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On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream  However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone 
You're wrong! Now you can see all the pros in Brood War, where they will play in tournaments, sometimes even on the weekends, at which time you can get beer and pizza ^^
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On February 16 2016 08:19 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2016 09:17 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2016 07:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On February 15 2016 07:10 letian wrote:On February 15 2016 05:05 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On February 15 2016 04:59 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm actually so hyped for this, the resurrection of the best eSport is getting closer every day! I followed Brood War for a very long time but never actually played it. It wasn't until a couple of months ago I actually picked up the game and played it myself. I know the history of the game in and out, but I was never part of it. Just a spectator. Every day I see the Fish population growing, more lobbies, more people in chats, clans are taking in new people all the time, and the community is just a lot more upbeat compared to what I've seen and even when I first got on Fish. Ygosu is really active, Naver cafes are picking up speed, it's just amazing to see how quickly this game is picking up steam in Korea again. It feels great knowing I'm not the only one that's hopped on the next Brood War train. As somebody that speaks Korean and English and is involved with both scenes, I can just see the growth. Too bad iCCup is still a trash bin though. Shameless plug: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/503777-600-fish-maps-again I try to be optimistic, but there is no future unless we see some young players coming. Where are they? Flash and other blokes are nice, but they are just old-timers who once again stand up to bring back all the sweet memories. Seriously, they should make BW a national sport. I think we are in the rebuilding phase. The structure have to be rebuild in order to progress further. And having those players back WILL generate more interests in ACTUALLY going to Fish to maybe even face against the great and improve one's skills. Please be optimistic guys, this infighting is depressive.... In the past, you had to go through a grueling Courage tournament in order to even get a progamer license, had to be part of a proteam and live in a house with them and work on their schedule, which prevented players from having productive lives outside of the game. Now, the entry point is "be good." The best players get recognition, viewers, and balloons. They play and stream when they want. Of course personality plays a factor in this as well, but that's besides the point. I am saying all of this to illustrate the fact that now you don't have to put your IRL on hold, just dedicate more of your free time to practice. There is a much less convoluted, systematic, and prohibitive entry process for BW players to go big, thanks to afreeca. I think this might be a better foundation than the old system at aggregating new players. I was talking about this with someone just earlier today: I think that BW's resurgence is a testament to its timelessness and endurance. We've gone through the dark ages and are now on our second wind. There is no reason to not be optimistic about the future of BW. I'm very optimistic on BW for the next couple of years. On a timescale more like 5-10 years...not so confident. Why the concern? It's been 4 years now since BW was forced to give way to SC2. In that time, not one player that wasn't on a KeSPA team has had any sort of success. The scene is utterly dominated by the ex pros. Quite simply, given their many years of intense practice and training they are still vastly better than any of the guys that never had that experience. Maybe guys working their butt off 10 hours a day could claw their way up to that level, but as I will talk about we will not see this happen. Equally important, all the star power and interest lie with the ex pros, with the exception of the rare streaming personality like a Britney. Beyond that, people want to watch the former pros play because they have more memories and emotional ties to them and quite honestly the level of play is far superior. None of the players lacking significant KeSPA experience receive many viewers. Additionally, none of them are good enough to make an impact in leagues or to earn any amount of financial incentive through them. Bottom line take away is that their is absolutely no financial incentive available for 'rising amateurs', and their isn't really even a viewer or popularity incentive. For the KR amateurs playing, they are playing almost purely for the same reason foreigners are; because they love SC. Which is totally fine, but given the skill chasm that already exists between former KeSPA pros and those lacking that experience, the gap only has a chance of being bridged with a professional caliber dedicated practice regimen. Given what we already know from the financial incentives for amateurs, their is no way to justify or support the 10+ hour days of focused practice necessary to rise to that level. What this all means is that we will not see any player lacking KeSPA experience produce notable results in the scene. This leads to two (well three if you consider the deeply improbable) possible outcomes: 1) When most of the ex pros start leaving some of the amateur players can start being more competitive in the tournaments. However, with the disappearance of the star power and significant drop in talent level, viewership will decline and the overall interest will wane significantly. 2) The more optimistic outlook is that people truly love BW, and even when the KeSPA pros leave fans will still keep watching, despite the lack of their favorite personalities and inevitable drop in skill level. This will then support a low level BW scene that can continue to exist and be sustained by an overall lower level talent pool that allows new players on more reasonable practice regimens to rise into the ranks. BW scene will continue to exist in a healthy state, but never at the level of competition seen currently, let alone between 09-11. 3) Some unexpected significant twist comes that restores BW pro structure and results in a complete revival of a professional BW scene. Without radical overhaul of the current system, I'm extremely confident that in the current environment we will not see any amateur achieve any form of consistent + decent (top 16) results in any Korean leagues. An amateur may get a hot hand and have a decent run in one league, but no one is going to appear that can routinely compete with the KeSPA trained pros. The question then is where does BW go when their is a void left to be filled after the legends of KeSPA era progaming have left?
But if we see more BW tournaments and more sponsors for it, wouldn't that encourage a system (KeSPA-like) to foster talents to keep the scene going?
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On February 16 2016 08:05 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 07:40 letian wrote:
With Flash's return speculations about BW revival sprung up with more intensity.
Having read all the optimistic comments make me feel optimistic but I still feel like we need a proper Proleague in BW.
Like it was the days before, with all that spartan training schedule and striving for perfection.
What we have now are echoes of brilliance from some of the best players. Echoes eventually fade.
I followed BW since university, now I have a job, life, but I still keep coming back. Let's wait and enjoy, be it the last echoes or the new beginning of the good old game.
And no matter what you say, football, chess, Go are hundreds years old, if there is competition, the game lives. bw will only start dying when a true successor to its legacy comes out
That's a very optimistic way to view it unless you just mean that some people will keep playing it for fun even if there's no pro scene to speak of or any big tournaments. There is no true successor to Q3 or the arena shooter duel gametype in general but most of the pros are gone. Besides Quakecon there are just tiny online tournaments. RTS could very well go the same way but I'll give BW more hope since it's become a part of Korean culture in a way no other game ever has.
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On February 16 2016 19:55 nighcol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 08:05 Endymion wrote:On February 16 2016 07:40 letian wrote:
With Flash's return speculations about BW revival sprung up with more intensity.
Having read all the optimistic comments make me feel optimistic but I still feel like we need a proper Proleague in BW.
Like it was the days before, with all that spartan training schedule and striving for perfection.
What we have now are echoes of brilliance from some of the best players. Echoes eventually fade.
I followed BW since university, now I have a job, life, but I still keep coming back. Let's wait and enjoy, be it the last echoes or the new beginning of the good old game.
And no matter what you say, football, chess, Go are hundreds years old, if there is competition, the game lives. bw will only start dying when a true successor to its legacy comes out That's a very optimistic way to view it unless you just mean that some people will keep playing it for fun even if there's no pro scene to speak of or any big tournaments. There is no true successor to Q3 or the arena shooter duel gametype in general but most of the pros are gone. Besides Quakecon there are just tiny online tournaments. RTS could very well go the same way but I'll give BW more hope since it's become a part of Korean culture in a way no other game ever has.
Perhaps it was a clever way of saying that BW will never die.
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On February 15 2016 22:34 ArtOfBlack wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2016 20:09 kogeT wrote:
I honestly believe that on 21st he'll get like 50k viewers easily lol. NaDa gets 50k ...so FlaSh make it easy
NaDa - 27811 viewers max..
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On February 16 2016 17:17 WrathSCII wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 08:19 L_Master wrote:On February 15 2016 09:17 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2016 07:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On February 15 2016 07:10 letian wrote:On February 15 2016 05:05 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On February 15 2016 04:59 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm actually so hyped for this, the resurrection of the best eSport is getting closer every day! I followed Brood War for a very long time but never actually played it. It wasn't until a couple of months ago I actually picked up the game and played it myself. I know the history of the game in and out, but I was never part of it. Just a spectator. Every day I see the Fish population growing, more lobbies, more people in chats, clans are taking in new people all the time, and the community is just a lot more upbeat compared to what I've seen and even when I first got on Fish. Ygosu is really active, Naver cafes are picking up speed, it's just amazing to see how quickly this game is picking up steam in Korea again. It feels great knowing I'm not the only one that's hopped on the next Brood War train. As somebody that speaks Korean and English and is involved with both scenes, I can just see the growth. Too bad iCCup is still a trash bin though. Shameless plug: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/503777-600-fish-maps-again I try to be optimistic, but there is no future unless we see some young players coming. Where are they? Flash and other blokes are nice, but they are just old-timers who once again stand up to bring back all the sweet memories. Seriously, they should make BW a national sport. I think we are in the rebuilding phase. The structure have to be rebuild in order to progress further. And having those players back WILL generate more interests in ACTUALLY going to Fish to maybe even face against the great and improve one's skills. Please be optimistic guys, this infighting is depressive.... In the past, you had to go through a grueling Courage tournament in order to even get a progamer license, had to be part of a proteam and live in a house with them and work on their schedule, which prevented players from having productive lives outside of the game. Now, the entry point is "be good." The best players get recognition, viewers, and balloons. They play and stream when they want. Of course personality plays a factor in this as well, but that's besides the point. I am saying all of this to illustrate the fact that now you don't have to put your IRL on hold, just dedicate more of your free time to practice. There is a much less convoluted, systematic, and prohibitive entry process for BW players to go big, thanks to afreeca. I think this might be a better foundation than the old system at aggregating new players. I was talking about this with someone just earlier today: I think that BW's resurgence is a testament to its timelessness and endurance. We've gone through the dark ages and are now on our second wind. There is no reason to not be optimistic about the future of BW. I'm very optimistic on BW for the next couple of years. On a timescale more like 5-10 years...not so confident. Why the concern? It's been 4 years now since BW was forced to give way to SC2. In that time, not one player that wasn't on a KeSPA team has had any sort of success. The scene is utterly dominated by the ex pros. Quite simply, given their many years of intense practice and training they are still vastly better than any of the guys that never had that experience. Maybe guys working their butt off 10 hours a day could claw their way up to that level, but as I will talk about we will not see this happen. Equally important, all the star power and interest lie with the ex pros, with the exception of the rare streaming personality like a Britney. Beyond that, people want to watch the former pros play because they have more memories and emotional ties to them and quite honestly the level of play is far superior. None of the players lacking significant KeSPA experience receive many viewers. Additionally, none of them are good enough to make an impact in leagues or to earn any amount of financial incentive through them. Bottom line take away is that their is absolutely no financial incentive available for 'rising amateurs', and their isn't really even a viewer or popularity incentive. For the KR amateurs playing, they are playing almost purely for the same reason foreigners are; because they love SC. Which is totally fine, but given the skill chasm that already exists between former KeSPA pros and those lacking that experience, the gap only has a chance of being bridged with a professional caliber dedicated practice regimen. Given what we already know from the financial incentives for amateurs, their is no way to justify or support the 10+ hour days of focused practice necessary to rise to that level. What this all means is that we will not see any player lacking KeSPA experience produce notable results in the scene. This leads to two (well three if you consider the deeply improbable) possible outcomes: 1) When most of the ex pros start leaving some of the amateur players can start being more competitive in the tournaments. However, with the disappearance of the star power and significant drop in talent level, viewership will decline and the overall interest will wane significantly. 2) The more optimistic outlook is that people truly love BW, and even when the KeSPA pros leave fans will still keep watching, despite the lack of their favorite personalities and inevitable drop in skill level. This will then support a low level BW scene that can continue to exist and be sustained by an overall lower level talent pool that allows new players on more reasonable practice regimens to rise into the ranks. BW scene will continue to exist in a healthy state, but never at the level of competition seen currently, let alone between 09-11. 3) Some unexpected significant twist comes that restores BW pro structure and results in a complete revival of a professional BW scene. Without radical overhaul of the current system, I'm extremely confident that in the current environment we will not see any amateur achieve any form of consistent + decent (top 16) results in any Korean leagues. An amateur may get a hot hand and have a decent run in one league, but no one is going to appear that can routinely compete with the KeSPA trained pros. The question then is where does BW go when their is a void left to be filled after the legends of KeSPA era progaming have left? But if we see more BW tournaments and more sponsors for it, wouldn't that encourage a system (KeSPA-like) to foster talents to keep the scene going? In what sense was kespa ever useful to bw? In what sense would a cabal/monopoly ever be good for anything? Kespa didnt attract sponsors, they kept our rival leagues and made bizarre and arcane rules.
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On February 17 2016 04:19 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 17:17 WrathSCII wrote:On February 16 2016 08:19 L_Master wrote:On February 15 2016 09:17 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2016 07:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On February 15 2016 07:10 letian wrote:On February 15 2016 05:05 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On February 15 2016 04:59 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm actually so hyped for this, the resurrection of the best eSport is getting closer every day! I followed Brood War for a very long time but never actually played it. It wasn't until a couple of months ago I actually picked up the game and played it myself. I know the history of the game in and out, but I was never part of it. Just a spectator. Every day I see the Fish population growing, more lobbies, more people in chats, clans are taking in new people all the time, and the community is just a lot more upbeat compared to what I've seen and even when I first got on Fish. Ygosu is really active, Naver cafes are picking up speed, it's just amazing to see how quickly this game is picking up steam in Korea again. It feels great knowing I'm not the only one that's hopped on the next Brood War train. As somebody that speaks Korean and English and is involved with both scenes, I can just see the growth. Too bad iCCup is still a trash bin though. Shameless plug: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/503777-600-fish-maps-again I try to be optimistic, but there is no future unless we see some young players coming. Where are they? Flash and other blokes are nice, but they are just old-timers who once again stand up to bring back all the sweet memories. Seriously, they should make BW a national sport. I think we are in the rebuilding phase. The structure have to be rebuild in order to progress further. And having those players back WILL generate more interests in ACTUALLY going to Fish to maybe even face against the great and improve one's skills. Please be optimistic guys, this infighting is depressive.... In the past, you had to go through a grueling Courage tournament in order to even get a progamer license, had to be part of a proteam and live in a house with them and work on their schedule, which prevented players from having productive lives outside of the game. Now, the entry point is "be good." The best players get recognition, viewers, and balloons. They play and stream when they want. Of course personality plays a factor in this as well, but that's besides the point. I am saying all of this to illustrate the fact that now you don't have to put your IRL on hold, just dedicate more of your free time to practice. There is a much less convoluted, systematic, and prohibitive entry process for BW players to go big, thanks to afreeca. I think this might be a better foundation than the old system at aggregating new players. I was talking about this with someone just earlier today: I think that BW's resurgence is a testament to its timelessness and endurance. We've gone through the dark ages and are now on our second wind. There is no reason to not be optimistic about the future of BW. I'm very optimistic on BW for the next couple of years. On a timescale more like 5-10 years...not so confident. Why the concern? It's been 4 years now since BW was forced to give way to SC2. In that time, not one player that wasn't on a KeSPA team has had any sort of success. The scene is utterly dominated by the ex pros. Quite simply, given their many years of intense practice and training they are still vastly better than any of the guys that never had that experience. Maybe guys working their butt off 10 hours a day could claw their way up to that level, but as I will talk about we will not see this happen. Equally important, all the star power and interest lie with the ex pros, with the exception of the rare streaming personality like a Britney. Beyond that, people want to watch the former pros play because they have more memories and emotional ties to them and quite honestly the level of play is far superior. None of the players lacking significant KeSPA experience receive many viewers. Additionally, none of them are good enough to make an impact in leagues or to earn any amount of financial incentive through them. Bottom line take away is that their is absolutely no financial incentive available for 'rising amateurs', and their isn't really even a viewer or popularity incentive. For the KR amateurs playing, they are playing almost purely for the same reason foreigners are; because they love SC. Which is totally fine, but given the skill chasm that already exists between former KeSPA pros and those lacking that experience, the gap only has a chance of being bridged with a professional caliber dedicated practice regimen. Given what we already know from the financial incentives for amateurs, their is no way to justify or support the 10+ hour days of focused practice necessary to rise to that level. What this all means is that we will not see any player lacking KeSPA experience produce notable results in the scene. This leads to two (well three if you consider the deeply improbable) possible outcomes: 1) When most of the ex pros start leaving some of the amateur players can start being more competitive in the tournaments. However, with the disappearance of the star power and significant drop in talent level, viewership will decline and the overall interest will wane significantly. 2) The more optimistic outlook is that people truly love BW, and even when the KeSPA pros leave fans will still keep watching, despite the lack of their favorite personalities and inevitable drop in skill level. This will then support a low level BW scene that can continue to exist and be sustained by an overall lower level talent pool that allows new players on more reasonable practice regimens to rise into the ranks. BW scene will continue to exist in a healthy state, but never at the level of competition seen currently, let alone between 09-11. 3) Some unexpected significant twist comes that restores BW pro structure and results in a complete revival of a professional BW scene. Without radical overhaul of the current system, I'm extremely confident that in the current environment we will not see any amateur achieve any form of consistent + decent (top 16) results in any Korean leagues. An amateur may get a hot hand and have a decent run in one league, but no one is going to appear that can routinely compete with the KeSPA trained pros. The question then is where does BW go when their is a void left to be filled after the legends of KeSPA era progaming have left? But if we see more BW tournaments and more sponsors for it, wouldn't that encourage a system (KeSPA-like) to foster talents to keep the scene going? In what sense was kespa ever useful to bw? In what sense would a cabal/monopoly ever be good for anything? Kespa didnt attract sponsors, they kept our rival leagues and made bizarre and arcane rules.
So what do you think is necessary for the scene to continue exist beyond the ex-KeSPA players?
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On February 17 2016 04:19 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 17:17 WrathSCII wrote:On February 16 2016 08:19 L_Master wrote:On February 15 2016 09:17 Jealous wrote:On February 15 2016 07:41 ErectedZenith wrote:On February 15 2016 07:10 letian wrote:On February 15 2016 05:05 WinterViewbot420 wrote:On February 15 2016 04:59 plasmidghost wrote:
I'm actually so hyped for this, the resurrection of the best eSport is getting closer every day! I followed Brood War for a very long time but never actually played it. It wasn't until a couple of months ago I actually picked up the game and played it myself. I know the history of the game in and out, but I was never part of it. Just a spectator. Every day I see the Fish population growing, more lobbies, more people in chats, clans are taking in new people all the time, and the community is just a lot more upbeat compared to what I've seen and even when I first got on Fish. Ygosu is really active, Naver cafes are picking up speed, it's just amazing to see how quickly this game is picking up steam in Korea again. It feels great knowing I'm not the only one that's hopped on the next Brood War train. As somebody that speaks Korean and English and is involved with both scenes, I can just see the growth. Too bad iCCup is still a trash bin though. Shameless plug: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/503777-600-fish-maps-again I try to be optimistic, but there is no future unless we see some young players coming. Where are they? Flash and other blokes are nice, but they are just old-timers who once again stand up to bring back all the sweet memories. Seriously, they should make BW a national sport. I think we are in the rebuilding phase. The structure have to be rebuild in order to progress further. And having those players back WILL generate more interests in ACTUALLY going to Fish to maybe even face against the great and improve one's skills. Please be optimistic guys, this infighting is depressive.... In the past, you had to go through a grueling Courage tournament in order to even get a progamer license, had to be part of a proteam and live in a house with them and work on their schedule, which prevented players from having productive lives outside of the game. Now, the entry point is "be good." The best players get recognition, viewers, and balloons. They play and stream when they want. Of course personality plays a factor in this as well, but that's besides the point. I am saying all of this to illustrate the fact that now you don't have to put your IRL on hold, just dedicate more of your free time to practice. There is a much less convoluted, systematic, and prohibitive entry process for BW players to go big, thanks to afreeca. I think this might be a better foundation than the old system at aggregating new players. I was talking about this with someone just earlier today: I think that BW's resurgence is a testament to its timelessness and endurance. We've gone through the dark ages and are now on our second wind. There is no reason to not be optimistic about the future of BW. I'm very optimistic on BW for the next couple of years. On a timescale more like 5-10 years...not so confident. Why the concern? It's been 4 years now since BW was forced to give way to SC2. In that time, not one player that wasn't on a KeSPA team has had any sort of success. The scene is utterly dominated by the ex pros. Quite simply, given their many years of intense practice and training they are still vastly better than any of the guys that never had that experience. Maybe guys working their butt off 10 hours a day could claw their way up to that level, but as I will talk about we will not see this happen. Equally important, all the star power and interest lie with the ex pros, with the exception of the rare streaming personality like a Britney. Beyond that, people want to watch the former pros play because they have more memories and emotional ties to them and quite honestly the level of play is far superior. None of the players lacking significant KeSPA experience receive many viewers. Additionally, none of them are good enough to make an impact in leagues or to earn any amount of financial incentive through them. Bottom line take away is that their is absolutely no financial incentive available for 'rising amateurs', and their isn't really even a viewer or popularity incentive. For the KR amateurs playing, they are playing almost purely for the same reason foreigners are; because they love SC. Which is totally fine, but given the skill chasm that already exists between former KeSPA pros and those lacking that experience, the gap only has a chance of being bridged with a professional caliber dedicated practice regimen. Given what we already know from the financial incentives for amateurs, their is no way to justify or support the 10+ hour days of focused practice necessary to rise to that level. What this all means is that we will not see any player lacking KeSPA experience produce notable results in the scene. This leads to two (well three if you consider the deeply improbable) possible outcomes: 1) When most of the ex pros start leaving some of the amateur players can start being more competitive in the tournaments. However, with the disappearance of the star power and significant drop in talent level, viewership will decline and the overall interest will wane significantly. 2) The more optimistic outlook is that people truly love BW, and even when the KeSPA pros leave fans will still keep watching, despite the lack of their favorite personalities and inevitable drop in skill level. This will then support a low level BW scene that can continue to exist and be sustained by an overall lower level talent pool that allows new players on more reasonable practice regimens to rise into the ranks. BW scene will continue to exist in a healthy state, but never at the level of competition seen currently, let alone between 09-11. 3) Some unexpected significant twist comes that restores BW pro structure and results in a complete revival of a professional BW scene. Without radical overhaul of the current system, I'm extremely confident that in the current environment we will not see any amateur achieve any form of consistent + decent (top 16) results in any Korean leagues. An amateur may get a hot hand and have a decent run in one league, but no one is going to appear that can routinely compete with the KeSPA trained pros. The question then is where does BW go when their is a void left to be filled after the legends of KeSPA era progaming have left? But if we see more BW tournaments and more sponsors for it, wouldn't that encourage a system (KeSPA-like) to foster talents to keep the scene going? In what sense was kespa ever useful to bw? In what sense would a cabal/monopoly ever be good for anything? Kespa didnt attract sponsors, they kept our rival leagues and made bizarre and arcane rules.
Their organization was essential to promoting the viability of Brood War as mass-media entertainment. Let's give credit where credit is due: without KeSPA, none of the ex-pro players we love now would ever have been as good as they are now. It is the stringent demands of the organization and the consequent team rivalry dynamic that forced players to go above and beyond the wildest imaginations of skill. Year after year, people were improving relative to their previous selves, but simultaneously being overcome by players who improved at a faster rate. Such an environment would not have been possible without an organized team structure, in my opinion.
Is it necessary now? I don't think so. I commented on this above, and L_Master brought up good points to refute this, but it comes down to the fact that technology and media are vastly different now than they were in the 00's. Here's hoping that self-motivation takes us as far as borderline fascist dictatorship.
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On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone
Blizzard attacked Starcraft for money. But attention and momentum shifting to BW is good for Starcraft, because it is the better game. If people remember Starcraft as being SC2, with the lesser depth, micro, strategy and everything that SC2 lacks compared to BW and the flaws it has like huge volatility etc, that is bad for Starcraft and bad for RTS. Whether RTS must remain a niche genre from now on, or make a revival at some point in the future, the reference for it must be the best game, and that is BW. Furthermore, it is imaginable that RTS lost momentum because of SC2. First of all because BW was the #1 and it got attacked by Blizzard to make way for SC2. Secondly because SC2 doesn't bring a lot of new things on the table and was never as much fun even for casual players to play online. If SC2 had been the amazing game it should have been, RTS would likely be in a much better spot right now. Because it is not, the best thing we can hope for is that BW is recognized and looked at as the reference for RTS. In My Opinion.
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On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone
agreed 100% unfortunately
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On February 17 2016 06:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone Blizzard attacked Starcraft for money. But attention and momentum shifting to BW is good for Starcraft, because it is the better game. If people remember Starcraft as being SC2, with the lesser depth, micro, strategy and everything that SC2 lacks compared to BW and the flaws it has like huge volatility etc, that is bad for Starcraft and bad for RTS. Whether RTS must remain a niche genre from now on, or make a revival at some point in the future, the reference for it must be the best game, and that is BW. Furthermore, it is imaginable that RTS lost momentum because of SC2. First of all because BW was the #1 and it got attacked by Blizzard to make way for SC2. Secondly because SC2 doesn't bring a lot of new things on the table and was never as much fun even for casual players to play online. If SC2 had been the amazing game it should have been, RTS would likely be in a much better spot right now. Because it is not, the best thing we can hope for is that BW is recognized and looked at as the reference for RTS. In My Opinion.
i agree with this assessment 100%, idk why people think RTS is dead, we had casual games from 2000 to 2010 and RTS was still king...
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On February 17 2016 06:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone Blizzard attacked Starcraft for money. But attention and momentum shifting to BW is good for Starcraft, because it is the better game. If people remember Starcraft as being SC2, with the lesser depth, micro, strategy and everything that SC2 lacks compared to BW and the flaws it has like huge volatility etc, that is bad for Starcraft and bad for RTS. Whether RTS must remain a niche genre from now on, or make a revival at some point in the future, the reference for it must be the best game, and that is BW. Furthermore, it is imaginable that RTS lost momentum because of SC2. First of all because BW was the #1 and it got attacked by Blizzard to make way for SC2. Secondly because SC2 doesn't bring a lot of new things on the table and was never as much fun even for casual players to play online. If SC2 had been the amazing game it should have been, RTS would likely be in a much better spot right now. Because it is not, the best thing we can hope for is that BW is recognized and looked at as the reference for RTS. In My Opinion.
I don't think your attacks on SC2 are quite fair, to be honest. I'm the last person you'd expect to support SC2 in any way, shape, or form, but you can't put it down the way you did in this post.
I agree that BW is the best RTS. However, not everyone shares that view, and that's largely due to nostalgia. There are still people out there who think that Total Annihilation, Age of Empires 2, C&C nameyourseriesnumber, or StarCraft 2 are the best game ever, and they aren't entirely wrong. Each game brings something to the table for a person to get hooked on and follow with zeal, just like we as BW fans have for BW. Every fanbase can bring up facts, figures, and opinions explaining why their game is the best, but I think ultimately it boils down to nostalgia factor for most adamant supporters.
SC2 did a lot of things well. Casual play was one of them. Casual play in Brood War was limited to noob games and UMS, and of the latter there was variety but nowhere near the scope of SC2. SC2 has a vast variety of UMS games, and I do think the leagues (Gold, Silver, etc.) are a great way of catering to the casual player. In Brood War, even on rated servers like Fish and ICCup, you could enter a D rank game and get womped by a B rank player who made a smurf to cool off or to stomp on noobs. I played a Play/Obs Fighting Spirit on ICCup yesterday, my opponent was D 1v1 C 2v2, so probably not a total noob given the circumstances (despite the new ladder system), and I got demolished by cohesive Zerg play after doing a mildly-successful non-standard build, as if this player really knew his stuff. BWChart revealed his apm to be 341 in a 12+ minute game. This rarely happens in a tiered, account-locked game like SC2. SC2 also created more user-friendly/nerfed/dumbed-down, whatever you want to call them, controls. So, I would say that it caters to the casual way more than BW, especially given the prohibitively high level of play in 1v1 BW on any relevant server at the moment. SC2 also brought "terrible, terrible damage," English streams, foreign regional tournaments, etc., which are all a huge part of the foreign/noob experience.
Was BW attacked by Blizzard? Yes. Could it be seen as a push for SC2? Yes. Were Blizzard operating completely within legal grounds and within reason? Yes. You cannot argue that Blizzard did not have the right to be compensated for its IP rights, and to promote StarCraft 2. What killed BW more than anything was the matchfixing scandal. After that, new top-level players were few, and viewer numbers were decreasing. While the game's meta was still developing (one look at the Fantasy vs. JangBi finals and Fantasy vs. Flash on Ground Zero is sufficient to showcase this), it was still on its decline even without Blizzard's IP demands.
I have been keeping tabs on SC2 here and there. I would watch a VOD or series once every 6 months for the past few years, just to see how the game is progressing. I can honestly say that SC2 is around the same level of "demanding" as Brood War now, from my low-level point of view. I have been around Brood War for more than half of my life, and that helps me appreciate the value of SC2. However, It does have its flaws, as you said. That is to be expected of a game that was still "in development" for years, and will be for the foreseeable patch future. I don't want to go too far into it, but I think part of the problem lies in the way Blizzard has handled the patching of the game, and now the WCS system, but that's another discussion altogether.
Long story short, BW was a fortunate fluke in the world of RTS in terms of balance, longevity, and mainstream exposure through Korea. It created eSports, more or less. To say that SC2 caused RTS to lose momentum is a leap, to say the least. SC2 IS RTS for the majority of people out there. SC2 made RTS relevant when most of the non-Korean world had forgotten about it. I believe that even without SC2, BW would have experienced a steady decline either way, eclipsed by MOBA and other PC gaming genres.
TL;DR: Don't blame SC2, this is an unnecessary and divisive attitude in the community. SC2 is a great game; it's just the commonly held belief by BW fans, such as you and I, that it is still inferior the the supreme RTS which is BW. SC2 shouldn't be blamed or looked down upon. Instead, we should continue to support BW in a vacuum.
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On February 17 2016 06:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone Blizzard attacked Starcraft for money. But attention and momentum shifting to BW is good for Starcraft, because it is the better game. If people remember Starcraft as being SC2, with the lesser depth, micro, strategy and everything that SC2 lacks compared to BW and the flaws it has like huge volatility etc, that is bad for Starcraft and bad for RTS. Whether RTS must remain a niche genre from now on, or make a revival at some point in the future, the reference for it must be the best game, and that is BW. Furthermore, it is imaginable that RTS lost momentum because of SC2. First of all because BW was the #1 and it got attacked by Blizzard to make way for SC2. Secondly because SC2 doesn't bring a lot of new things on the table and was never as much fun even for casual players to play online. If SC2 had been the amazing game it should have been, RTS would likely be in a much better spot right now. Because it is not, the best thing we can hope for is that BW is recognized and looked at as the reference for RTS. In My Opinion.
Inside Korea SC2 may well have made RTS lose momentum. Outside of Korea though, you can't really lose momentum when you had pretty much none. I'd say it was the complete opposite: SC2 managed to cause a huge boost in interest for a while, but it didn't last that long...
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I understand your reply Jealous, but I don't feel the same way as you. I don't think SC2 did a lot of things right, and I definitely think it did a lot of things wrong. That includes the shit battle.net with killed chat, no lan-mode, killed custom games. I know a lot of people got into RTS with SC2 as it became big, but I think it has more to do with the amount of money injected into it (and its pro-scene) rather than it being a really good game. That's why, even though I respect people who play SC2 and have gotten into RTS with it, I don't have a lot of respect for the game itself and certainly not for the way the company conceived it and divided the community themselves. I think even if SC2 is not exactly a bad game, people who have played little of other RTS or BW may believe that SC2 is da best, but that's for lack of knowing or understanding what else exists, and that's allright. I don't think people who think BW is the best do so for nostalgia reasons, I don't feel that way myself, would have loved for SC2 to be better or as good as BW and I'd likely be playing that. But in the end, we don't really need a new game, we just need the best game as can be, and for now I think it indeed is BW.
edit : about how i said that SC2 may have caused loss of momentum, you guys are probably right, but I would ask this : what was really the state of foreign WC3 and Starcraft communities before SC2 came out ? I was in WCG in Cologne and there was a lot of passion for both games still at the time. That was 2008! The crowd was pretty big... lots of people were still playing online daily.
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On February 17 2016 06:38 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2016 06:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On February 16 2016 16:15 papaz wrote:Flash playing BW is great! Awesome that he is going to stream, glhf Flash hope you destroy some nerds on stream However this is terrible for Starcraft as such. For some reason SC2 wasn't the success we all wanted it to be. Some didn't like the mechanics (simplification), some the units, others the maps. Whatever the reason is I'm disappointed that Blizzard didn't at the very least gather all the pros to one game because as a spectator (I hardly play anymore) I love watching the pros and just seeing all the names in one tournament made me look forward to the weekend, getting some beer and pizza and watch starcraft all day. That hype is now gone Blizzard attacked Starcraft for money. But attention and momentum shifting to BW is good for Starcraft, because it is the better game. If people remember Starcraft as being SC2, with the lesser depth, micro, strategy and everything that SC2 lacks compared to BW and the flaws it has like huge volatility etc, that is bad for Starcraft and bad for RTS. Whether RTS must remain a niche genre from now on, or make a revival at some point in the future, the reference for it must be the best game, and that is BW. Furthermore, it is imaginable that RTS lost momentum because of SC2. First of all because BW was the #1 and it got attacked by Blizzard to make way for SC2. Secondly because SC2 doesn't bring a lot of new things on the table and was never as much fun even for casual players to play online. If SC2 had been the amazing game it should have been, RTS would likely be in a much better spot right now. Because it is not, the best thing we can hope for is that BW is recognized and looked at as the reference for RTS. In My Opinion. I don't think your attacks on SC2 are quite fair, to be honest. I'm the last person you'd expect to support SC2 in any way, shape, or form, but you can't put it down the way you did in this post. I agree that BW is the best RTS. However, not everyone shares that view, and that's largely due to nostalgia. There are still people out there who think that Total Annihilation, Age of Empires 2, C&C nameyourseriesnumber, or StarCraft 2 are the best game ever, and they aren't entirely wrong. Each game brings something to the table for a person to get hooked on and follow with zeal, just like we as BW fans have for BW. Every fanbase can bring up facts, figures, and opinions explaining why their game is the best, but I think ultimately it boils down to nostalgia factor for most adamant supporters. SC2 did a lot of things well. Casual play was one of them. Casual play in Brood War was limited to noob games and UMS, and of the latter there was variety but nowhere near the scope of SC2. SC2 has a vast variety of UMS games, and I do think the leagues (Gold, Silver, etc.) are a great way of catering to the casual player. In Brood War, even on rated servers like Fish and ICCup, you could enter a D rank game and get womped by a B rank player who made a smurf to cool off or to stomp on noobs. I played a Play/Obs Fighting Spirit on ICCup yesterday, my opponent was D 1v1 C 2v2, so probably not a total noob given the circumstances (despite the new ladder system), and I got demolished by cohesive Zerg play after doing a mildly-successful non-standard build, as if this player really knew his stuff. BWChart revealed his apm to be 341 in a 12+ minute game. This rarely happens in a tiered, account-locked game like SC2. SC2 also created more user-friendly/nerfed/dumbed-down, whatever you want to call them, controls. So, I would say that it caters to the casual way more than BW, especially given the prohibitively high level of play in 1v1 BW on any relevant server at the moment. SC2 also brought "terrible, terrible damage," English streams, foreign regional tournaments, etc., which are all a huge part of the foreign/noob experience. Was BW attacked by Blizzard? Yes. Could it be seen as a push for SC2? Yes. Were Blizzard operating completely within legal grounds and within reason? Yes. You cannot argue that Blizzard did not have the right to be compensated for its IP rights, and to promote StarCraft 2. What killed BW more than anything was the matchfixing scandal. After that, new top-level players were few, and viewer numbers were decreasing. While the game's meta was still developing (one look at the Fantasy vs. JangBi finals and Fantasy vs. Flash on Ground Zero is sufficient to showcase this), it was still on its decline even without Blizzard's IP demands. I have been keeping tabs on SC2 here and there. I would watch a VOD or series once every 6 months for the past few years, just to see how the game is progressing. I can honestly say that SC2 is around the same level of "demanding" as Brood War now, from my low-level point of view. I have been around Brood War for more than half of my life, and that helps me appreciate the value of SC2. However, It does have its flaws, as you said. That is to be expected of a game that was still "in development" for years, and will be for the foreseeable patch future. I don't want to go too far into it, but I think part of the problem lies in the way Blizzard has handled the patching of the game, and now the WCS system, but that's another discussion altogether. Long story short, BW was a fortunate fluke in the world of RTS in terms of balance, longevity, and mainstream exposure through Korea. It created eSports, more or less. To say that SC2 caused RTS to lose momentum is a leap, to say the least. SC2 IS RTS for the majority of people out there. SC2 made RTS relevant when most of the non-Korean world had forgotten about it. I believe that even without SC2, BW would have experienced a steady decline either way, eclipsed by MOBA and other PC gaming genres. TL;DR: Don't blame SC2, this is an unnecessary and divisive attitude in the community. SC2 is a great game; it's just the commonly held belief by BW fans, such as you and I, that it is still inferior the the supreme RTS which is BW. SC2 shouldn't be blamed or looked down upon. Instead, we should continue to support BW in a vacuum.
I think this kind of talk is bound to happen when the news post about the upcoming Brood War plans of Flash gets clogged with misinformation and sad sob stories about Starcraft 2. I really believe that well wishers of Starcraft 2 and Blizzard should search deep down within themselves if the news of former Brood War professionals streaming their game of choice somehow invokes whatever feeling they must feel to post about the future of "Starcraft" on this particular news post. Surely there must be other more urgent issues they must solve in order to regain whatever status Starcraft 2 held outside of Korea. The last place I would start a discussion about the future of Brood War would be on a forum for an entirely different game. Maybe the fault lies with the posters who deliberately start pouring their insecurities about their own favourite game in a post in which the topic of Starcraft 2 has zero relevance in. The response is bound to be candid and frank.
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Hollywood Fishiking approves.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o5La4HE.gif)
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So stoked, love BW streams
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EPT
