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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On May 11 2018 14:41 Azzur wrote: I went through the whole thread but couldn't find a conclusive answer - is this exclusively as SC:R thing? Could you do this in the old BW 1.16? No. Same engine, same behaviour. 1.21, 1.16, 1.08 doesn't matter… | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
- works by spamming patrol after units had been forced on top of each other either by a mineral walking probe or HTs merging; - works in 1.16 exactly the same as in SC:R; - patrol command stops working after recall, improved mine clearance likely due to a higher unit density instead; - units get unstuck rather easily if you just move command them away from the vortex; - ladder terrans get triggered 100% of the time, please consider being mannered and don't use this bullshit lol. | ||
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radley
Poland582 Posts
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
On May 11 2018 14:41 Azzur wrote: I went through the whole thread but couldn't find a conclusive answer - is this exclusively as SC:R thing? Could you do this in the old BW 1.16? if you have gone through the whole thread you would've found a video where this was performed already in 2016 | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
On May 11 2018 15:29 Freakling wrote: No. Same engine, same behaviour. 1.21, 1.16, 1.08 doesn't matter… Just because it's the same engine doesn't mean everything behaves identically. If they did, then replays from 1.08 should theoretically still work on 1.21 (as replays from 1.16 do), and since they don't, it's obvious that some subtle things have changed. Maybe nothing terribly important, but saying "because game engine" is wrong. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 11 2018 14:24 CHEONSOYUN wrote: People seem to be ignoring the significance of mines being unable to detonate against this tactic; Recalls in general will become suddenly more difficult to deal with regardless of the number of units sent. This. Recalling any number of units with impunity is scary as hell. | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden525 Posts
On May 12 2018 00:04 TaardadAiel wrote: This. Recalling any number of units with impunity is scary as hell. Is that only because it's more units, or does the patrol micro help? | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States689 Posts
There hasn't been a gameplay patch in over a decade. To introduce one now would be blasphemous. | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States689 Posts
On May 11 2018 16:40 juvenal wrote: Known so far: - works by spamming patrol after units had been forced on top of each other either by a mineral walking probe or HTs merging; - works in 1.16 exactly the same as in SC:R; - patrol command stops working after recall, improved mine clearance likely due to a higher unit density instead; - units get unstuck rather easily if you just move command them away from the vortex; - ladder terrans get triggered 100% of the time, please consider being mannered and don't use this bullshit lol. Okay then. Time to let broodwar be broodwar. Don't touch the balance. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On May 11 2018 21:16 ejac wrote: Just because it's the same engine doesn't mean everything behaves identically. If they did, then replays from 1.08 should theoretically still work on 1.21 (as replays from 1.16 do), and since they don't, it's obvious that some subtle things have changed. Maybe nothing terribly important, but saying "because game engine" is wrong. Things like unit and ability stats have been changed (simple data file changes, nothing to do with the engine), some bugs, abuses and other fringe cases have been changed or been worked around (like preventing Siege Tanks from sieging up under landed buildings by making them explode), core engine functionality (such as collision handling, which is what we are talking here) has never been touched post-release. On May 12 2018 00:04 TaardadAiel wrote: This. Recalling any number of units with impunity is scary as hell. It is not any number of units, as I have already briefly discussed, only about up to twice the normal amount. There is an actual limit (though it's about 4 control groups, or 100 supply, worth of goons, more for Zealots…) | ||
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 12 2018 01:33 Freakling wrote: Things like unit and ability stats have been changed (simple data file changes, nothing to do with the engine), some bugs, abuses and other fringe cases have been changed or been worked around (like preventing Siege Tanks from sieging up under landed buildings by making them explode), core engine functionality (such as collision handling, which is what we are talking here) has never been touched post-release. It is not any number of units, as I have already briefly discussed, only about up to twice the normal amount. There is an actual limit (though it's about 4 control groups, or 100 supply, worth of goons, more for Zealots…) I meant that the mine clearance is dangerous out of proportion to the number of units sent, unless the two are related. A normal size recall that is mine-resistant is a frightening proposition. | ||
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On May 12 2018 01:45 TaardadAiel wrote: My two cents regarding that: Right now I am neither here nor there regarding whether units being preset on patrol command helps with the mine clearing.I meant that the mine clearance is dangerous out of proportion to the number of units sent, unless the two are related. A normal size recall that is mine-resistant is a frightening proposition. On the one hand patrol issues an instantaneous attack command to units, which would allow them to diffuse mines before they can explode. On the other hand Recall resets all orders of affected units (puts them on stop), which would cause the first attack to come out slower. Now, depending on the exact order of code execution (frame by frame), it is possible that the following happens: Units are first moved to the new location, then their order status is reset, so that in theory they could be in the old order state for a frame or so, allowing for a fast attack. I'd suggest the following setup to test this: Make a control group or two of units (Goons) to be recalled and gather them in a tight pack (no overlapping, just a normal matrix configuration for a standard recall). Make an Arbiter and get the upgrades (all this using cheats or a map editor). Have an enemy Terran minefield laid out at the intended Recall location. Safe the game. Now Alternatively put the Goons on hold position (which also allows for faster attacks) or stop (slower attacks) command before recalling them. Look how many mines get diffused, and how many goons killed. Repeat this a few times (20 times for each setup at least, to get something approaching statistical meaningfulness). Alternatively, or in addition, check the game code (OpenBW) and/or relevant data files (although I think this is probably found on the hard-coded level) how exactly Recall is processed internally. | ||
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TT1
Canada10010 Posts
On May 11 2018 14:24 CHEONSOYUN wrote: People seem to be ignoring the significance of mines being unable to detonate against this tactic; Recalls in general will become suddenly more difficult to deal with regardless of the number of units sent. I've still yet to see evidence of the mine thing, i've watched numerous vods/clips and there hasn't been a clear example of this happening. | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On May 11 2018 14:24 CHEONSOYUN wrote: People seem to be ignoring the significance of mines being unable to detonate against this tactic; Recalls in general will become suddenly more difficult to deal with regardless of the number of units sent. I really think this could be solved by scattering vultures all over the main base along with the minefield or having a control group of vultures ready to chase incoming arbiter so they could be there (along with the minefield already set) by the time protoss units get recalled, I'm pretty sure all protoss units will tend to afocus on vultures rather than mines. Unfortunately I don't have BW computer operative so I can't test it | ||
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CHEONSOYUN
531 Posts
Unlike a new build or strategy development, this is a black fleet suddenly being introduced that has no real counterplay or drawbacks; the risk is still one arbiter. No, having your army all together is not the biggest nightmare someone can have. On May 12 2018 04:55 LocoBolon wrote: I really think this could be solved by scattering vultures all over the main base along with the minefield or having a control group of vultures ready to chase incoming arbiter so they could be there (along with the minefield already set) by the time protoss units get recalled, I'm pretty sure all protoss units will tend to afocus on vultures rather than mines. Unfortunately I don't have BW computer operative so I can't test it Think of a typical anti-recall defense vs what's outlined above; recall was very strong and difficult enough to prepare against before this development. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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CHEONSOYUN
531 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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