EPTFlaSh on: What Exactly is "Talent" in Progaming?
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jinjin5000
United States1463 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2500 Posts
i Hear Flash saying that he is a product of hard work over talent, and he does not feel accepted by others in that way because of it. How frustrating must that be for him. I was watching a video of Magnus Carlsen earlier this year in the chess world saying the exact same thing. So i guess it' s safe to assume the secret of success is hard work, commitment and passion, not talent. Something about self-discovery and drawing your own understandings from your experience too. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7465 Posts
Been under a rock, I guess. That is a tremendous thing to hear. Great video, thank you Jinjin. | ||
GTR
51505 Posts
anyone that was around during his peak knew how good he was - he was just unfortunate his peak coincided with nada's. | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Thank you! | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9104 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2295 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10686 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28719 Posts
What I mean about the cultural divide is that europeans and americans have a greater tendency to value talent, while asians have a greater tendency to value hard work. Europeans and Americans might genuinely say 'I was talented, but I didn't put in the work required to succeed' and think they are describing themselves positively. To an asian, I have the impression that this would be considered a fairly negative trait. I also think there's absolutely no question Magnus Carlsen is extremely talented. Not disputing that he has worked hard, too, but when a 12 year old beats semi-professional or professional adults at something, it, by default, means they managed to get good faster than their competition did, because they won't have had the opportunity to spend more hours honing their craft. And I think only a small fraction of people can play a double digit number of blindfolded chess matches at the same time, no matter how much they practice. *It is fair by both Flash and Magnus Carlsen to say that there are others who have been more talented who never became equally good. That seems entirely likely. But if you were to judge them solely based on their talent (and talent is essentially 'how fast do you improve combined with how high your potential is'), they're still in the top 0.1%. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1659 Posts
On January 15 2021 16:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: I do think there's a cultural divide here, and it may play into what Flash is saying. I mean, for sure, he's a hard worker, no question about that. But I think there's also no question that he is also extremely talented. People don't become the best without both possessing innate talent and working hard - and especially people who become the best at a young age / the best in their age group will always be considered 'talented'. What I mean about the cultural divide is that europeans and americans have a greater tendency to value talent, while asians have a greater tendency to value hard work. Europeans and Americans might genuinely say 'I was talented, but I didn't put in the work required to succeed' and think they are describing themselves positively. To an asian, I have the impression that this would be considered a fairly negative trait. I also think there's absolutely no question Magnus Carlsen is extremely talented. Not disputing that he has worked hard, too, but when a 12 year old beats semi-professional or professional adults at something, it, by default, means they managed to get good faster than their competition did, because they won't have had the opportunity to spend more hours honing their craft. And I think only a small fraction of people can play a double digit number of blindfolded chess matches at the same time, no matter how much they practice. *It is fair by both Flash and Magnus Carlsen to say that there are others who have been more talented who never became equally good. That seems entirely likely. But if you were to judge them solely based on their talent (and talent is essentially 'how fast do you improve combined with how high your potential is'), they're still in the top 0.1%. This video has an interesting timing as I was thinking about that just yesterday, a good way to summarize it from my perspective is that hard work can overcome talent but talent cannot overcome hard work. However, in order to be part of the best in the world, you obviously need both. | ||
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JAG.war
United States76 Posts
On January 15 2021 16:52 Liquid`Drone wrote: What I mean about the cultural divide is that europeans and americans have a greater tendency to value talent, while asians have a greater tendency to value hard work. Europeans and Americans might genuinely say 'I was talented, but I didn't put in the work required to succeed' and think they are describing themselves positively. To an asian, I have the impression that this would be considered a fairly negative trait. Amen. As a Westerner myself, what's strange is that we separate "talent" from "wanting to work at it" at all. Talent is a mix of IQ & personality (personality being more important), and if you didn't stick with it, you probably didn't have the "personality set" for that particular thing to begin with, and you're better off finding something else that you actually want to stick with. Maybe you were definitely talented compared to your peers on a smaller stage, but you didn't actually care about it enough to stick around and compete at a higher level. So would you have made it? Possibly, but based on what evidence? Honestly, knowing the fact that you gave up on it, probably not. There are many people who were at the same level as you, but were driven to stick with it, and then succeeded. And that's actually okay. Life is a never-ending journey to find the things we love and actually want to do. Why try to claim fame to something you didn't actually want to do (/stick with)? We don't have to be spectacular at everything we do. That's why thoughts like this hurt my soul 'I was talented, but I didn't put in the work required to succeed' and think they are describing themselves positively. Because we should always be exploring new things to hang our hats onto, not hanging onto old stories. And that's why I prefer the Eastern philosophy in this case. | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
I do sincerely believe its hard work and passion, nothing else. Sure there are some things that can make you more "talented" like very agile fingers and stuff like that. Having stiff fingers isnt that great for keyboard mechanics. Not sure i would rate this as talent though. Some are born with it some are not (i dont have agile fingers and have a very hard time using the keyboard like Flash does for example). By going with the definition Talent: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/talent It would kind of mean anyone who can predict and outplay like Flash is talented. I still believe thats not talent but hard work and passion made him think more than others because he cant outplay using mechanics only anymore. Edit: Just because you put in more hours to understanding the game better or be innovative doesnt mean you are more talented imo. It just means you work harder than others and thats why you are better. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28719 Posts
To what degree this stuff is innate and to what degree talent can be developed at an early age is interesting, but there is no point pretending that everyone has an equal potential at everything. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
"hard work>>talent" is simply a easy feel good narrative for the masses, since obv the masses doesn't have much in the way of talent. the masses are also mostly labourers/salarymen, so glorifying hArD WoRK gets them to toil more for the shareholders and capitalists. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
Thanks for the translation as usual <3 | ||
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Jonas :)
United States511 Posts
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CoughingHydra
177 Posts
On January 15 2021 22:03 Jonas  wrote:My favorite blog on the planet wrote a post on whether the sort of insane skill in sports, science, music or anywhere else in life is due to mostly talent, or mostly hard work. I'd highly suggest that everyone gives it a read. Blog is called SlateStarCodex, and the article is titled "Parable of the Talents" Heh, I read precisely this post some time ago and would definitely recommend it (and the whole blog is awesome!). | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
If you think about all the things that go into skill, other than hard work, all of them will be things that are outside of your control, and thus influenced mostly through luck. 1. Where you are born and to whom (genetic intelligence/ability) 2. How you are raised (attentive parents, passion for knowledge and work ethic) 3. Positive influences by people who are not your parents, positive experiences in general (e.g. actually winning games right away and not getting crushed 20 times in a row when you start playing), safe place to learn and improve. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1659 Posts
On January 15 2021 22:03 Jonas wrote:My favorite blog on the planet wrote a post on whether the sort of insane skill in sports, science, music or anywhere else in life is due to mostly talent, or mostly hard work. I'd highly suggest that everyone gives it a read. Blog is called SlateStarCodex, and the article is titled "Parable of the Talents" The example of his A+ rank in English high school was a bit lame frankly because he simply says that he did not try that hard to get his rank while other did and did not achieve the same result like a 5 years old kid. How about all the others that did get A+ rank because of their hard work? And how does he scale to world class English speaker anyway? Is it really that difficult to be number 1 in your "no name" school, in your "no name" city, with your "no name" classmates? Of course your talent will come into play and have a much bigger difference on the outcome on such a low level. Now being on top of the world is a different thing and I have never heard one single person being the best in his field stating and I quote this article : I didn’t do it! I didn’t study at all, half the time I did the homework in the car on the way to school, those essays for the statewide competition were thrown together on a lark without a trace of real effort I guess at the end it's all about the frame of reference. | ||
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Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1893 Posts
On January 15 2021 07:19 AttackZerg wrote: I will be pretty much thankful, should you help me doing good things by sharing few bucks to the fund.The esport.fund is funding Flashes team? Been under a rock, I guess. That is a tremendous thing to hear. Great video, thank you Jinjin. | ||
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