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On March 29 2017 02:06 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2017 01:45 lestye wrote:On March 29 2017 01:40 Sr18 wrote:
I don't notice any delay in Dota2 when I'm playing with low ping. Do you have any recent source about the input delay that you mentioned? The link you gave is 5 years old. I think 5 years ago, there was "some" delay, but a good chunk of the whining was from kids from HoN and LoL that really disliked the cast and turn speeds of Dota 2. LoL players cried about the cast and turn speed in Dota 2? I haven't played Dota 2 myself but the turn speed/casting animation canceling in LoL was abysmal...
Thats the thing, everything was absolutely instant. Its super super easy to last hit in LoL, and your character spins around instantly. That's why melee carries aren't really a thing in LoL, since a ranged carry has infinite kiting potential. (Usually in Dota, ranged characters turn around slower than melee characters, giving ranged a disadvantage if melee is able to get too close, they can stutter up infinitely.)
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hug, I forgot about this delay in SC2
what is the reason for it? Something with changing settings on servers? for reducing cost?
??
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any news on the linux front?
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anyone know something about this SC:R working on mac?? please some one help me !!
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On March 28 2017 19:59 Dapper_Cad wrote:
So there is a nearly half second delay in all those games and no-one noticed. This is what you are saying.
Oh, people notice. SC:BW and HoN people.
Yes, you do get used to it. Once you are in sync with the game, delay or not, you are in sync with the game. You correct for it. Obviously, you can do some amazing micro despite the delay.
But if you come from SC or HoN, and move to Dota2 or SC2, it irks. You want crisp control of units. When you have it, it is an amazing thing.
Yes, Dota2 has the same delay as WC3, as the central design philosophy is that it needs to match Dota as closely as possible. Unit rotations need to be added to the build-in delay. But WC3 also has unit rotation.
Yes, in single player you have optimal (very low) delay in SC2, or SC. But in multiplayer it is added to keep every player in sync with the game as SC2 doesn't allow players to go out of sync, doesn't use a server, and doesn't use client side prediction.
SC2 has the most silly online infrastructure possible; routed peer-to-peer.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/117158-some-notes-regarding-sc2-networking
That setup has a lot of disadvantages, but gives Blizzard the control they want, without having much server demand.
Saying that SC2 has no delay at all is silly talk. You always have a delay. The minimum delay possible is a delay up to the next frame/game update. The point is not having the same delay as in single player as in multi player because of network code that puts crisp play on a low priority.
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For the delay thing, the top answer here seems reasonable:
http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/65049/how-long-is-starcraft-2s-typical-input-delay-compared-to-other-competitive-game
If I've understood (and I'm pretty sure I've only got the broad strokes):
Because you're dealing with a lot more data in an RTS as you have more individual units, you're force into a queuing system for commands. The queue in SC2 is updated 5 times a second. That's a "built in" 200ms (one fifth of a second) delay. I was incredulous when someone said 400 ms before, but 200ms is believable.
Someone said earlier that Blizz experimented with reducing this delay, what I'd guess this means is that they tried updating the queue more times per second, but when no-one said much they reverted. This makes sense because a noticeable difference might mean doubling the update rate (ten times per second would mean reducing the delay from 200ms - 100ms) which would also mean doubling the network traffic which would mean more expense.
It all seems plausible and reasonable... I'd be interested if anyone could find an RTS which updates faster.
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I think there's a conflicting use of terms here. I can accept that there is some built "delay" with SC2, but its not the same thing at all compared the giant battle.net delay you see in WC3 and SC1's battle.net play. When I micro online in SC2 its super smooth, WC3 its freaking unbearable and I absolutely hate it. Ultimately we're talking about different kinds of delay or different degrees of it.
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Last time I played SC2, in beta for free, it was like battle.net. Last time I saw someone measure it, it was 400ms. Last time I saw Blizzard talk about it, they said they made it higher.
When a currenct SC2 player comes to me and tells me they don't feel a delay, I take that with a grain of salt. When Blizzard comes out with a remake of SC and don't talk about the build-in delay, I am not convinced either. So do or don't we need plugins to get our LAN latency back, with SC:R?
That 98% of the Dota2/LoL/SC2 players don't care about this, never talk about this, I understand. But I am not in that category.
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did the patch come out for the americans? So can i expect the patch for me tomorrow then?
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On March 29 2017 03:42 Philoctetes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2017 19:59 Dapper_Cad wrote:
So there is a nearly half second delay in all those games and no-one noticed. This is what you are saying.
Oh, people notice . SC:BW and HoN people. Yes, you do get used to it. Once you are in sync with the game, delay or not, you are in sync with the game. You correct for it. Obviously, you can do some amazing micro despite the delay. But if you come from SC or HoN, and move to Dota2 or SC2, it irks. You want crisp control of units. When you have it, it is an amazing thing. Yes, Dota2 has the same delay as WC3, as the central design philosophy is that it needs to match Dota as closely as possible. Unit rotations need to be added to the build-in delay. Yes, in single player you have no delay in SC2, or SC. But in multiplayer it is added to keep every player in sync with the game as SC2 doesn't allow players to go out of sync, doesn't use a server, and doesn't use client side prediction. SC2 has the most silly online infrastructure possible; routed peer-to-peer. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/117158-some-notes-regarding-sc2-networkingThat setup has a lot of disadvantages, but gives Blizzard the control they want, without having much server demand. Saying that SC2 has no delay at all is silly talk. You always have a delay. The minimum delay possible is a delay up to the next frame. The point is not having the same delay as in single player as in multi player because of network code that puts crisp play on a low priority.
Posted at the same time as you ^^. I am fairly sure I'd notice 400ms, the post I linked had some random guy saying "(typically, around 12 frames ie. 200ms)" but I have no clue how bang on that is. The post you linked seems to contain no useful information for the released version of SC2 because of the switch from TCP to UDP.
I assume if BW doesn't have the delay over LAN it's because they are less worried about how much data the network is using so they can update the game state more often (?). What's your contention here? That BW updates more often over LAN? Over B-net? On fish?
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It is not a matter of updating. LAN latency for SC is also not the same as latency in single player, and neither is instantanious, as the game isn't forced to update prematurely just because it got an input/command.
BW and SC2 use the same amount of bandwith. A game like HoN uses about 10x as much. I played SC with a 28.8 baud modem. The netcode was written for that. Right now, I am on 1gbit fibreglass. Yet Blizzard seems to be forcing me to play with delay, because a player might be laggy and their netcode is too lazy to handle it smartly.
Just like the SC2 engine is fundamentally flawed to facilitate a crisp microable RTS, so their SC2 netcode has no regard for what type of game it is going to facilitate. Why? Because most of their player base doesn't seem to care. They never had as a design criteria for their netcode: "Ok guys. We need to find multiple tricks to keep this inbuild delay as low as possible, and come up with some intricate code for it." No. They just put in a delay, routed peer to peer, and that's that.
It is the same way as their game engine fundamentally doesn't alllow proper micro, because what kind of control the game engine would lead to was never a consideration in the minds or discussions of those that wrote the code at that time.
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On March 29 2017 02:52 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2017 02:06 Miragee wrote:On March 29 2017 01:45 lestye wrote:On March 29 2017 01:40 Sr18 wrote:
I don't notice any delay in Dota2 when I'm playing with low ping. Do you have any recent source about the input delay that you mentioned? The link you gave is 5 years old. I think 5 years ago, there was "some" delay, but a good chunk of the whining was from kids from HoN and LoL that really disliked the cast and turn speeds of Dota 2. LoL players cried about the cast and turn speed in Dota 2? I haven't played Dota 2 myself but the turn speed/casting animation canceling in LoL was abysmal... Thats the thing, everything was absolutely instant. Its super super easy to last hit in LoL, and your character spins around instantly. That's why melee carries aren't really a thing in LoL, since a ranged carry has infinite kiting potential. (Usually in Dota, ranged characters turn around slower than melee characters, giving ranged a disadvantage if melee is able to get too close, they can stutter up infinitely.)
This is a misconception, LoL's idea of a "carry" is more of a glass cannon than someone who can 1v5 enemy teams. It makes no sense to have a melee glass cannon.
There were "hyper carries" or "Dota-style" carries in season 1 of LoL and some of them were in fact melee.
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I just fired up a dota2 bot game. Zero delay. Everything responded instantly. Puck's phase shift for instance, happened on screen before I even managed to fully press the hotkey for it. If there is a build in delay of several hundred ms, it's definitely not there in a lobby I hosted. I don't have time to test in a regular match. The bot game felt normal though, so I doubt there is much of a delay otherwise (other than ping, which is 0 for a locally hosted game and between 20-50 ms in a normal match).
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France1919 Posts
Patch Will Happen 3/30 US Time.
EDT? so for Europe it means Friday March 31st at 06:00 AM ?
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On March 29 2017 04:24 Sr18 wrote:
I just fired up a dota2 bot game. Zero delay. Everything responded instantly. Puck's phase shift for instance, happened on screen before I even managed to fully press the hotkey for it. If there is a build in delay of several hundred ms, it's definitely not there in a lobby I hosted. I don't have time to test in a regular match. The bot game felt normal though, so I doubt there is much of a delay otherwise (other than ping, which is 0 for a locally hosted game and between 20-50 ms in a normal match).
Look. I am a scientist. I have do experiements on the femto-timescale.
You entering a game and saying there is literally 'zero delay' is just meaningless to me, because the game doesn't have an infinitely high frame rate. That you mean that you 'feel no delay' is also meaingless to me.
I also suspect that if you play a game in lobby in Dota2, there is single player delay, not multiplayer delay. So besides your measuring stick not being able to measure what we want to talk about, whatever you tried to measure probably wasn't there anyway.
You need to somewhat high speed camera to measure the screen, so the frames can be counted. Then it can be shown how much difference there is in different games and game modes. Not until you can accurately link a mouse press with whatever is recorded on screen, you can know for sure.
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On March 29 2017 04:26 HaN- wrote:EDT? so for Europe it means Friday March 31st at 06:00 AM ?
3/30 US Time is not a day later in Europe. If it happens at midnight it's 6 AM on 3/30 in europe. But since blizzard is west coast it'd be more like 9 am. However, chances are they'll patch sometime at noon US time so that'd be evening in europe. Either way the patch should hit sometime on March 30, even if you are in Europe.
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damn, now i dont even wanna play BW:R if there's gonna be gamer scientists playing. how could i possibly win against that
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Preparation != Patch is live
You can log onto US East/West right now if you don't believe me. The patch will come out on Thursday for all regions.
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On March 29 2017 04:24 Sr18 wrote:
I just fired up a dota2 bot game. Zero delay. Everything responded instantly. Puck's phase shift for instance, happened on screen before I even managed to fully press the hotkey for it. If there is a build in delay of several hundred ms, it's definitely not there in a lobby I hosted. I don't have time to test in a regular match. The bot game felt normal though, so I doubt there is much of a delay otherwise (other than ping, which is 0 for a locally hosted game and between 20-50 ms in a normal match).
I'm downloading Dota2, SC2 and HotS to get a definite answer. Will probably post results in 24 hours.
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EPT
