Game-changing discovery: Clustered Recall - Page 11

On May 16 2018 07:09 niteReloaded wrote:
I tried splitting the army (pure goons, as I assumed it would ensure maximum retardation) after stacking them - which would happen in case of failed recall - and it's not hard at all.
I just used a mix of stop and move commands away from the center stacking point.
It seems that in 3-4 seconds they are unstacked.

I'm assuming this will be banned from tournaments after it's been used in one or a couple of high publicity matches.

PvT is slightly skewed in P favor, this might tweak it a percent or two more.

As people practice this tactic, it might make the cornerstone of some strategies.

On May 12 2018 02:06 Freakling wrote:
My two cents regarding that: Right now I am neither here nor there regarding whether units being preset on patrol command helps with the mine clearing.

On the one hand patrol issues an instantaneous attack command to units, which would allow them to diffuse mines before they can explode.
On the other hand Recall resets all orders of affected units (puts them on stop), which would cause the first attack to come out slower.
Now, depending on the exact order of code execution (frame by frame), it is possible that the following happens:
Units are first moved to the new location, then their order status is reset, so that in theory they could be in the old order state for a frame or so, allowing for a fast attack.

I'd suggest the following setup to test this:

Make a control group or two of units (Goons) to be recalled and gather them in a tight pack (no overlapping, just a normal matrix configuration for a standard recall). Make an Arbiter and get the upgrades (all this using cheats or a map editor). Have an enemy Terran minefield laid out at the intended Recall location. Safe the game.
Now Alternatively put the Goons on hold position (which also allows for faster attacks) or stop (slower attacks) command before recalling them. Look how many mines get diffused, and how many goons killed. Repeat this a few times (20 times for each setup at least, to get something approaching statistical meaningfulness).
Alternatively, or in addition, check the game code (OpenBW) and/or relevant data files (although I think this is probably found on the hard-coded level) how exactly Recall is processed internally.

On May 17 2018 05:13 TaardadAiel wrote:You be the testing guru around this thread, so I won't argue on anything related to the exact mechanism. So far, I gather, it's just an observation that's been tested independently by some pros and presumed to be true until disproven.

But it's a mechanic, let's call it that way, that can have a significant impact on the meta - one of the ways to deal with a recalling protoss goes down the drain. Leaving your base as terran with current rough timings where you reach a critical mass of upgraded mech and you assume the opposition has recall capabilities is suddenly much riskier. You either have to invest resources and space in turrets, possibly screwing your timing, or you have to invest APM directly or indirectly (through minimap awareness) on vessel defense. And if the stacked unit recall, even in normal size, has improved mine clearing abilities, then a unit cap on recalls won't bring the meta back where it was (then again, it could force protoss to be pickier in choosing which units they want to recall lest they leave behind a shuttle full of templar or an observer etc.).

On May 16 2018 22:08 niteReloaded wrote:

OK, so it's not like that anymore? : ))

I'm not following closely in recent times. I know Flash is killing everyone, but are other Ts > P??

[B]On May 17 2018 05:44 Freakling wrote:Again: stacking before the recall has no effect on unit position after the recall, unit orders before the recall simply get reset. So a 20 stacked Goon recall does not behave any different from a regular 20 Goon recall.

On May 17 2018 17:18 Freakling wrote:
If there is an actual effect and not just observer bias, my guess is that it is simply correlated to the number of recalled units. So it is only correlated with stacking insofar as stacking allows you to fit more units into the target area.

On May 17 2018 22:31 Freakling wrote:
The units will be placed without overlap upon arrival, so whether they have been stacked or not beforehand makes absolutely no difference.

EDIT: I updated my test map to now also include a normal (25 goons) and big (50 goons) stack as well as a more sophisticated mine layout (now quite effective at blowing up all the goons). I still haven't added any other combat units or Observers into the mix.
A short test run indicates that on average a normal sized recall (stacked or not) directly kills about 3 to 4 of 16 mines, whereas an enhanced recall (from the big stack) clears about 5 to 6 mines on average.

EDIT 2: Might actually be more like 7 to 8 mines for the big stack recall.

EDIT 3: Did some further modification to the map. Stacking is now fully automated, giving you a very reliable setup. The big stack is now 100 goons. I added a counter for recalled goons (gas value). I found that 56 goons can consistently fit into a single recall (112 supply, 4+ control groups). With those huge recalls, average mine clearing rate is about 8, double that of a conventional recall.

On May 18 2018 10:13 Dazed. wrote:
So how have the results been in game, people? Is it effective? Thats all that really matters, not number crunching.

On May 18 2018 10:13 Dazed. wrote:
So how have the results been in game, people? Is it effective? Thats all that really matters, not number crunching.