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Interview with Mapmaker of Neo-Sylphid & Eclipse

Forum Index > BW General
31 CommentsPost a Reply
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ox.tQ
Profile Joined November 2010
794 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-03 18:42:07
May 02 2021 17:32 GMT
#1
Hello there!

I want to begin by thanking you for checking out this thread. I hope you find it interesting and worthwhile reading!

Allow me to introduce you to LatiAs - the Korean ASL map maker who created the two beloved maps: Neo-Sylphid and Eclipse!

I conducted an interview with LatiAs about his experience as a professional map maker and would like to share the transcript with you. Let's get right into it!

(Q)uestion: Beginnings are important. So tell us, why did you initially get into map making when most SC lovers never do?

LatiAs: At first, I became interested in map making when I saw a progamer show a great strategy using the features in the map 'Monty Hall'. After that, I worked hard to create an official map that pros could use, until ASL started. Even now, just like my map Sylphid, I make maps for ASL that I think are loved by many people.

Q: You mentioned Neo-Sylphid, your first successful map. Can you tell us about the process involved in making it?

LatiAs: Sylphid was produced in 2015, and took about a week. I was mapping maybe 5 days or a week before its creation. Since then, whenever I think of it, I have modified it every few months. Since there was no ASL at the time, it was simply one of the maps released to the community. It was later submitted to ASL S5 Map Contest, and that's why the first version of ASL Sylphid was 1.6 instead of 0.9 (beta). After several tests, many parts have been modified and it used since ASL S6.

Q: You also made another successful map called Eclipse. Can you tell us about the process involved in making that?

LatiAs: Eclipse was very improvised. It was produced the day before the final of the ASL S9(April 26th, 2020). So the production period is maybe only a day or two. After that, it became a candidate map for ASL S10, and after several tests, it became the official version. I will upload gif files that simply show the process I made and edited Neo-Sylphid and Eclipse.

Neo-Sylphid's illustrated development
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Eclipse's illustrated development
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Q: Do you have a favourite progamer match on Neo-Sylphid and Eclipse that you enjoyed watching a lot?

LatiAs: Neo Sylphid - Rain vs Last (ASL S7 semi final) & Eclipse - Soulkey vs Snow (ASL S10 Ro.24)

Q: I heard a lot of foreigners complain about Neo-Sylphid being removed from the current ladder pool after being featured in ladder pool seasons 5, 6 and 7. How did you feel about it being removed and replaced with less popular or preferred maps?

LatiAs: As a map maker, it is sad. However I agree that the ladder pool needs to be constantly updated. I've always opposed FS and CB being fixed in the ladder pool, so I shouldn't talk the opposite about Sylphid.

Q: How do ASL map makers go about testing or revising their maps? Could you elaborate about that as much as possible please?

When creating an ASL official map, feedback from progamers is received, but of course not all comments are accepted. We don't care as much about the public’s response, but the ASL map makers actively exchange opinions.

Most of the corrections are judged by the map makers directly observing the game of progamers through broadcasting. Because most of gamers tend to talk only about the disadvantages of their own race. This didn't look good to viewers, and there were a lot of offensive opinions about the pros in the Korean community. So these days, pros are reluctant to give public feedback. It's unfortunate.

We accept serious feedback that is not related to balance (such as bugs). But for other balance related feedbacks, we compare our observations and modify the map by at the discretion of each map makers. So these days, I think the ability of the map maker is the most important for correction the balance of map.

Example, with purely my own thoughts, I delete mineral-only in the early version of Eclipse, because Terran mecha took too much advantage from that location. So I believe the balance of TvP has been properly adjusted because of this modification.

I thought that Neo Sylphid and Eclipse are the best maps I have ever made, and that they're fine compared to other people's maps. I'm just happy that I've gotten the opportunity of ASL that many people haven't received. This may be lucky, but I think I got a chance because I was passionate about map making, even when many Korean map makers gave up on BW before the start of ASL.

Q: Can you tell us about your newest map?

LatiAs: I recently made ASL map Ascension because I thought it was a great idea to make the concept of Blue Storm into a map for three or more players. When I asked EarthAttack if I could remake his map, he gladly accepted it. Considering the limited size of 128x128 and the size of Blue Storm's hill, I concluded that a 3player map is the most suitable size. The concept of the narrow road changed because of position balance, but I am satisfied that it seems that the remake was done properly.

Q: Are there any maps that you made in the past that you still want to get accepted into ASL? For example, any of your following maps: Leningrad, Viper, Neo Noah's Ark, Oh Jang Won, Rendezvous, Neo Aiolos, Largo, Salamander, Battle of Gwando, etc?

LatiAs: Rendezvous. It is a UMS map using triggers with doors that open and close periodically. Of course it is not easy to use maps that are not available in melee in League. But melee's features have reached their limits, and I think we need a new experience. I want Blizzard to add as many new elements as possible in melee like SC2, such as Xel’Naga Watch Tower, entrances that change in size, and areas where air units cannot move.

Q: Do you know how Blizzard selects ladder pool maps? Does ASL maps influence ladder map pool at all? Can you share any information about relationship between ladder and ASL map pool selection?

LatiAs: What I know is that Blizzard has decided to use the entire ASL map as a ladder map pool after end of KSL. It seems that there is a high possibility that it will no longer put a new map on their own. I think it was the result of the dissolution of the BW/SC2 team, but it's hard to guess.

Q: How long do you typically spend developing one map? Is there a method or process that you have for starting a new map?

LatiAs: I usually have two ways. One is to design the shape of the terrain before creating the map, and the other is to create some terrain somehow and fill in the appropriate elements left.

In the former case, examples are Ascension, Aiolos, and Largo, and the latter are Sylphid, Demian, and Camelot. Eclipse is a mix of the two.

If map is already designed, the creation of the terrain itself does not take long. I can complete it in 1 day if it is short and 2 to 3 days if it is long.

Q: Do you have any opinion to share regarding the differences between 2 player, 3 player and 4 player maps?

LatiAs: The balance formula is different for each number of people. In detail, I will not write it here because it is too complicated.

Maps are square, so you need to be very careful when making a 3 player map.

I like 3-player maps the most, but it's hard to say that it is a good map because of the differences in each location. It is the map maker's ability to minimize that difference.

Q: Do you have tileset preferences? Any tilesets you think are best or bad?

LatiAs: Like most map makers, I am comfortable with jungle tilesets. In my opinion, the tileset that best reveals the creator's ability to decorate the terrain is Twilight. Ice and Ash are not used well in league maps due to visibility issues. (Players don't like it.) So they're tilesets that I don't use very well, and I really admire the people who handle their terrain well.

Q: Do you have any advice for new map makers?

LatiAs: Studying other people's maps a lot is most important. I first saw foreigners' maps on BroodWarMaps.Net when I was not good at making maps 8 to 9 years ago. I learned how to decorate the terrain, which was very different from the Korean community, and it made great progress by combining it with my own ways. Do not simply use excessive features such as neutral buildings and neutral units. If you want to use these features, consider whether they are essential to your map. Play on your map. The map shown in the editor and shown in the in-game are quite different.

Q: Do you have any advice for map makers who want to create a standard map that is loved by players like Neo-Sylphid and Eclipse?

LatiAs: Arranging resources and paths is of most important. Resources shouldn't be too crowded or spread out, and paths shouldn't be too complex. Especially focus on the relationship between nat and 3rd base.

Q: Any advice for foreign map makers who wish to have their maps in ASL?

LatiAs: Unlike KeSPA, ASL maps have close communication between players, map makers, and tournament officials. It would be nice if you could freely exchange opinions with us. I think that foreign map makers are also great.

Q: Do you feel watching progamer games is very important for map making in Korea?

LatiAs: If the map makers don't watch the match, they won’t know what needs to be fixed. Also, in pro-level games, the trend changes quite often, and it can be different from the common knowledge of balance as we know it. This can be understood by the map makers only by watching matches. So yes, it is VERY important.

Q: Do you think there is a big difference between creating maps for ASL (Korean progamers) and creating a map for foreign players?

LatiAs: Many foreign map makers already have the skills necessary to adjust the balance. What matters is how to use it in what proportion. Even I can't get a good balance as soon as I create a map. The detailed opinions of the top players are very helpful in modifying the map.

Q: In Korea, are map makers known by players and viewers? Because in the foreign community, most players and viewers do not know (or sometimes even care about the) names of the creators of maps.

LatiAs: In my case, because I was active in the community, more people know about my map and my name than I thought. But in most cases it is similar to what you said.

Q: Who are your favorite map makers from the past or present?

LatiAs: Achernar. He is not an official map maker, but he is a legend in the Korean map community. Because intothemap.com is gone, we can't easily find Achernar (or other people's) maps anymore sadly. But I have some images of Achernar's maps. I'll give you some. I think these maps were made between 2008~2011 (except Leviathan), I'm not sure... I didn't know about making maps at that time

(2)Lauterbrunnen_2.0
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


(3)Galaxy_0.93 (LatiAs's favourite map by Achernar)
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


(4)Crux_0.86
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


(4)Achernar II_2.0
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


(4)Leviathan_0.80
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Before SC:R, you can find that many Korean amateur map makers used right style ramps, not left (basic style).
Because they are made by Achernar, so we call them "Achernar Style Ramps".

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


You can find them on Sylphid too lol

Q: Anything you can say about the Korean map making community in terms of its size or activeness?

LatiAs: Currently, there is no active community only for map makers in Korea (except for UMS maps). I see the BW community (Ygosu), but I rarely do community activities these days. It doesn't seem that there are more people making maps than before. Map Contest also does not happen much. However, ASL map makers are talking and cooperating with each other very much.

Q: Do you or Korean map makers have any opinion about foreign map makers?

LatiAs: The maps of foreigners seem to be somewhat weak in balance issues because it is not easy to access the opinion of the Korean progamer. Conversely, I think they are very creative. They make an attempt that I can't often do with my anxiety, so I have often been impressed with their ideas.

Q: Do you play Starcraft much? If so, what is your race and MMR?

LatiAs: I played a lot in the past, but nowadays I only enjoy it occasionally. My races are Terran and Protoss, and my best MMR is 2100, A rank.

Q: How much progamer content do you watch?

LatiAs: When I edit the map, I watch almost every match on my map. I also see matches on the other map makers' maps and give them feedback. Usually, I only watch important games or watch some games on YouTube.

Q: May I ask your age? You mentioned to me once that you were still in school, yes?

LatiAs: I am 25 years old. At the age of 20, I entered the university's School of Mechanical Engineering. I am currently in the third grade after taking a 2.5 year leave of absence due to the mandatory military service of a Korean man.

Q: How long do you plan to continue map making?

LatiAs: As long as the StarLeague lasts, I think I will continue to make maps.

On behalf of BroodWarMaps.Net, I want to thank you LatiAs for your time my friend. This was a real treat for us.

For anyone interested, other maps that LatiAs has designed and shared with the public can be accessed HERE
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Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4126 Posts
May 02 2021 04:33 GMT
#2
This is so cool, thanks for sharing!
sTYleZerG-eX
Profile Joined January 2010
Mexico473 Posts
May 02 2021 04:49 GMT
#3
Good interview cheers!
10%
MineraIs
Profile Joined September 2020
United States846 Posts
May 02 2021 04:53 GMT
#4
I wish there was a connection between foreign and Korean map makers. We seem to know nothing about the Korean scene while BWMN on the other hand is an open public platform.
This is a great perspective, thanks ox!
✯ [ twitch.tv/MrMineraIs ] ✯ [ Check out my Maps: https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/612442-official-maps-by-minerals ] ✯
thislooksgreat1
Profile Joined January 2020
59 Posts
May 02 2021 05:02 GMT
#5
Nice interview!
don_kyuhote
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
3006 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-02 21:38:00
May 02 2021 05:20 GMT
#6
Thanks for sharing.
Wow, only 25 years old
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
May 02 2021 05:25 GMT
#7
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
May 02 2021 06:09 GMT
#8
Really nice to see the process (gifs).
-.-
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4175 Posts
May 02 2021 06:22 GMT
#9
this is superb! thank you for sharing
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
aokces
Profile Joined October 2006
United States309 Posts
May 02 2021 07:48 GMT
#10
That Galaxy map is beautiful! Where can I find it to download?
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-02 11:09:10
May 02 2021 11:06 GMT
#11
Great interview. You can see how much thought he puts into his maps by how he talks about the process. And the results show.

Shoutout to Achernar. What an absolute legend. Leviathan is genius. (a modern take on it would very much be appreciated)
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6550 Posts
May 02 2021 11:15 GMT
#12
He is 2100 mmr in Korea server and also talk with progamers and watch games.Take notes foreign map makers. LATHIAS your map sylphid is the by far the best created in recent times.Is a shame it was removed from ladder.Im not a big fan of eclipse tho. my zvp win rate in that map is like 15%
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-02 11:36:29
May 02 2021 11:32 GMT
#13
On May 02 2021 16:48 aokces wrote:
That Galaxy map is beautiful! Where can I find it to download?

could only find crux and leviathan, appreciate if someone knows how to get the others already tried https://cafe.naver.com/edac/72043

Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-02 13:51:30
May 02 2021 13:05 GMT
#14
On May 02 2021 20:06 oxKnu wrote:
Great interview. You can see how much thought he puts into his maps by how he talks about the process. And the results show.

Shoutout to Achernar. What an absolute legend. Leviathan is genius. (a modern take on it would very much be appreciated)
It is a modern map, it uses remastered ramps.

On May 02 2021 20:32 ggsimida wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 16:48 aokces wrote:
That Galaxy map is beautiful! Where can I find it to download?

could only find crux and leviathan, appreciate if someone knows how to get the others already tried https://cafe.naver.com/edac/72043
If you read the interview you'd know that most of them were hosted on intothemap.com, which used to be the biggest Korean map database/community site, but went defunct shortly after the release of SC2 and the alleged end of the BW scene. All the maps (well, not technically every single one of them, if you find this fine distinction important, but a database containing probably thousands nontheless) were lost to the public.
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.

On May 02 2021 20:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
He is 2100 mmr in Korea server and also talk with progamers and watch games.Take notes foreign map makers. LATHIAS your map sylphid is the by far the best created in recent times.Is a shame it was removed from ladder.Im not a big fan of eclipse tho. my zvp win rate in that map is like 15%
Learn Korean. Noted.
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
May 02 2021 13:12 GMT
#15
On May 02 2021 20:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
He is 2100 mmr in Korea server and also talk with progamers and watch games.Take notes foreign map makers. LATHIAS your map sylphid is the by far the best created in recent times.Is a shame it was removed from ladder.Im not a big fan of eclipse tho. my zvp win rate in that map is like 15%

I suppose it's still bigger than on rest of maps, eon. Right?
TL+ Member
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
May 02 2021 13:15 GMT
#16
On May 02 2021 22:05 Freakling wrote:
]If you read the interview you'd know that most of them were hosted on intothemap.com, which used to be the biggest Korean map database/community site, but went defunct shortly after the release of SC2 and the alleged end of the BW scene. All the maps were lost to the public.
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.


you could also read my post which explicitly stated that i found crux and leviathan so "All the maps were lost to the public." is factually false.
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
May 02 2021 13:26 GMT
#17
On May 02 2021 22:15 ggsimida wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 22:05 Freakling wrote:
]If you read the interview you'd know that most of them were hosted on intothemap.com, which used to be the biggest Korean map database/community site, but went defunct shortly after the release of SC2 and the alleged end of the BW scene. All the maps were lost to the public.
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.


you could also read my post which explicitly stated that i found crux and leviathan so "All the maps were lost to the public." is factually false.
And as I stated at least the latter cannot possibly be older than ~2 years, it's reasonable to assume that the other one is relatively recent as well (Naver post dated to 2018), so obviously they were never part of the Intothemap database to begin with.
ggsimida
Profile Joined August 2015
1148 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-02 13:32:28
May 02 2021 13:32 GMT
#18
On May 02 2021 22:26 Freakling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 22:15 ggsimida wrote:
On May 02 2021 22:05 Freakling wrote:
]If you read the interview you'd know that most of them were hosted on intothemap.com, which used to be the biggest Korean map database/community site, but went defunct shortly after the release of SC2 and the alleged end of the BW scene. All the maps were lost to the public.
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.


you could also read my post which explicitly stated that i found crux and leviathan so "All the maps were lost to the public." is factually false.
And as I stated at least the latter cannot possibly be older than ~2 years, it's reasonable to assume that the other one is relatively recent as well (Naver post dated to 2018), so obviously they were never part of the Intothemap database to begin with.


the guy who posted crux says he found it in his old BW download folder
oxKnu
Profile Joined December 2017
1179 Posts
May 02 2021 13:40 GMT
#19
Likely that some of those maps (in some form or the other) were distributed into older map packs that were spread around via file hosting before the discord era.
M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4175 Posts
May 02 2021 13:48 GMT
#20
On May 02 2021 22:05 Freakling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 20:06 oxKnu wrote:
Great interview. You can see how much thought he puts into his maps by how he talks about the process. And the results show.

Shoutout to Achernar. What an absolute legend. Leviathan is genius. (a modern take on it would very much be appreciated)
It is a modern map, it uses remastered ramps.

Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 20:32 ggsimida wrote:
On May 02 2021 16:48 aokces wrote:
That Galaxy map is beautiful! Where can I find it to download?

could only find crux and leviathan, appreciate if someone knows how to get the others already tried https://cafe.naver.com/edac/72043
If you read the interview you'd know that most of them were hosted on intothemap.com, which used to be the biggest Korean map database/community site, but went defunct shortly after the release of SC2 and the alleged end of the BW scene. All the maps were lost to the public.
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.

Show nested quote +
On May 02 2021 20:15 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
He is 2100 mmr in Korea server and also talk with progamers and watch games.Take notes foreign map makers. LATHIAS your map sylphid is the by far the best created in recent times.Is a shame it was removed from ladder.Im not a big fan of eclipse tho. my zvp win rate in that map is like 15%
Learn Korean. Noted.

Need some kind of medium between foreign and korean scenes.. idk whocould that be though.
odi profanum vulgus et arceo
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
May 02 2021 17:50 GMT
#21
Great interview. Thanks for sharing.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
AleXoundOS
Profile Joined January 2011
Georgia457 Posts
May 02 2021 19:20 GMT
#22
On May 02 2021 22:05 Freakling wrote:
If LatiAs or any other Korean map makers (or players/fans, but maps are mostly downloaded by other map makers) still have some map files it would certainly be a good idea to upload them to BWMN, for example, or at least share them via file hosting.

Maybe upload here: https://repmastered.app/maps.
https://bwapi.github.io - An API for interacting with Starcraft: Broodwar (1.16.1)
PVJ
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Hungary5214 Posts
May 02 2021 22:23 GMT
#23
Thank you for doing this interview!
The heart's eternal vow
JungleTerrain
Profile Joined January 2012
Chile799 Posts
May 02 2021 23:48 GMT
#24
Ha, I remember 10+ years ago going on Intothemap and taking a look at maps there. I feel like I had seen some of these maps by Achernar or at least maps that look very similar. I was so sad when the site went down But it's funny to know that Korean mapmakers (or at the very least Latias) were looking at Bwmn back then.

I would say one of my biggest failures as a mapmaker is not taking the time to look at EVERY match that happens on my maps and learning from it. There's been many times where I just make a map and I just don't care (usually because of reasons outside of BW) or when I do care I don't know when/where my maps are being used. I'll definitely try to do this more going forward...

Great interview.

My one question is: how come Achernar's maps never made it into any sort of league or anything if he was considered a "legend"? Or is that just from hindsight?
www.broodwarmaps.net
Freakling
Profile Joined October 2012
Germany1529 Posts
May 03 2021 00:54 GMT
#25
On May 03 2021 08:48 JungleTerrain wrote:
Ha, I remember 10+ years ago going on Intothemap and taking a look at maps there. I feel like I had seen some of these maps by Achernar or at least maps that look very similar. I was so sad when the site went down But it's funny to know that Korean mapmakers (or at the very least Latias) were looking at Bwmn back then.

I would say one of my biggest failures as a mapmaker is not taking the time to look at EVERY match that happens on my maps and learning from it. There's been many times where I just make a map and I just don't care (usually because of reasons outside of BW) or when I do care I don't know when/where my maps are being used. I'll definitely try to do this more going forward...

Great interview.

My one question is: how come Achernar's maps never made it into any sort of league or anything if he was considered a "legend"? Or is that just from hindsight?

Because Kespa map making was mostly a closed system, I guess.
Furthermore a problem with most Korean maps and map makers, back then and even today, and I would also argue even more than in the foreign scene, actually, is that they are maps made for map makers, not for players to a high degree. Look at the example maps posted in the OP and you can clearly observe for each of them how they are more representations of abstract concepts rather than meant to be serious attempts to make a map that is actually balanced and plays well.
True_Spike
Profile Joined July 2004
Poland3418 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-03 08:07:32
May 03 2021 08:07 GMT
#26
That's very interesting, thank you for the insight into the korean map making scene!
fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium3999 Posts
May 03 2021 10:01 GMT
#27
Amazing interview
The Galaxy map by Achernar is an absolute masterpiece too. Wowza.
Drone is a way of living
thedeadhaji *
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
39489 Posts
May 03 2021 10:31 GMT
#28
Great interview. Thanks for making it happen!
Kinky
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States4126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-05-03 14:17:22
May 03 2021 14:15 GMT
#29
The gifs of the map creation process are fascinating. Here are the webm's for anyone who wants to pause them like me
Neo-sylphid
Eclipse
RandomPlayer
Profile Joined April 2012
Russian Federation390 Posts
May 03 2021 15:10 GMT
#30
Only came to read because I thought it was "maphacker"..
Szinkler
Profile Joined July 2018
Hungary394 Posts
May 03 2021 19:46 GMT
#31
Really nice interview, thank you!
mtcn77
Profile Joined September 2013
Turkey319 Posts
October 23 2021 08:14 GMT
#32
Thanks for the interview. I wish him best of luck. Neo Sylphid, ftw!
Turrican
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