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On February 22 2007 20:51 Rayzorblade wrote:
So have you got much better since Testie has been coaching you?
Tasteless was my instructor, not Testie.
We hyper-focused on TvP primarily. I'll put it this way:
- My game-management, understanding, timing, & intuition improved quite a bit.
- My mechanics (macro, micro) are still below average.
I recognize that the latter variables are entirely dependent on practice. That said, I don't have much time to play seriously lately, and until I do it will be difficult to improve in that area.
At least now though my practice sessions will be more effective since I know exactly what I need to do, whereas before I'm sure I was merely reinforcing bad habits.
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No, unless I can become like Nada and make 600K USD every year in Korea.
It's just a game afterall.
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Only if Savior/Julyzerg would ZvP me, Nada/iloveoov would tvp me, and Stork/Bisu/Nal_ra/kingdom PvP over 40 games a day a piece.
If not, fuck that.
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Depends on who would train me ^_-v
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ToSsGirL could teach me... fee is... you know ^________^!!
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On February 22 2007 21:45 NubainMuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2007 20:34 DeadVessel wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? There are tons of small nuances on just 1 map let alone the hundreds of others. You play on the same field in football, the same plays are usually done, etc.
You have different building placement, build orders, etc. for SC. Very different from football. Timing is also not a factor in football. You have an allowed time you make your play in it, never fluctuates. You are so wrong it makes me cringe. An NFL offense has literally 100s of plays PER formation. There are probably 30-40 different formations in pro football. Each individual play has several audibles (or variations) ... at least 5-6. Each football team has a head coach, offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and then specialty coaches for each and every position. Each position's responsibility varies depending on the specific play, the formation and style of the opponent, opponent players moving into motion, etc. In addition, each player on the field is remarkably different (whereas a dragoon is always a dragoon, a hydralisk always a hydralisk, etc.). So it is the head coach's responsibility to craft the offense, defense, AND special teams in accordance to the team's relative strengths and weaknesses. Terrain IS an issue in football. It is not always the same field. Some fields are grass, some turf, some grass-turf. Dome stadiums differ remarkably from outdoor stadiums. In addition, the temperature and precipitation is variable unlike Starcraft. Imagine if there was rain or snow in Starcraft that causes certain units to malfunction? ;] Timing IS ABSOLUTELY a factor in football. Delayed snap-counts can draw the defense offsides. The team is pressured by the time-clock, and going over the play-clock results in a penalty. Time-outs must be used strategically to stop the clock. Running out of bounds stops the clock. Just like timing is important in executing a starcraft strategy, it is equally important when considering which plays to run. If you wish to compare the two activities fairly, lets put it this way: Football is the equivalent of a 100 man vs 100 man team melee! (if such a thing were possible)
Umm... in terms of things an individual player has to learn, Starcraft is infinitely more complex than football. You can argue about all these things such as precipitation or whatnot, but in the end, it's a very single-minded sport with a single goal. I think you're just making the sport seem overly complicated just for the sake of argument... The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy. Their burden is simply to do their part or play their role. Now if you wanted to compare COACHING a game of football to Starcraft, the comparison would be a little better overall, but even then, coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players. Of course Football in all aspects definitely has more variables to it simply because you're dealing with the real world and real human beings, but the burden of these things is spread out among so many different people that no single individual will really be dealing with anything too complex unlike in Starcraft where the individual playing bears the full burden of the entire game and all of its movements.
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umm prolly not i can just go to the strat section haha
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omg why didn't we think of that lol
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No, thats what Replays are for.
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Mexico1178 Posts
About a year ago, a korean friend of mine start coaching me for free... it help me a lot to improve my skill, so when i had money, i used to pay him about 50dlls a week... mayb im crazy, but he was using his time and effort on me... it is a shame that he went to mandatory service, but still i have his msn and talk to him...
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Yes, I would pay for a Korean pro, or even a foreign gosu like Legionnaire to help me with my Protoss.
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United States5262 Posts
Yes if it guarantees I move out of my D pithole and become a C+ player.
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I'll pay $2 an hour 5 hours a day 5 days a week to get trained by BoxeR
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On February 25 2007 16:46 itemlock wrote:
Umm... in terms of things an individual player has to learn, Starcraft is infinitely more complex than football. You can argue about all these things such as precipitation or whatnot, but in the end, it's a very single-minded sport with a single goal. I think you're just making the sport seem overly complicated just for the sake of argument... The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy. Their burden is simply to do their part or play their role. Now if you wanted to compare COACHING a game of football to Starcraft, the comparison would be a little better overall, but even then, coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players. Of course Football in all aspects definitely has more variables to it simply because you're dealing with the real world and real human beings, but the burden of these things is spread out among so many different people that no single individual will really be dealing with anything too complex unlike in Starcraft where the individual playing bears the full burden of the entire game and all of its movements.
I attempted to structure the comparison as follows: 1 Starcraft player vs 1 Head Football Coach.
Saying that the burden is spread out among the players is misleading. Its the equivalent of saying that the burden of playing Starcraft is spread out among the units. This is only partially true. The Starcraft units are somewhat independent, but they need to be given proper instructions, placed in the right place at the right time, and organized in such a way that their roles contribute to the total effort of the team.
- There are more plays in football than build orders.
- There are more audibles in football than there are variations in build orders.
- Each "team" is unequal in terms of talent. Consider 1 position: quarterback.
The Colts had a better quarterback than the Bears. Few would deny that.
In Starcraft, that would be the equivalent of anytime..[gm]'s dragoons having more hit points, a higher attack value, and more range than Nal_Ra's dragoons. Starcraft players always have the same units of equal strength, whereas in football this is never the case.
Not only does a coach have to utilize his players to their maximum value (i.e. micro in Starcraft), but hey has to take into account that some of the opposition's units will be stronger, others weaker, and tailor his game-plan according to that.
If you want to evaluate this fairly, playing Starcraft is the equivalent of a league consisting of 32 clones of 1 team. Imagine if each "team" had identical players. That would make the sport far more simple, and it would boil down purely to the coach's strategy, intellect, and execution.
The fact that the players are unequal in skill really complicates matters. Why else do you think coaches would have to invest so much time in studying game film, hiring investigators to "scout" the opponent, and study depth charts, rosters, etc.?
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Coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players.
Technically, neither do Starcraft players. The player right-clicks, taps A, taps P, whatever.
The unit ITSELF is doing the real work. NaDa isn't crawling inside every siege tank and operating the arclite cannon (or whatever the hell its called) himself.
Likewise, a football coach tells his players where to go, who to cover, where to blitz, etc.
Yet the actual player carries out the movement. Likewise, NaDa tells his tanks where to go, who to fire at, etc. but the tanks are doing the work. It would be a little bit different if the player actually had to click a special button for each tank shot, a different button for each vulture shot, etc.
The only appreciable difference is that the Starcraft player is using his hands to carry out the assignments, whereas the head coach is using his voice, headset, AND hands to speak, signal, gesture, etc.
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The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy.
The individuals players ARE burdened with strategy. In our analogy, you have a point since they are not calling the plays, just executing them. But in that execution, their performace IS highly strategic still.
Strategy is dependent on execution, and vice versa, so you really can't separate the two.
How a player controls his units ties into strategy just as much as the build order itself.
Likewise, HOW a defensive lineman carries out his assignment is highly important and must be tailored to his opposing offensive lineman. He can rip, he can swim, he can spin, he can bullrush, he can finesse. Likewise, the offensive lineman has multiple ways he can respond (such as cut block, jam at the line of scrimmage, fall back, etc.).
In a sense, as a Starcraft player, I AM NOT a strategist since personally I never invent my own build orders. Rather, I use somebody else's. So I am using another coach's plays, so to speak. However, I am carrying out somebody elses assignments, and this still involves strategy in the execution.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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yes if it was less than $5 / hr
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is awesome32282 Posts
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What I find interesting is that Nubian can see how American Football is a complex sport, but somehow refrains from understanding the universal implications of that concept.
EVERY game is complex in a certain set of parameters. Just because you don't know anything specific about tennis, it's fairly safe to assume it has all the depth in tactical and strategical considerations as any other game. The biggest problem comes when you are comparing games - in my opinion it's a moot point, because the challenge is really human - it is: how much can a human understand a system and beat someone else in it.
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EPT
