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I know this idea has been talked about before, but I believe it's time for a dedicated discussion.
After watching the PSL the other day, the OSL seems so hard to qualify for if you have to start from scratch. With so many progamers these days, would it be beneficial for OGN to create say a 2nd division style competition to keep the gamers active on the scene and encourage continued participation? I was thninking they could run a highlights show of the games every week with a quick review of the games, and maybe even show a game of the week in full?
Does OGN need another league to cater for the growing progaming ranks? Thoughts?
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No. There are enough already.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
No but i think they need to start forced retirement or something. Seeing the same players over and over making leagues is kind of boring.
Actually wait i have a better idea. Rookie tournament where all the rookies for teams battle off for best new progamer status (draco would have to be included in this  )
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No, I personally prefer few but high quality games other than mass games every week and all look the same.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Hmm Kennigit there IS a rookie league on mbc but i'm not sure how it really works (it's televised, too).
ODL used to be this "second tier" tournament before ODT i think? It would run concurrently with OSL
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With the growing numbers, it really makes it harder, not only are there a ton of good people you need to beat to get in, but you can't really practice against one thing because you have to fight so many differen't playing styles in these big groups. I think it is nice and bad that amatuers (good or not) play against veterans. It's nice because sometimes the vets lose, and show possible new gosus, and its bad because sometimes the veteran is hot atm, and he just destroys like 4 guys 2:0 and they get no chance this season. IMO there should be a PSL, and they take the main winners, and send them off to play in the OSL, and then the people that lose to the people that went to OSL, but still got far, start their own league. While it would be like a big losers brackett, it would give a chance for people who did good, but couldn't quite matchup with say, Bisu or Savior, to get a few wins, and some experiance on tv. What do you guys think?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they could change the format of the low level tournaments, make it a ladder system or something.
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My thinking behind this is that it's basically becoming a crapshoot to qualify for an OSL. WIth so many good players, all so close in skill, would it not make more sense to make a tiered system when players can slowly work their way up via consistent performances rather than winning a few random bo3 and bo1 series?
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On March 15 2007 20:51 RowdierBob wrote:
My thinking behind this is that it's basically becoming a crapshoot to qualify for an OSL. WIth so many good players, all so close in skill, would it not make more sense to make a tiered system when players can slowly work their way up via consistent performances rather than winning a few random bo3 and bo1 series?
Ownage.
Creates more matches, more interest, more art.
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Exactly. You could get more sponsorship, and it wouldnt cost that much to make. Just splice together some highlights, with some commentary from a guy over the top (like soccer highlights shows) and maybe highlight a game of the week. Something like this would surely only boost BWs profile no?
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
they can just pick up some good key matches to show. i dont like how every 'fight' is given so much practice time, make it more open and less of the 'practice for 30 days for a little bo3'
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
the danger is in oversaturating a market that may be already increasing too fast for its own good.
I mean look at what the schedule is like when MSL/Survivor/OSL/Proleague are going on. It's pretty much SC every day of the week.
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"a little bo3" to qualify for BIG ASS LEAGUES 
ohh...666 im the muta fukin dehvel!  ....ehhh these devil icons are kinda shitty =P
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On March 15 2007 20:35 RowdierBob wrote:
I was thninking they could run a highlights show of the games every week with a quick review of the games, and maybe even show a game of the week in full?
I like this idea. Maybe pro gaming isn't big enough that people will be interested in watching 50 games a week, but if they show game of the week, or they show 3-4 best games of the week, people would probably watch it. I mean, in OSL, about 80% of the games are boring. Showing only games of the week would filter out all the boring crap, making every single showing exciting. And it's not like the quality of players is much worse than OSL. The thing lacking would be the atmosphere and the drama, but a second tier league would be filled with quality players.
And with something like this, we would have a better idea of where a lot of the pros stand, instead of saying "OMG Anytime lost to Nada, hugeaaasssss slump"
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 15 2007 21:02 Metal[x] wrote:"a little bo3" to qualify for BIG ASS LEAGUES ohh...666 im the muta fukin dehvel! ....ehhh these devil icons are kinda shitty =P that's even more problematic, a little bo3 to qualify for big ass league, backed up by only "oh i practiced ttttttttttttthiiiis much"
this sport should be introduced to the concept of sample size.
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Ok, i have a question for you guys. How many of you watch sports channels after there are a ton of football (american), soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, tennis, etc. games have been on and you weren't able to watch them all? Ok, im sure atleast everyone has seen one or two sports shows, and instead of showing the entire games, they show small clips of the "gg plays" and the final scores and who won, going through like 30 games in 10 minutes so you know the highlights and winners of each game, WTF can't OGN and MBC make a 1 hour show every week to just highlight all the games so instead of having to watch all of them you could just tune in and stay up to date..? This would eliminate the problem with only showing certain games (for the most part) and this way even if you missed the game you don't have to go download a VOD, you can just watch a quick highlight and get up to date.
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That's what TL.net is for!
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On March 15 2007 21:09 RowdierBob wrote:
That's what TL.net is for!
Yeah, and just reading subtitles is just as good as watching a movie
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I think teams should me the main part of starcraft progaming, not induvidual leagues. Induvidual leagues should only be for champion players. Starcraft should be shown as more as a team sport. Proleague should be the number one starcraft source. OSL and MSL should only be once a year.
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On March 15 2007 21:15 thedeadhaji wrote:haha .kaz you speak of this so called "SportsCenter"? oh one thing that can also work, is to have the vods of these "lower" games available on the OGN webpage, instead of through the TV airtimes. That would be a good compromise I think, with fans able to tune into their favorite players' games?
Haha, shh, im not really a sports fan i couldn't think of the name
On March 15 2007 21:14 himurakenshin wrote:
I think teams should be the main part of starcraft progaming, not induvidual leagues. Induvidual leagues should only be for champion players. Starcraft should be shown as more as a team sport. Proleague should be the number one starcraft source. OSL and MSL should only be once a year.
You just hit the nail on the head kid. We need more 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 games. Im tired of 1v1's, with minimal action, when you could have a 4v4. An action packed, 8 amazing 300+ apm players on huge maps having epic battles all over the map, not a single second of downtime. Even more amazing? An 8 player Pro FFA. While 1v1's do show skill and rank, wouldn't it be alot funner to see 4x the players, strats, harass, micro, macro? I guess thats for another time and place, wink wink hint hint someone start the thread before i do.
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On March 15 2007 20:47 MYM.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 20:39 Kennigit wrote:No but i think they need to start forced retirement or something. Seeing the same players over and over making leagues is kind of boring. Actually wait i have a better idea. Rookie tournament where all the rookies for teams battle off for best new progamer status (draco would have to be included in this ) YOU HAVE A STAR ON YOUR NAME AFTER THIS POST? REVOKED. Jesus fucking christ I want to slap the shit out of you right now for making a post so blatantly fucking stupid my head damn near exploded. "Hey, thanks for working so hard and putting off everything in your life to make it this far for shitty pay (for most people). You've been playing too long though sir, in your lengthy 2 year career. GTFO."
XD.
Wow. nicely said..
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Team games are boring imo compared to 1v1. 2v2 isn't so bad, but could you imagine a 3v3 or 4v4? Mass zeal + ling + mnm battles. =[
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On March 15 2007 21:21 .kaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:15 thedeadhaji wrote:haha .kaz you speak of this so called "SportsCenter"? oh one thing that can also work, is to have the vods of these "lower" games available on the OGN webpage, instead of through the TV airtimes. That would be a good compromise I think, with fans able to tune into their favorite players' games? Haha, shh, im not really a sports fan i couldn't think of the name Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:14 himurakenshin wrote:
I think teams should be the main part of starcraft progaming, not induvidual leagues. Induvidual leagues should only be for champion players. Starcraft should be shown as more as a team sport. Proleague should be the number one starcraft source. OSL and MSL should only be once a year. You just hit the nail on the head kid. We need more 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 games. Im tired of 1v1's, with minimal action, when you could have a 4v4. An action packed, 8 amazing 300+ apm players on huge maps having epic battles all over the map, not a single second of downtime. Even more amazing? An 8 player Pro FFA. While 1v1's do show skill and rank, wouldn't it be alot funner to see 4x the players, strats, harass, micro, macro? I guess thats for another time and place, wink wink hint hint someone start the thread before i do. anything bigger than 2v2 stops being competitive, there's absolutely nothing you can do to save someone in a 4v1 rush situation
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i would much prefer something along these lines with a system of promotions/relegation for the OSL. I never really realized it until looking at the PSL draw and results that it almost is a huge game of rock scissors paper on who you see in starleagues. I thought about this for the proleague previously, using amateur teams as well as the pro teams, but i think it might be a much better idea in the single leagues.
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On March 15 2007 21:29 ShcShc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 20:47 MYM.Testie wrote:On March 15 2007 20:39 Kennigit wrote:No but i think they need to start forced retirement or something. Seeing the same players over and over making leagues is kind of boring. Actually wait i have a better idea. Rookie tournament where all the rookies for teams battle off for best new progamer status (draco would have to be included in this ) YOU HAVE A STAR ON YOUR NAME AFTER THIS POST? REVOKED. Jesus fucking christ I want to slap the shit out of you right now for making a post so blatantly fucking stupid my head damn near exploded. "Hey, thanks for working so hard and putting off everything in your life to make it this far for shitty pay (for most people). You've been playing too long though sir, in your lengthy 2 year career. GTFO." XD. Wow. nicely said..
Wow, just when I thought Testie's post couldn't get worse someone actually congratulates him on his post? If he was anyone else would they be allowed to talk to people like this?
I highly doubt that he was saying after 2 years ship the guys out because they are still there. Just because Testie is good at starcraft doesn't give him a right to be a complete asshole
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
no, sc is an individualized game, maybe have the individual play be more diversified and interesting, the team plays introduce only drama, nothing else.
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On March 15 2007 21:33 Zanno wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:21 .kaz wrote:On March 15 2007 21:15 thedeadhaji wrote:haha .kaz you speak of this so called "SportsCenter"? oh one thing that can also work, is to have the vods of these "lower" games available on the OGN webpage, instead of through the TV airtimes. That would be a good compromise I think, with fans able to tune into their favorite players' games? Haha, shh, im not really a sports fan i couldn't think of the name On March 15 2007 21:14 himurakenshin wrote:
I think teams should be the main part of starcraft progaming, not induvidual leagues. Induvidual leagues should only be for champion players. Starcraft should be shown as more as a team sport. Proleague should be the number one starcraft source. OSL and MSL should only be once a year. You just hit the nail on the head kid. We need more 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 games. Im tired of 1v1's, with minimal action, when you could have a 4v4. An action packed, 8 amazing 300+ apm players on huge maps having epic battles all over the map, not a single second of downtime. Even more amazing? An 8 player Pro FFA. While 1v1's do show skill and rank, wouldn't it be alot funner to see 4x the players, strats, harass, micro, macro? I guess thats for another time and place, wink wink hint hint someone start the thread before i do. anything bigger than 2v2 stops being competitive, there's absolutely nothing you can do to save someone in a 4v1 rush situation
Very true, but 4v1 rush, that means its 3 people with good economy and decent army vs 4 with absolutly nothing but early rush units. It would quickly become 3v3 or 3v2..
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On March 15 2007 21:38 .kaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:33 Zanno wrote:On March 15 2007 21:21 .kaz wrote:On March 15 2007 21:15 thedeadhaji wrote:haha .kaz you speak of this so called "SportsCenter"? oh one thing that can also work, is to have the vods of these "lower" games available on the OGN webpage, instead of through the TV airtimes. That would be a good compromise I think, with fans able to tune into their favorite players' games? Haha, shh, im not really a sports fan i couldn't think of the name On March 15 2007 21:14 himurakenshin wrote:
I think teams should be the main part of starcraft progaming, not induvidual leagues. Induvidual leagues should only be for champion players. Starcraft should be shown as more as a team sport. Proleague should be the number one starcraft source. OSL and MSL should only be once a year. You just hit the nail on the head kid. We need more 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 games. Im tired of 1v1's, with minimal action, when you could have a 4v4. An action packed, 8 amazing 300+ apm players on huge maps having epic battles all over the map, not a single second of downtime. Even more amazing? An 8 player Pro FFA. While 1v1's do show skill and rank, wouldn't it be alot funner to see 4x the players, strats, harass, micro, macro? I guess thats for another time and place, wink wink hint hint someone start the thread before i do. anything bigger than 2v2 stops being competitive, there's absolutely nothing you can do to save someone in a 4v1 rush situation Very true, but 4v1 rush, that means its 3 people with good economy and decent army vs 4 with absolutly nothing but early rush units. It would quickly become 3v3 or 3v2.. then we'll have no noticeable strategic improvement to speak of. taking into account limited power of the televised view of the game it would become chaotic.
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On March 15 2007 21:08 .kaz wrote:
Ok, i have a question for you guys. How many of you watch sports channels after there are a ton of football (american), soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, tennis, etc. games have been on and you weren't able to watch them all? Ok, im sure atleast everyone has seen one or two sports shows, and instead of showing the entire games, they show small clips of the "gg plays" and the final scores and who won, going through like 30 games in 10 minutes so you know the highlights and winners of each game, WTF can't OGN and MBC make a 1 hour show every week to just highlight all the games so instead of having to watch all of them you could just tune in and stay up to date..? This would eliminate the problem with only showing certain games (for the most part) and this way even if you missed the game you don't have to go download a VOD, you can just watch a quick highlight and get up to date.
I wouldn't watch it. In sports highlight, people can be doing similar activities but the faces aren't the same. In BW, the units are the same and the micro isn't so much different at that level. It lacks personality.
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They should make the PSL groups round-robin BO3 in groups of 8, top two from each group advance. It would take longer but it's not like there's a compelling need to rush through it all in one day anyway, and it would be a good way to reduce the luck factor.
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On March 15 2007 21:34 bErAtEd- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:29 ShcShc wrote:On March 15 2007 20:47 MYM.Testie wrote:On March 15 2007 20:39 Kennigit wrote:No but i think they need to start forced retirement or something. Seeing the same players over and over making leagues is kind of boring. Actually wait i have a better idea. Rookie tournament where all the rookies for teams battle off for best new progamer status (draco would have to be included in this ) YOU HAVE A STAR ON YOUR NAME AFTER THIS POST? REVOKED. Jesus fucking christ I want to slap the shit out of you right now for making a post so blatantly fucking stupid my head damn near exploded. "Hey, thanks for working so hard and putting off everything in your life to make it this far for shitty pay (for most people). You've been playing too long though sir, in your lengthy 2 year career. GTFO." XD. Wow. nicely said.. Wow, just when I thought Testie's post couldn't get worse someone actually congratulates him on his post? If he was anyone else would they be allowed to talk to people like this? I highly doubt that he was saying after 2 years ship the guys out because they are still there. Just because Testie is good at starcraft doesn't give him a right to be a complete asshole
Testie was right this time, forcibily kicking "old" players out of the leagues is an incredibly bad idea.
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Osaka27140 Posts
His way of saying the idea was wrong was not right though.
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On March 15 2007 22:30 gravity wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2007 21:34 bErAtEd- wrote:On March 15 2007 21:29 ShcShc wrote:On March 15 2007 20:47 MYM.Testie wrote:On March 15 2007 20:39 Kennigit wrote:No but i think they need to start forced retirement or something. Seeing the same players over and over making leagues is kind of boring. Actually wait i have a better idea. Rookie tournament where all the rookies for teams battle off for best new progamer status (draco would have to be included in this ) YOU HAVE A STAR ON YOUR NAME AFTER THIS POST? REVOKED. Jesus fucking christ I want to slap the shit out of you right now for making a post so blatantly fucking stupid my head damn near exploded. "Hey, thanks for working so hard and putting off everything in your life to make it this far for shitty pay (for most people). You've been playing too long though sir, in your lengthy 2 year career. GTFO." XD. Wow. nicely said.. Wow, just when I thought Testie's post couldn't get worse someone actually congratulates him on his post? If he was anyone else would they be allowed to talk to people like this? I highly doubt that he was saying after 2 years ship the guys out because they are still there. Just because Testie is good at starcraft doesn't give him a right to be a complete asshole Testie was right this time, forcibily kicking "old" players out of the leagues is an incredibly bad idea.
How is this completely right? If they are still winning then yes I agree let them play. But do you think that yellow's position was well deserved? He looked horrible! I don't think that Kennigit was saying as soon as someone hits a 3 yr limit remove them from starleagues and don't ever let them come back.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you dont force people to retire, the money involved and the people involved do that.
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There should be a league where everyone with a progamer license could participate and that longs all the year.. like in tenis.
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Still, a forced retirement is simply a bad idea. I just went super hyberbole on it because it struck me as that ludicrous of an idea.
Familiar faces is part of what gives fans a chance to be fans. You love to watch your favourite player play in sports. And people really enjoy seeing boxer play. It's not really any different. Sometimes they simply have a certain flare, play style, look, or some trait that makes them stick.
I personally love seeing crocop / fedor fights because they show that it's a real art form if you pay close attention. Or love seeing how Iverson draws double and triple teams to himself in basketball then either blow past them or make a hole in openings and pass it out.
Forcing a retirement in careers that haven't even lasted long as it's a completely new game / aspect is just too silly of an idea to take seriously at any level on any sport. Imo it'd be catoring to a very very very small minority, and would definitely lower the caliber of the games if you force all the best to simply quit after an arbitrary amount of time. It simply takes away from the sport.
The field of good players they had to go through to be at that point is what makes people respect consistent users in starleague so much and gives an air of true professionalism to the game. It's hard enough to get to a starleague given the field of players as it is.
Opening other leagues, where more matches can be played is imo a great idea and takes nothing away from the sport but simply provides more for it and creates even more interest. Win win situation really. More games for fans. More players get to play. More advertisements means more sponsorship, more money, more everything, no?
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On March 15 2007 23:07 MYM.Testie wrote:
Still, a forced retirement is simply a bad idea. I just went super hyberbole on it because it struck me as that ludicrous of an idea.
Familiar faces is part of what gives fans a chance to be fans. You love to watch your favourite player play in sports. And people really enjoy seeing boxer play. It's not really any different. Sometimes they simply have a certain flare, play style, look, or some trait that makes them stick.
I personally love seeing crocop / fedor fights because they show that it's a real art form if you pay close attention. Or love seeing how Iverson draws double and triple teams to himself in basketball then either blow past them or make a hole in openings and pass it out.
Forcing a retirement in careers that haven't even lasted long as it's a completely new game / aspect is just too silly of an idea to take seriously at any level on any sport. Imo it'd be catoring to a very very very small minority, and would definitely lower the caliber of the games if you force all the best to simply quit after an arbitrary amount of time. It simply takes away from the sport.
The field of good players they had to go through to be at that point is what makes people respect consistent users in starleague so much and gives an air of true professionalism to the game. It's hard enough to get to a starleague given the field of players as it is.
Opening other leagues, where more matches can be played is imo a great idea and takes nothing away from the sport but simply provides more for it and creates even more interest. Win win situation really. More games for fans. More players get to play. More advertisements means more sponsorship, more money, more everything, no?
Thanks for the response. I followed everything really well until you started talking about Iverson.
What you said implied defense in the NBA - something which I never knew existed 
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CA10826 Posts
superfight 6 should be something crazy like groups of 3 person ffa
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Let Proleague be the way in for the new players. Leave OSL and MSL for the consistent proffesional players. It is true that you need luck with brackets to go through the preliminaries.. but it is only a very small part of it.
It is no coincidence that 3/4 of the players actually getting past the preliminaries have done it before or are consistently playing the in the proleague. That 1/4 that goes through that are either practise partners or pure amateurs are in most cases the future pros that we will see more of.
My point is that the quality of the games are kept at such a high level thanks to the tough competetion in the preliminaries and that is what makes OSL / MSL so interesting.
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Perhaps 3v3 and 4v4 will be quite hard to televise and follows as well (8players is alot of jumping around) but with most main sports, it is all team oriented. People have favorite teams, and if you want to watch your favorite player, you have to watch their team games. Even if your player isn't performing too well, he doesn't get dropped and you don't get to see him play. Having induvidual starleages as the main part of starcraft (OSL,MSL) lets slumping players slump more, because they don't qualify for these leagues. The proleague should be the main source of starcraft progaming, slightly more emphasis on 2v2 (this will allow new and more interesting strats in starcraft which we havent seen before) and once a year have a champions league of the proleague (to determine the best player of the season). This will really push starcraft into a professional sport on the same leagues as basketball,soccer etc (it is still very much a sport, but I think this format would be the best)
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And the problem with making another league is that players get TIRED O_O
Look what happened to Savior 
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savior lost cos he sucks ok his adderall ran out
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The equivilent of the NIT. But seriously, who watches NIT games?
Time and viewership is a commodity not to be spoiled.
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There is the Ongamenet Duel Tournament as well and the survivor league and once the proleague's going again it does add up to quite a bit. Was the ODT televised last year? I can't seem to remember it... I know it used to be televised.
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EPT
