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Norway28848 Posts
On January 15 2021 23:25 Sadistx wrote:
Talent can also be described as luck.
If you think about all the things that go into skill, other than hard work, all of them will be things that are outside of your control, and thus influenced mostly through luck.
1. Where you are born and to whom (genetic intelligence/ability)
2. How you are raised (attentive parents, passion for knowledge and work ethic)
3. Positive influences by people who are not your parents, positive experiences in general (e.g. actually winning games right away and not getting crushed 20 times in a row when you start playing), safe place to learn and improve.
Isn't the degree to which you can work hard gonna be influenced by your work ethic which is also luck-based?
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On January 16 2021 01:36 Rus_Brain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2021 07:19 AttackZerg wrote:
The esport.fund is funding Flashes team?
Been under a rock, I guess. That is a tremendous thing to hear.
Great video, thank you Jinjin.
I will be pretty much thankful, should you help me doing good things by sharing few bucks to the fund.
You got it!
edit - Done!
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I've always thought of any skill as a thing where a person may have a slight innate affinity for something, but at a level of mastery, the effect of that is just a drop in the ocean. What matters is how hard/much you work, building up experience, and how efficiently you do it. That's why it's not a simple question of "whoever works more is better", but the way you work is also important. That's why some people improve faster than others, they are able to get more out of the same hours put in, and that in itself is a skillset which can be trained as well.
Personally, I've found that getting to a state of mind where you are constantly analyzing your performance on a mental level, helps in faster growth a lot. An example I like to use for gaming is the following (less applicable for other games, more for some): If you use a specific strat/playstyle and you're not succeeding are you:
a) Going to repeat the same thing
b) Trying something else
c) Trying to identify the issue
Those who repeat the same thing, are unlikely to succeed. Those who try something else, may succeed or may fail even worse. Those who work out what the actual problem was, are the most likely to find success. If your strategy is losing, you cannot win the game without changing it. Can you successfully transition before the game is over, or are you straight-up forfeiting the map with inability to adjust? The issue can be just not pressing buttons well enough, but it can also be a simple "what the opponent is doing generally counters what I'm doing", making your strategy inefficient. In that case, you can either tweak the approach to take account the weakness and try to mitigate it, or see if you can change into a more efficient strategy and carry it through.
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FlaSh dropping some truth bombs, amazing! More and more I watch your videos jinjin more I'm leaning towards learning korean.
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No doubt he works hard but it is absurd to think talent plays no role. This goes for everything. Not like he could switch to basketball and become the next Lebron or Lebron could switch to Brood War and become the next flash.
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Northern Ireland27126 Posts
I would assume there are hard gates at both the low end and the world class level in terms of some innate aptitude at something. Hard work can basically do the job for anything in between the extremes.
By want of recourse to another area, music, some people are just outright tone deaf. I played a fuckton of guitar and really developed a musical ear, can write music (not very well), a few other instruments passably. I’d be staunchly in the middle group, most of my ability comes from the grind and the passion, you pick up a lot even subconsciously just by throwing yourself in. We’ve all met people who really enthusiastically join in the bar singalong and you don’t want to burst their bubble but they’re missing almost every note. Not because of their vocal range (mine is pretty limited!), but because they just don’t actually parse what is in key and what isn’t. You see this a fair bit in talent show auditions on TV.
I don’t think if these people ground 24/7 they’d be as ‘talented’ as me, they’re just lacking a crucial component. At the other end of the scale, hanging around musicians some of those folks have abilities I couldn’t grind out, for example the rare specimen who possesses perfect pitch.
I’d imagine the Starcraft continuum is vaguely similar. I’d say a limited amount of folks would be a C rank or a Plat player in SC2 even if they were paid to do it full time. A solid chunk of us could be an S rank player if we had optimal conditions to grind full time. Then there’s that level above that can do it with relative ease and it’s that level you need to be at to even countenance taking a shot at being a pro.
Then amongst really talented, hard-working pros there’s still some X factor, as the skill floor gets higher and higher those margins are tiny, but still hugely impactful. And that is talent, or a genetic natural aptitude or whatever you want to call it. You’ve filtered for the best of the best, they all work pretty damn hard and still there are gaps.
In absolute terms, Roger Federer isn’t that much better than most top 100 tennis players, especially if we plotted it on some graph including everyone who picked up a tennis racquet. But he’s got that little extra something that makes him a GOAT candidate vs being a solid tennis pro. Whatever that is, Flash has it in BW.
As a silly aside there’s probably a lot that many of us could be the best in the world at, but it doesn’t appeal or we never get exposed to it. For all I know my genetics could see me having the potential to be the best juggler in the world, but I never knew!
I feel Flash is one of those rare folks who out of all the hobbies and jobs open to us humans is actually doing the one he is best at.
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Talent is the ability to work extremely hard while not seeming to.
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I wish he said a few words about the talent of Fantasy.
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On January 16 2021 04:35 Cephiro wrote:
I've always thought of any skill as a thing where a person may have a slight innate affinity for something, but at a level of mastery, the effect of that is just a drop in the ocean. What matters is how hard/much you work, building up experience, and how efficiently you do it. That's why it's not a simple question of "whoever works more is better", but the way you work is also important. That's why some people improve faster than others, they are able to get more out of the same hours put in, and that in itself is a skillset which can be trained as
It’s interesting how you immediately dismiss “having an affinity for something” right at the beginning like its a minor thing, and then go on to count things like “building up experience” and efficiency as if they matter more. I’m borderline OCD about efficiency but would always favor passion more. Because without passion what is driving the work? It’s a natural prerequisite to greatness.
That said.. as someone who's recovering from an extremist sense of efficiency (and by extension perfectionism), I’m bound to think a certain group should heed your advice... if you have the passion and also lack a proper mindset for efficiency then you’re going to waste a significant amount of time reaching the potential you’re destined for.
I work in the field of music where this is as rampant as ever. Most people who join the field glorify the art beyond reason and make it their life’s journey to recreate the wheel to write a single great song (if they’re lucky), instead of just learning from those before us, adding our own twist and creating an entire collection of great songs that a new generation of people can love. Is that not good enough?
Inefficiency comes in all shapes and forms, but it always stems from mindsets that we chose to have. So choose to be wise at something and then go figure out how to be wise as it.
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On January 16 2021 10:57 zimp wrote:
I wish he said a few words about the talent of Fantasy.
next video im translating will be exactly that.
won the vote in the strawpoll in discord lol
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On January 16 2021 10:45 kaspa84 wrote:
Talent is the ability to work extremely hard while not seeming to.
Best post in this thread by far.
People that work hard with seemingly no issues are the ones that succeed the most.
Happens in sports/engineering/business etc.
Be it that they have insane competitive drive/thirst for money/unreal passion for what they do.
The formula is actually quite simple:
You will be successful at something(way above the mean) if:
- time is not a constraint
- rate of improvement is steadily linear
- you are naturally not distracted by anything else
So in other words, the people that are by default positively obsessed with something will get exceptionally good at it.
I imagine 95% of people fail at most of the above (distractions, they value social norms more, failure to accommodate their life to their passion, inability to isolate stress, too dependent on external validation).
That's why that same percentage of people end up getting old in safe, 9-5 dead-end jobs.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
On January 16 2021 19:36 jinjin5000 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2021 10:57 zimp wrote:
I wish he said a few words about the talent of Fantasy. next video im translating will be exactly that. won the vote in the strawpoll in discord lol
Well damn now I can't wait. Thanks for translating all this stuff for us jinjin.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
I thought about it a lot. And i came up with that there’s no such thing as talent at all. What people call talent is a simple joy of doing what are you doing and making fun.
To sum it up:
Talent = passion + joy + fun
And the final formula:
how fast your skill will grow = time spent * talent * mental/physical health.
Everyone can do anything at super high level, but most of us losing fun on the road
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Netherlands5634 Posts
Interesting thread.
Some things in life come easy. Some are earned and some are indeed gifted. However to succeed in anything professionally competitive you need to be able to work hard but also efficient, strategic. The latter being even more important as bad practice but hard work can actually make worse...
Something I don't really see people touch upon (sorry if I missed it) is the value of having a good mentor:
Good coaches/teachers can present in a way and hand you certain tools that make it easier and thus more fun (or vice versa) to achieve a higher level.
If you aren't able to work hard, no talent nor tutoring is going to save you in a competitive scene. It's totally understandable a gifted pro like Flash wants his hard work praised, but I'm glad that Flash seems to have started to accept that just hard work won't cut it. I'll always remember around 2008-2009 where Flash got really upset when people kept saying he is talented in a fomos/des interview. (I'll try to dig up and link said interview later).
I'm quite curious what Flash will say about Fantasy, who I always kinda deemed to be uncle oov's puppet. I have always wondered if Fantasy have been better off or worse without iloveoov back in the day and how it affected him when people, (yes, like myself), attributed his win (or loss) to oov's coaching rather than his own hard work. Has Fantasy ever talked about that? Thanks for the translations!
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On January 16 2021 23:37 Peeano wrote:
Interesting thread.
Something I don't really see people touch upon (sorry if I missed it) is the value of having a good mentor:
Good coaches/teachers can present in a way and hand you certain tools that make it easier and thus more fun (or vice versa) to achieve a higher level.
..because it's less relevant today in the era of open information and endless possibilities towards accumulation/aggregation of knowledge.
Sure there are psychological aspects to having a mentor figure but let's be honest, if you have the drive you can find out a lot of things today from your chair in your pajamas.
In other words the system has been simplified to just the capabilities of the individual to achieve mastery.
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On January 16 2021 23:54 oxKnu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2021 23:37 Peeano wrote:
Interesting thread.
Something I don't really see people touch upon (sorry if I missed it) is the value of having a good mentor:
Good coaches/teachers can present in a way and hand you certain tools that make it easier and thus more fun (or vice versa) to achieve a higher level.
..because it's less relevant today in the era of open information and endless possibilities towards accumulation/aggregation of knowledge. Sure there are psychological aspects to having a mentor figure but let's be honest, if you have the drive you can find out a lot of things today from your chair in your pajamas. In other words the system has been simplified to just the capabilities of the individual to achieve mastery.
I think you are significantly underrating the ability of a mentor to highlight important aspects of a subject and save time.
eg if I tell you to find something in a 1000 page book, that might take you a while, but a mentor who knows the book can go say "hey that's in chapter 2".
Just having access to knowledge does not mean you can utilize it quickly, and maybe more importantly verify its accuracy and scope. If you've ever done any research in an academic environment you will quickly recognize how difficult it is to find the words or context of something even if you know what you are looking for.
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On January 16 2021 22:33 iFU.spx wrote:
I thought about it a lot. And i came up with that there’s no such thing as talent at all. What people call talent is a simple joy of doing what are you doing and making fun.
To sum it up:
Talent = passion + joy + fun
And the final formula:
how fast your skill will grow = time spent * talent * mental/physical health.
Everyone can do anything at super high level, but most of us losing fun on the road
I actually came to post this exact thing, but you worded it perfect.
This is what my life experience tells me. I know it's true for me at least.
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On January 17 2021 02:36 FragKrag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2021 23:54 oxKnu wrote:On January 16 2021 23:37 Peeano wrote:
Interesting thread.
Something I don't really see people touch upon (sorry if I missed it) is the value of having a good mentor:
Good coaches/teachers can present in a way and hand you certain tools that make it easier and thus more fun (or vice versa) to achieve a higher level.
..because it's less relevant today in the era of open information and endless possibilities towards accumulation/aggregation of knowledge. Sure there are psychological aspects to having a mentor figure but let's be honest, if you have the drive you can find out a lot of things today from your chair in your pajamas. In other words the system has been simplified to just the capabilities of the individual to achieve mastery. I think you are significantly underrating the ability of a mentor to highlight important aspects of a subject and save time. eg if I tell you to find something in a 1000 page book, that might take you a while, but a mentor who knows the book can go say "hey that's in chapter 2". Just having access to knowledge does not mean you can utilize it quickly, and maybe more importantly verify its accuracy and scope. If you've ever done any research in an academic environment you will quickly recognize how difficult it is to find the words or context of something even if you know what you are looking for.
Perhaps 1% of 1% actually try to attain expertise in these type of fields anyways. And in most cases (academics let's say) the foundation is already set to have access to that type of mentorship. You don't necessarily try to do advanced academic research by not already having roots in that system.
Those circles are very sparsely populated anyways, so much that the problem is mostly about funding (rather than finding adequate advisors).
Still we are in a game forum talking about a game with quite the history and that's a complete different environment.
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Northern Ireland27126 Posts
On January 17 2021 02:36 FragKrag wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2021 23:54 oxKnu wrote:On January 16 2021 23:37 Peeano wrote:
Interesting thread.
Something I don't really see people touch upon (sorry if I missed it) is the value of having a good mentor:
Good coaches/teachers can present in a way and hand you certain tools that make it easier and thus more fun (or vice versa) to achieve a higher level.
..because it's less relevant today in the era of open information and endless possibilities towards accumulation/aggregation of knowledge. Sure there are psychological aspects to having a mentor figure but let's be honest, if you have the drive you can find out a lot of things today from your chair in your pajamas. In other words the system has been simplified to just the capabilities of the individual to achieve mastery. I think you are significantly underrating the ability of a mentor to highlight important aspects of a subject and save time. eg if I tell you to find something in a 1000 page book, that might take you a while, but a mentor who knows the book can go say "hey that's in chapter 2". Just having access to knowledge does not mean you can utilize it quickly, and maybe more importantly verify its accuracy and scope. If you've ever done any research in an academic environment you will quickly recognize how difficult it is to find the words or context of something even if you know what you are looking for.
It’s an important observation you make there, definitely something that I can relate to. There’s great information out there but I’ve found myself overwhelmed with where to start, whose information is actually good etc etc. Mentors really do help a lot
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On January 16 2021 22:33 iFU.spx wrote:
I thought about it a lot. And i came up with that there’s no such thing as talent at all. What people call talent is a simple joy of doing what are you doing and making fun.
To sum it up:
Talent = passion + joy + fun
And the final formula:
how fast your skill will grow = time spent * talent * mental/physical health.
Everyone can do anything at super high level, but most of us losing fun on the road
Passion/joy/fun is more in line with work ethic imo, talent is being able to absorb info and figure the game out on your own (or anything else, this isn't strictly BW related). Always being able to perfect/optimize your play/process, you develop those skills through life experiences (competing at an early age plays a big role).
Work ethic/discipline can make you a high end progamer or competitor/athlete but when you put talent + work ethic together you get generational competitors. The type of ppl who are on a different level. It's very hard to have both those aspects in any discipline.
But at the end of the day talent is nothing without work ethic, whereas you can make something of yourself with work ethic and discipline. That's why work ethic is way more valuable, imo. Talent is the polished layer (there's multiple layers) that goes on top of work ethic, work ethic is the foundation.
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EPT
