations of this early game pressure. I think Queen started it proper vs Flash last season, but the true champion has been True. It was totally gutsy of him trying this against Barracks out of all the terrans. Hero and Action have also done variations of these. Hero have given up a third, Action on the other hand was even bolder: he stayed at two base and put Tyson on the defensive by faking out a hydra bust, but backed out without firing a single shot. These are essentially the same misdirections more openly fielded by Soulkey, however with Soulkey you get to see the commit in the tech tree. With these other breakthrough players, there isn't a commitment to any tech tree. The genius is extreme flexibility in doing whatever you want under the cover of fog and putting the onus on the opponent to solve what to do next and trying to gain an advantage from their mistakes. Protosses also have done this 2-gate pushes that really widen the gap of map control in PvZ. People really criticised Bisu, but he is actually one of the forerunners of merging of the timelines back to 2005. If he gets his way, the long awaited zerg dominance since 2005 when macro became a thing is coming to an end. I think we are up for less boring early games and more excitement to come.
I would switch Mini for BesT there. Mini is só good at longe series and risky plays while BesT seems so affected by stage games that i would never bet on BesT going further than Mini even if offline he was getting better results.
I would switch Mini for BesT there. Mini is só good at longe series and risky plays while BesT seems so affected by stage games that i would never bet on BesT going further than Mini even if offline he was getting better results.
Yeah, BeSt gets hyped up every season and then at some point just falls apart. Dude has been in every ASL since ASL 2 and has managed to make it to the Ro4... I think twice? Rarely ever even the Ro8.
Any insight as to some of the group politics that went on? The swap seems weird though, I would’ve expected Soulkey to want Bisu if he wanted a free group out, though picking hero also means SK won’t see him in the Ro8 at minimum
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
if he want to increase popularity he needs to work on his casting. Most of the time his just reading of the screen thinking this is a podcast or the viewers are blind, at best B rank game knowledge. And his monotone casting like his in casting in a library.
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
Are you serious?
Why are those games being casted months later?
I guess because SCTV has a shit tons of these replays and wants to roll them all out. But to me it feels pointless to cast games from last season while the current one is being played. It's two different map pools!
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
if he want to increase popularity he needs to work on his casting. Most of the time his just reading of the screen thinking this is a podcast or the viewers are blind, at best B rank game knowledge. And his monotone casting like his in casting in a library.
Nyoken please come back next season!!
I think you are harsh, his castings are enjoyable IMO and he brings lots of input. It’s true that he le bring the level of insight of Artosis and Nyoken, who understand the game at an exceptional depth. But i watch his casts and enjoy them.
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
Are you serious?
Why are those games being casted months later?
I guess because SCTV has a shit tons of these replays and wants to roll them all out. But to me it feels pointless to cast games from last season while the current one is being played. It's two different map pools!
They really could roll them out as they are being played, that makes zero sense from them..
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
Are you serious?
Why are those games being casted months later?
I guess because SCTV has a shit tons of these replays and wants to roll them all out. But to me it feels pointless to cast games from last season while the current one is being played. It's two different map pools!
They really could roll them out as they are being played, that makes zero sense from them..
Actually there's another reason that just occured to me. These series are monetized by SCTV (you need a subscription to their Korean channel to see the lastest games). They only release old VODs for free and Saiyan is feeding off these old replays. Wouldn't make sense for SCTV to demand a subscription for new VODs while at the same time giving them away for free to Saiyan.
On April 26 2025 04:27 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: In the duel series
Which were played at least six months ago.
I know Saiyan is trying to increase popularity of his channel by pretending these games are recent, but please, not at the expense of misleading the community.
Sad thing is when asked about the time the games were played in the comment, he said he didn't know, as if the time isn't imprinted in the replays lol.
Are you serious?
Why are those games being casted months later?
Because they used to be sctv member only, casted in korean. I think Saiyan got the agreement with sctv to cast the SOOP duel series in february or so. But he can only cast what he receives from sctv. And I think ScTV gets access to the live game lobbies, and thus has autosave, through an agreement with the chinese sponsors and casters, because for as far as I know, these used to be organized by chinese money men starting way back to february 2024 or something. I know LoveTTT and WONIU were involved for the chinese organizers.
Anyway bottom line, saiyan gets video or replays from sctv. And he is working through the backlog of material he receives. While it isnt super recent, its largely still within half a year ago. Its great we get to enjoy semi-recent pro content through tri-lateral cooperation. If he gets video feed, he might not have the replay files and not know the date. if he gets replay files he should have access to the date in the replay directory but he might not know the date is shown there.
It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
If you look through the comments in these videos almost all of our naive foreign viewers think these games are relevant to the current ASL. Baffling that no one questioned the map pool.
Even more weird, there's one series of Snow vs Light where the map pool is as follows: Polestar - Retro - Radeon - Blitz - Polypoid - Minstrel - DejaVu. Uhm that's like a mix of maps from ASL19, 18, 17 and [which season did we have Polypoid?]. Why on earth would Snow and Light agree to play on such a map pool in 2025? It makes me think it may not even be a series, but SCTV just threw a bunch of old replays together to make it look like a Bo7 and Saiyan was like "whatever, as long as I get another video out".
If he gets video feed, he might not have the replay files and not know the date. if he gets replay files he should have access to the date in the replay directory but he might not know the date is shown there.
I believe he has access to the replays, because I double checked a few games between Saiyan and SCTV channels, and the observer view is different at the same time in the same game.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
If you look through the comments in these videos almost all of our naive foreign viewers think these games are relevant to the current ASL. Baffling that no one questioned the map pool.
Even more weird, there's one series of Snow vs Light where the map pool is as follows: Polestar - Retro - Radeon - Blitz - Polypoid - Minstrel - DejaVu. Uhm that's like a mix of maps from ASL19, 18, 17 and [which season did we have Polypoid?]. Why on earth would Snow and Light agree to play on such a map pool in 2025? It makes me think it may not even be a series, but SCTV just threw a bunch of old replays together to make it look like a Bo7 and Saiyan was like "whatever, as long as I get another video out".
If he gets video feed, he might not have the replay files and not know the date. if he gets replay files he should have access to the date in the replay directory but he might not know the date is shown there.
I believe he has access to the replays, because I double checked a few games between Saiyan and SCTV channels, and the observer view is different at the same time in the same game.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
I think this is where you are wrong. These casts are first and foremost entertainment, nothing else. There are people who cast or have been casting "random" replays from the ladder of games they found exciting.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
I think this is where you are wrong. These casts are first and foremost entertainment, nothing else. There are people who cast or have been casting "random" replays from the ladder of games they found exciting.
They are entertainment and disinformation. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
If you put out these casts you have a responsiblity to inform viewers. What if I find a series where JD beat Light 4-0 a year ago and advertise it right before they play each other in the Ro8 of the current ASL. I know full well what I'm doing and the consequences it could lead to.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
I think this is where you are wrong. These casts are first and foremost entertainment, nothing else. There are people who cast or have been casting "random" replays from the ladder of games they found exciting.
They are entertainment and disinformation. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
If you put out these casts you have a responsiblity to inform viewers. What if I find a series where JD beat Light 4-0 a year ago and advertise it right before they play each other in the Ro8 of the current ASL. I know full well what I'm doing and the consequences it could lead to.
I understand the argument, I just don't think there is that much of a responsibility case here. We are talking about watching Broodwar here. You make it sound like we are talking about current day politics and the responsibility of news anchors. Nobody is seriously going to be hurt here.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
I think this is where you are wrong. These casts are first and foremost entertainment, nothing else. There are people who cast or have been casting "random" replays from the ladder of games they found exciting.
They are entertainment and disinformation. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
If you put out these casts you have a responsiblity to inform viewers. What if I find a series where JD beat Light 4-0 a year ago and advertise it right before they play each other in the Ro8 of the current ASL. I know full well what I'm doing and the consequences it could lead to.
I understand the argument, I just don't think there is that much of a responsibility case here. We are talking about watching Broodwar here. You make it sound like we are talking about current day politics and the responsibility of news anchors. Nobody is seriously going to be hurt here.
Depends on what you define hurt.
Say I'm a clueless viewer who watches these games which actually dated 6 months to 1 year ago, and think they were played recently, and gets my hope up for certain players, only to find out they are diabolical now because in BW form can change pretty quick. Or worse, people start calling some players mentally weak or something, because "just last week I saw him crushing in the SDS but today he choked in front of an offline audience".
Just on this board there are many JD fans who get their hope up every ASL. Expensive-Law-9830 probably one of them, hence he posted the results of JD 4-1 Snow thinking it was recently. In the comment they are all like "JD is on fire right now".
I wouldn't call it hurt. But there's clearly a negative impact here, just because the content creator doesn't want to reveal the dates of the games, presumably for their own economic gain.
On April 26 2025 19:08 TMNT wrote: It's just sad that more content = more disinformation among the community, while it's supposed to create a more informed audience.
I think this is where you are wrong. These casts are first and foremost entertainment, nothing else. There are people who cast or have been casting "random" replays from the ladder of games they found exciting.
They are entertainment and disinformation. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
If you put out these casts you have a responsiblity to inform viewers. What if I find a series where JD beat Light 4-0 a year ago and advertise it right before they play each other in the Ro8 of the current ASL. I know full well what I'm doing and the consequences it could lead to.
I understand the argument, I just don't think there is that much of a responsibility case here. We are talking about watching Broodwar here. You make it sound like we are talking about current day politics and the responsibility of news anchors. Nobody is seriously going to be hurt here.
Depends on what you define hurt.
Say I'm a clueless viewer who watches these games which actually dated 6 months to 1 year ago, and think they were played recently, and gets my hope up for certain players, only to find out they are diabolical now because in BW form can change pretty quick. Or worse, people start calling some players mentally weak or something, because "just last week I saw him crushing in the SDS but today he choked in front of an offline audience".
Just on this board there are many JD fans who get their hope up every ASL. Expensive-Law-9830 probably one of them, hence he posted the results of JD 4-1 Snow thinking it was recently. In the comment they are all like "JD is on fire right now".
I wouldn't call it hurt. But there's clearly a negative impact here, just because the content creator doesn't want to reveal the dates of the games, presumably for their own economic gain.
Well, those people will lash on to anything to be fair. In other seasons people have chimed in saying something like "hey, I saw JD beat Light 5-0 yesterday on stream", which might not be wrong but also doesn't really mean much regarding the overall recent performance of either of the two. But people will use that information and spin it to what they want to believe anyways. That being said, I agree he (Saiyan) should reveal the date of the games. I just don't assume malicious intend based on speculation. To be fair, I didn't consider the economic gain as an incentive because his channel seems small. I'm not sure a few thousand views amount to enough ad revenue to make the hours invested (including acquisition of the replays, casting, post-processing, uploading) worthwhile in an economic sense.
I thought viewers knew those weren't recent games because of the map pool indeed. Never paid attention to the comments, but if Saiyan doesnt provide any informations about the timeline of those games and, on top of that, claiming that he doesnt know when asked... hes clearly misleading his viewers in order to get more views. His casting is already subpar so it would be cool if he could at least not hold any information.
On April 27 2025 02:38 Miragee wrote: Well, those people will lash on to anything to be fair. In other seasons people have chimed in saying something like "hey, I saw JD beat Light 5-0 yesterday on stream", which might not be wrong but also doesn't really mean much regarding the overall recent performance of either of the two. But people will use that information and spin it to what they want to believe anyways. That being said, I agree he (Saiyan) should reveal the date of the games. I just don't assume malicious intend based on speculation. To be fair, I didn't consider the economic gain as an incentive because his channel seems small. I'm not sure a few thousand views amount to enough ad revenue to make the hours invested (including acquisition of the replays, casting, post-processing, uploading) worthwhile in an economic sense.
No I don't think there's malice in it either, that's why I said it was sad, not bad.
As for the economic gain, it may not be right now, but as a youtuber/streamer you want your channel to grow. Ladder games from cwal were nice for a while but it seems too scattered, too random, and you rarely get big clashes on ladder. SDS is kind of the new gold mine for Saiyan and he has to mine effectively from it for his channel to grow. And the most effective way to do it requires being a little bit dishonest.
On April 27 2025 03:37 bochs wrote: Any ro8+ predictions? Here's mine:
Zero > Best Light > JD Snow > Rain SK > Rush
Light > Zero SK > Snow
SK > Light
This is the most likely outcome based on previous experiences. However, both Best and Rush have a chance to make it through as underdogs. My alternative universe bracket is:
Best > Zero Light > JD Snow > Rain Rush > SK
Light > Best Snow > Rush
Snow> Light
Of all the RO8 bracket upsets I find Rain beating Snow the less likely.
Starcast TV is not on today. Neither is JD or Light, What channel are you talking about?\
Never mind saw it. It's a premiere video (not a livestream, and definitely not live games) on SCTV KR Youtube. This series was of course played a long time ago (hence Minstrel is in the pool). Remember: if SCTV puts out free stuff for you to watch, whether in korean or english via Saiyan, it must be old.
Funny that in the comment section there are also Korean viewers complaining about not putting out a date of the games.
Starcast TV is not on today. Neither is JD or Light, What channel are you talking about?\
Never mind saw it. It's a premiere video (not a livestream, and definitely not live games) on SCTV KR Youtube. This series was of course played a long time ago (hence Minstrel is in the pool). Remember: if SCTV puts out free stuff for you to watch, whether in korean or english via Saiyan, it must be old.
Funny that in the comment section there are also Korean viewers complaining about not putting out a date of the games.
Man feels bad man...so much misinformation out there these days
if u want current information just go to eloboard, this is the current april ranking before tomorrow: 1.light 2.snow 3.zero 4.sk
6.rush 7.JD
10. Rain
13. Best
If you lurk around the player vs player stats it seems Light vs JD is a done deal - JD has less than 30% vs light lifetime(last 10 years) and in the last 20 games between them he has won just 5.
Starcast TV is not on today. Neither is JD or Light, What channel are you talking about?\
Never mind saw it. It's a premiere video (not a livestream, and definitely not live games) on SCTV KR Youtube. This series was of course played a long time ago (hence Minstrel is in the pool). Remember: if SCTV puts out free stuff for you to watch, whether in korean or english via Saiyan, it must be old.
Funny that in the comment section there are also Korean viewers complaining about not putting out a date of the games.
Man feels bad man...so much misinformation out there these days
On another note: JD 4-1 Snow. JD 4-0 Light. If he's maintained this form up until now (maybe he does).
Starcast TV is not on today. Neither is JD or Light, What channel are you talking about?\
Never mind saw it. It's a premiere video (not a livestream, and definitely not live games) on SCTV KR Youtube. This series was of course played a long time ago (hence Minstrel is in the pool). Remember: if SCTV puts out free stuff for you to watch, whether in korean or english via Saiyan, it must be old.
Funny that in the comment section there are also Korean viewers complaining about not putting out a date of the games.
Man feels bad man...so much misinformation out there these days
On another note: JD 4-1 Snow. JD 4-0 Light. If he's maintained this form up until now (maybe he does).
He has not sadly. Jaedong does well vs anyone not named kim minchul, lee jaeho or jang yoon chul. But then again, only jang yoon chul, lee jaeho and kim minchul do well vs kim minchul, lee jaeho and jang yoon chul. Flash does well vs Kim minchul though. Not vs Jang Yoon Chul. Lee Jaeho has had ups and down but is back in top shape it appears.
On April 28 2025 00:55 bochs wrote: But Kim Minchul is doing everything he can to avoid ZvZ haha, especially Kim Myungwoon and Lee Jaedong.
I think kim minchul wont have to play either of them. But there is a super small chance Kim Myungwoon will beat Do Jaewook and Lee Jaeho and get to finals where he could maybe beat Kim Minchul. But the chances are super small. Also Yoo Young Jin has decent odds vs Kim Minchul. There is a realistic chance Kim Minchul wont make it. Small, but it exists.
there is a super small chance Kim Myungwoon will beat Do Jaewook and Lee Jaeho and get to finals where he could maybe beat Kim Minchul. But the chances are super small.
Based on his recent shape, I'm afraid the chances are not small, maybe as big as 20%.
Allso Yoo Young Jin has decent odds vs Kim Minchul.
I'm rooting for Minchul, so don't want to jinx it, but as long as Youngjin plays predictable style which he is known for, I don't really see how he can win in a bo7 series. Minchul fairs worse against unpredictable Terrans, like Lee Youngho and Kim Jisung in his top form.
And I think jang yoon chul has a better chance to stop Minchul than Youngjin. I have an impression that yoonchul is leading in his recent matches against Minchul.
I think it's a bit implausible that the other four players each have less than <0.5% to win.
I know, i liquipedia’ed it, but seriously calling players by their names is just the summit of elitism. What’s that for? Just looking cool to the 80% of people who don’t know what their names are. Everyone knows who Light is, I have watched SC for 16 years i had to check who was Jaeho. Ffs.
I think it's a bit implausible that the other four players each have less than <0.5% to win.
I know, i liquipedia’ed it, but seriously calling players by their names is just the summit of elitism. What’s that for? Just looking cool to the 80% of people who don’t know what their names are. Everyone knows who Light is, I have watched SC for 16 years i had to check who was Jaeho. Ffs.
I think it's a bit implausible that the other four players each have less than <0.5% to win.
I know, i liquipedia’ed it, but seriously calling players by their names is just the summit of elitism. What’s that for? Just looking cool to the 80% of people who don’t know what their names are. Everyone knows who Light is, I have watched SC for 16 years i had to check who was Jaeho. Ffs.
There's a level in between lol. That is when you use their Korean nicknames which they actually use a lot. It's something like this: 쭉 - Snow 얌 - Rush 점 - Shuttle (he's so associated with this nickname in Korean, nobody cares what "Shuttle" is) 도맨 - Best (this is one of the easier ones) 북 - Light 뷱 - Soulkey 곰 - Hero 룡 or 택 - Bisu 매 - Effort 부황 - Rain (I believe this one literally means Protoss emperor) 김치맨 - Royal (they're literally calling him Kimchi Man or sometimes Kimchi Boy lol) 짭제 - Soma (nobody ever calls him by Soma or even his real name in Korean)
On April 29 2025 23:38 TMNT wrote: There's a level in between lol. That is when you use their Korean nicknames which they actually use a lot. It's something like this: 쭉 - Snow 얌 - Rush 점 - Shuttle (he's so associated with this nickname in Korean, nobody cares what "Shuttle" is) 도맨 - Best (this is one of the easier ones) 북 - Light 뷱 - Soulkey 곰 - Hero 룡 or 택 - Bisu 매 - Effort 부황 - Rain (I believe this one literally means Protoss emperor) 김치맨 - Royal (they're literally calling him Kimchi Man or sometimes Kimchi Boy lol) 짭제 - Soma (nobody ever calls him by Soma or even his real name in Korean)
there're more that I can't remember for now.
to translate these for the non korean reading peasantry! jjuk jam jum doman/do jae buk byuk gom ryong or taek Mae puhuang/pwang Kimjiman jjabjae(dong)
On April 29 2025 23:38 TMNT wrote: There's a level in between lol. That is when you use their Korean nicknames which they actually use a lot. It's something like this: 쭉 - Snow 얌 - Rush 점 - Shuttle (he's so associated with this nickname in Korean, nobody cares what "Shuttle" is) 도맨 - Best (this is one of the easier ones) 북 - Light 뷱 - Soulkey 곰 - Hero 룡 or 택 - Bisu 매 - Effort 부황 - Rain (I believe this one literally means Protoss emperor) 김치맨 - Royal (they're literally calling him Kimchi Man or sometimes Kimchi Boy lol) 짭제 - Soma (nobody ever calls him by Soma or even his real name in Korean)
there're more that I can't remember for now.
to translate these for the non korean reading peasantry! jjuk jam jum doman/do jae buk byuk gom ryong or taek Mae puhuang/pwang Kimjiman jjabjae(dong)
On April 29 2025 23:38 TMNT wrote: There's a level in between lol. That is when you use their Korean nicknames which they actually use a lot. It's something like this: 쭉 - Snow 얌 - Rush 점 - Shuttle (he's so associated with this nickname in Korean, nobody cares what "Shuttle" is) 도맨 - Best (this is one of the easier ones) 북 - Light 뷱 - Soulkey 곰 - Hero 룡 or 택 - Bisu 매 - Effort 부황 - Rain (I believe this one literally means Protoss emperor) 김치맨 - Royal (they're literally calling him Kimchi Man or sometimes Kimchi Boy lol) 짭제 - Soma (nobody ever calls him by Soma or even his real name in Korean)
there're more that I can't remember for now.
to translate these for the non korean reading peasantry! jjuk jam jum doman/do jae buk byuk gom ryong or taek Mae puhuang/pwang Kimjiman jjabjae(dong)
Rush is yam. In fact jam is Movie lol.
oopsie. yeah Yam. You write it the same iirc. or is it written differently?
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/DjTPS9x.png)
Good one , Nirli !!
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