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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
Poll: Would you pay money to learn BW? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No Before anything ... this post is aimed at lesser skilled players. What I want to know is this: would you pay money to get tutored by better players at BW in order to improve? If you answer yes : about how much would you pay (What is the most you would pay to get tutored by a relatively well known and good BW player) ?? If you answer no : why not? Anyways, thank you in advance for your input  -Xeris | ||
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decafchicken
United States20019 Posts
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Pressure
7326 Posts
i'm a slow learner, might reconsider. | ||
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
Basically, if I were going to pay someone (especially a Brood War player) any kind of money I'd have to see some kind of "training outline" just to make sure they were serious & had a sound method of teaching. How much do other kinds of teachers get paid for this kind of thing -- like a tennis coach or something? | ||
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polarwolf
924 Posts
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CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11577 Posts
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
there are def. ppl who pay | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
No, it's not a joke. But I don't like taking some peoples money depending on their finances / country. But I have, and will again. | ||
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JensOfSweden
Cameroon1767 Posts
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Yogurt
United States4258 Posts
On February 22 2007 12:10 JensOfSweden wrote: I actually think alot of people would consider taking lessons from Mr Testicle hahahaha that is blatant slandering, and the bear WILL get you on topic: No, because if i just practiced normally, i know i can always use the strat and ask people etc its just that i dont practice enough thus i dont expect to get any better so i play DoTA more often | ||
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ATeddyBear
Canada2843 Posts
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
. Plus its funner when you auto-analize yourself and make a gamestyle of your own. | ||
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
I think certain things cant be taught, so unles they can garantee an improvement (which is kind of hard to measure) I wouldnt go for it. Youd be surprised to know some good players can put just little of their game understanding in words. Its like playing GO, you make moves that feels good or feels right at a given time. Though in Starcraft there is a reasonning (or should be!), its not easy to unravel its secrets. Specially when it comes to timing decision which come mostly from experience. I dont think timing and control can be taught as much. Certainly, they could show BOs, strats, like you find everywhere and you can do by yourself, anything deeper I dont think you can find anywhere, and no one can say for sure. Also, i play sc to be entertained. I dont plan to make a living out of it, and therefore its not a good investment... One might say that I do pay for swimming lessons, and tennis lessons even though I dont plan to make a living out of neither. I guess the main difference is the accessibility to courts and swimming pools, also free ranking to allow me to compete in this sports with people of my own level. However I think would be great to have SC free lessons :D PGT was starting the system where players ranked B and above could apply as a teacher, and players intersted would give their ICQ#/MSN. Shame it went down...  | ||
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FalliNinLove
Slovakia865 Posts
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Person514cs
1004 Posts
On February 22 2007 11:56 polarwolf wrote: yes if the tutor was sAviOr. Otherwise, HELL NO. | ||
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LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
OMG YES 100% $20 /hour at maximum though. And there had to be a translator | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
i mean in an imaginary world where for some reason a progamer like boxer, savior etc. wanted to train me in good english + knew how to teach + wanted a ridiculously low price ($1/hour, just making that up) then yes but since their time is probably worth more than i would want to spend (a valid assumption considering i wouldn't even want to teach someone for how much i would spend even if they were willing to pay me that) then no | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
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BalloonFight
United States2007 Posts
On February 22 2007 11:56 polarwolf wrote: yes if the tutor was sAviOr or tossgirl irl. Otherwise, HELL NO. Fixed. S2 | ||
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Hans-Titan
Denmark1711 Posts
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Person514cs
1004 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:12 IdrA wrote: you can get free[gm] to do it, supplement his 6k/year salary Then you have to get a translator | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
I guess stuff they could tell you that is difficult to pick up on your own is like analyzing in game situations and explaining thought processes that go with things in the game, for example, why they do the things they do ... etc. | ||
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Musli
Poland5130 Posts
I have no talent to SC. It would be a waste of money. | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:10 Sacajawea wrote: If you can't improve on your own, you have learning deficiency and need to go see a doctor. agreed. its not hard to go click on the strat forum. or download reps. plus the fact that if youre really not that good you cna join one of the 12383908 clans and bum off the better players. seriously, anyone whod consider spending money to get taught (spare a legit pro from korea, only if u had aspirations of doing the same) is probably someone who isnt to wise with their $$. | ||
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SonuvBob
Aiur21549 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:10 Sacajawea wrote: If you can't improve on your own, you have learning deficiency and need to go see a doctor. The idea is that you would improve much faster with a good teacher. That said, it doesn't seem practical (moneywise) in a 1 on 1 teaching situation. | ||
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
Almost every single gosu learnt by himself... There are exceptions tho (iloveoov) I still don't think its worth it because after a while you'd find yourself handing out HUGE sums of cash... | ||
Insane
United States4991 Posts
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BuGzlToOnl
United States5918 Posts
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Tarte
Canada933 Posts
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Seku
United States313 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
1. I actually cared about achieving something tangable with the game. 2. Somewhat wealthy myself & reasonable prices. 3. Person actually showed themselves capable of improving my play worthwhile to cost. None of which apply. | ||
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NokCha
Korea (South)410 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Second, in say other sports, the best coaches are rarely ever the best players. Along the same lines I cant imagine that the best bw players would be the best coaches (although in this case, such "best coaches" dont exist, so I guess the next in line would be the best players) | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:59 thedeadhaji wrote: I'd never pay. First, I probably don't care enough about bw that I'd want to give $ to improve. Second, in say other sports, the best coaches are rarely ever the best players. Along the same lines I cant imagine that the best bw players would be the best coaches (although in this case, such "best coaches" dont exist, so I guess the next in line would be the best players) yea, just because youre a good coach doesnt mean you were ever good at that sport/game whatever. coaching means you understand the game and can convey it. you just might lack the physical tools to be successful playing. | ||
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 22 2007 12:01 MyLostTemple wrote: I used to teach for money on paypal. there are def. ppl who pay I am one of Nick Plott's proud students (I hope he doesn't mind me saying so). =] I was very impressed with his approach. It wasn't as if he merely sat in my games, went afk, then offered me a few generic comments like "more macro" afterwards. He really took some time to pull me aside, explain the fundamentals, and outline in detail exactly what the top players do and why. As far as paying for lessons goes, here is the logic as far as I'm concerned: - We pay $$ for Broodwar because it is fun, no? - An increase in skill can potentially lead to better opponents, better games, and more opportunities within the community (clan wars, tournaments, showmatches, etc). - The aforementioned events make the game ... well ... more fun ^_^ - Hence, it is no different than originally paying for the game in the first place, at least in my mind. People are not critical of personal trainers, private music instructors, etc. Broodwar should be no different in my opinion. | ||
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IdiotWind
Canada321 Posts
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Silver
New Zealand378 Posts
even a highschool maths tutor gets like $20 per hour. unfortunately I barely have enough money to pay for food atm  | ||
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boghat
United States2109 Posts
edit: If you want quick improvement this is still pointless. The person who practiced rigorously for a year will still be much better than the person who took lesson from a pro for 6 months. There's really no point in improving fast so you might as well practice your ass off if you want to be good. | ||
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itemlock
United States256 Posts
When it comes to how much I'd actually pay, it would really depend on the type of instruction it is. The reason you can't really put an hourly rate on something like BW is simply because you have to divide a lesson into a game played, review of a replay, lecture on mistakes, a bit of practice on key points (maybe using UMS maps?), and then cover other things that a student might ask. All in all, it's generally a lot of stuff to cover and takes a lot of time. And you wouldn't improve by having 1 lesson a week either so consider this... If it were actual in-person instruction, I'd probably be willing to pay up to $10 depending on who it was that was teaching me. If it's an over-the-net type of instruction, then I'd probably set my limits at $5 and hour since I would imagine the lesson to be relatively lax and also the nature of the internet can be annoying at times (it would suck to lose lesson time to lag...) | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 22 2007 13:10 Sacajawea wrote: If you can't improve on your own, you have learning deficiency and need to go see a doctor. The best learning / improvement has always taken place within a community. Training in a vacuum will severely stunt your progress, regardless of the activity. The point of paying for lessons is to gain access to expertise that would normally not be available. Edit1: Its not a substitute for private practice or individual progress, but a supplement to ensure that THE METHOD of training remains effective. | ||
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Loveletter
United States543 Posts
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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siro)
Australia848 Posts
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Silver
New Zealand378 Posts
On February 22 2007 15:04 boghat wrote: If you have that much of a desire to be good that you'd pay money just practice 8-12 hours a day for awhile and I guarantee you'll be fucking unbelieveable as long as you practice in a good way and have at least average intelligent to comprehend strategies. Here's the secret to be as good as pro: practice 8 hours a day for 2 years like they all have, PRETTY SIMPLE. edit: If you want quick improvement this is still pointless. The person who practiced rigorously for a year will still be much better than the person who took lesson from a pro for 6 months. There's really no point in improving fast so you might as well practice your ass off if you want to be good. well, i remember an chess grandmaster once saying that 1 hour of focused teaching gives the same improvement in a students game as that student learning from playing for 1 year. ... but then, starcraft isn't chess. | ||
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BrutalMenace
United States1237 Posts
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Ganfei1
China667 Posts
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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decafchicken
United States20019 Posts
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bine
United States2352 Posts
I might consider something like that, but I couldn't afford like $100 a month in BW lessons. I'd do it because it would be fun, and because it would be fun to be better at BW. It's not so fun being sucky and losing all the time. | ||
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
If i could pay money, just to get better, like, buying liquid skill, I would do it. Otherwise, no. | ||
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
I would pay like 75 cents per game. Not because I want to learn(partialy true), but because I would never get an opportunity to play the best/extremely skilled. Playing a world's best a BO5 at the price under $4 isn't bad at all. Heck, if I'm satisfied, i throw in another 50 cents! | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
:D | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
Sometimes, I can feel that my game has gotten better just by thinking (image training?) about it. Of course, if we're talking about guaranteed improvement in skill, I might pay a four digit amount to become pro-level. But I'd assume that most others here would too | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
i'd pay 5$ to play in a ladder for a while but i doubt i'd pay an individual for coaching | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On February 22 2007 18:14 Heen wrote: I don't think BW is complex enough of a game to need teaching. That isn't to say that it's an easy game, just a game where practice and motivation makes perfect. Sometimes, I can feel that my game has gotten better just by thinking (image training?) about it. Of course, if we're talking about guaranteed improvement in skill, I might pay a four digit amount to become pro-level. But I'd assume that most others here would too lol not complex enough? you think tennis or football are more complex? | ||
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[angst]chraej
1445 Posts
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IdiotWind
Canada321 Posts
who would put up $10 to enter into a money sc tournament? Or a UMS tournament with a pool of some well known umses (basketball, scv football, nfl blitz, TMA, TMM) etc. | ||
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mlaoxve
Sweden165 Posts
and seriously its not often you can play against high level people in the starcrft community with them giving you valueable critique, id say it would speed up the learning process by shitloADS. but once you have reached a certain level in the game you dont really need somoene critique, just better and better practice partners. | ||
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[angst]chraej
1445 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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~Legit~
United States408 Posts
might have the ppl wrong | ||
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
imo of course. | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 22 2007 18:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: lol not complex enough? you think tennis or football are more complex? I can't speak for tennis but I know for a fact that American-Football is far more complex. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
On February 22 2007 17:51 Seraphim wrote: Look, If i could pay money, just to get better, like, buying liquid skill, I would do it. Otherwise, no. Yeah i agree with this guy. If i just payed $10 and magically got better at sc i'd do it, but paying someone bettter than you to give you advice doens't guarentee you'll improve at all. I'm sure it coudl work, but I don't i'd care enough to pay a coach. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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DeadVessel
United States6269 Posts
On February 22 2007 20:06 NubainMuscle wrote: I can't speak for tennis but I know for a fact that American-Football is far more complex. What the hell are you talking about? There are tons of small nuances on just 1 map let alone the hundreds of others. You play on the same field in football, the same plays are usually done, etc. You have different building placement, build orders, etc. for SC. Very different from football. Timing is also not a factor in football. You have an allowed time you make your play in it, never fluctuates. You are so wrong it makes me cringe. | ||
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
On February 22 2007 20:06 NubainMuscle wrote: I can't speak for tennis but I know for a fact that American-Football is far more complex. So have you got much better since Testie has been coaching you? | ||
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Rayzorblade
United States1172 Posts
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SeBASTa
China1147 Posts
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x_woof_x
United States659 Posts
i would give my right arm for lessons | ||
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
On February 22 2007 18:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: lol not complex enough? you think tennis or football are more complex? No offense, but it's an insult to compare BW to tennis or football. Starcraft is considered a reflex-strategy game. That is true to an extent, however, that doesn't mean it's comparable to tennis or pure mind games such as chess and baduk/go. I'm not trying to discredit progamers. It just seems to me you're trying to make a point by using the wrong analogy. | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 22 2007 20:34 DeadVessel wrote: What the hell are you talking about? There are tons of small nuances on just 1 map let alone the hundreds of others. You play on the same field in football, the same plays are usually done, etc. You have different building placement, build orders, etc. for SC. Very different from football. Timing is also not a factor in football. You have an allowed time you make your play in it, never fluctuates. You are so wrong it makes me cringe. An NFL offense has literally 100s of plays PER formation. There are probably 30-40 different formations in pro football. Each individual play has several audibles (or variations) ... at least 5-6. Each football team has a head coach, offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and then specialty coaches for each and every position. Each position's responsibility varies depending on the specific play, the formation and style of the opponent, opponent players moving into motion, etc. In addition, each player on the field is remarkably different (whereas a dragoon is always a dragoon, a hydralisk always a hydralisk, etc.). So it is the head coach's responsibility to craft the offense, defense, AND special teams in accordance to the team's relative strengths and weaknesses. Terrain IS an issue in football. It is not always the same field. Some fields are grass, some turf, some grass-turf. Dome stadiums differ remarkably from outdoor stadiums. In addition, the temperature and precipitation is variable unlike Starcraft. Imagine if there was rain or snow in Starcraft that causes certain units to malfunction? ;] Timing IS ABSOLUTELY a factor in football. Delayed snap-counts can draw the defense offsides. The team is pressured by the time-clock, and going over the play-clock results in a penalty. Time-outs must be used strategically to stop the clock. Running out of bounds stops the clock. Just like timing is important in executing a starcraft strategy, it is equally important when considering which plays to run. If you wish to compare the two activities fairly, lets put it this way: Football is the equivalent of a 100 man vs 100 man team melee! (if such a thing were possible) | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 22 2007 20:51 Rayzorblade wrote: So have you got much better since Testie has been coaching you? Tasteless was my instructor, not Testie. We hyper-focused on TvP primarily. I'll put it this way: - My game-management, understanding, timing, & intuition improved quite a bit. - My mechanics (macro, micro) are still below average. I recognize that the latter variables are entirely dependent on practice. That said, I don't have much time to play seriously lately, and until I do it will be difficult to improve in that area. At least now though my practice sessions will be more effective since I know exactly what I need to do, whereas before I'm sure I was merely reinforcing bad habits. | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
It's just a game afterall. | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
If not, fuck that. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
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itemlock
United States256 Posts
On February 22 2007 21:45 NubainMuscle wrote: An NFL offense has literally 100s of plays PER formation. There are probably 30-40 different formations in pro football. Each individual play has several audibles (or variations) ... at least 5-6. Each football team has a head coach, offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator, and then specialty coaches for each and every position. Each position's responsibility varies depending on the specific play, the formation and style of the opponent, opponent players moving into motion, etc. In addition, each player on the field is remarkably different (whereas a dragoon is always a dragoon, a hydralisk always a hydralisk, etc.). So it is the head coach's responsibility to craft the offense, defense, AND special teams in accordance to the team's relative strengths and weaknesses. Terrain IS an issue in football. It is not always the same field. Some fields are grass, some turf, some grass-turf. Dome stadiums differ remarkably from outdoor stadiums. In addition, the temperature and precipitation is variable unlike Starcraft. Imagine if there was rain or snow in Starcraft that causes certain units to malfunction? ;] Timing IS ABSOLUTELY a factor in football. Delayed snap-counts can draw the defense offsides. The team is pressured by the time-clock, and going over the play-clock results in a penalty. Time-outs must be used strategically to stop the clock. Running out of bounds stops the clock. Just like timing is important in executing a starcraft strategy, it is equally important when considering which plays to run. If you wish to compare the two activities fairly, lets put it this way: Football is the equivalent of a 100 man vs 100 man team melee! (if such a thing were possible) Umm... in terms of things an individual player has to learn, Starcraft is infinitely more complex than football. You can argue about all these things such as precipitation or whatnot, but in the end, it's a very single-minded sport with a single goal. I think you're just making the sport seem overly complicated just for the sake of argument... The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy. Their burden is simply to do their part or play their role. Now if you wanted to compare COACHING a game of football to Starcraft, the comparison would be a little better overall, but even then, coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players. Of course Football in all aspects definitely has more variables to it simply because you're dealing with the real world and real human beings, but the burden of these things is spread out among so many different people that no single individual will really be dealing with anything too complex unlike in Starcraft where the individual playing bears the full burden of the entire game and all of its movements. | ||
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J_RIGGED
United States10 Posts
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Ender
United States294 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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zXk3
Mexico1178 Posts
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ssjevot
United States66 Posts
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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XCetron
5226 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On February 25 2007 16:46 itemlock wrote: Umm... in terms of things an individual player has to learn, Starcraft is infinitely more complex than football. You can argue about all these things such as precipitation or whatnot, but in the end, it's a very single-minded sport with a single goal. I think you're just making the sport seem overly complicated just for the sake of argument... The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy. Their burden is simply to do their part or play their role. Now if you wanted to compare COACHING a game of football to Starcraft, the comparison would be a little better overall, but even then, coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players. Of course Football in all aspects definitely has more variables to it simply because you're dealing with the real world and real human beings, but the burden of these things is spread out among so many different people that no single individual will really be dealing with anything too complex unlike in Starcraft where the individual playing bears the full burden of the entire game and all of its movements. I attempted to structure the comparison as follows: 1 Starcraft player vs 1 Head Football Coach. Saying that the burden is spread out among the players is misleading. Its the equivalent of saying that the burden of playing Starcraft is spread out among the units. This is only partially true. The Starcraft units are somewhat independent, but they need to be given proper instructions, placed in the right place at the right time, and organized in such a way that their roles contribute to the total effort of the team. - There are more plays in football than build orders. - There are more audibles in football than there are variations in build orders. - Each "team" is unequal in terms of talent. Consider 1 position: quarterback. The Colts had a better quarterback than the Bears. Few would deny that. In Starcraft, that would be the equivalent of anytime..[gm]'s dragoons having more hit points, a higher attack value, and more range than Nal_Ra's dragoons. Starcraft players always have the same units of equal strength, whereas in football this is never the case. Not only does a coach have to utilize his players to their maximum value (i.e. micro in Starcraft), but hey has to take into account that some of the opposition's units will be stronger, others weaker, and tailor his game-plan according to that. If you want to evaluate this fairly, playing Starcraft is the equivalent of a league consisting of 32 clones of 1 team. Imagine if each "team" had identical players. That would make the sport far more simple, and it would boil down purely to the coach's strategy, intellect, and execution. The fact that the players are unequal in skill really complicates matters. Why else do you think coaches would have to invest so much time in studying game film, hiring investigators to "scout" the opponent, and study depth charts, rosters, etc.? | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
Coaches are not reacting in real time and controlling the individual movements of all of their players. Technically, neither do Starcraft players. The player right-clicks, taps A, taps P, whatever. The unit ITSELF is doing the real work. NaDa isn't crawling inside every siege tank and operating the arclite cannon (or whatever the hell its called) himself. Likewise, a football coach tells his players where to go, who to cover, where to blitz, etc. Yet the actual player carries out the movement. Likewise, NaDa tells his tanks where to go, who to fire at, etc. but the tanks are doing the work. It would be a little bit different if the player actually had to click a special button for each tank shot, a different button for each vulture shot, etc. The only appreciable difference is that the Starcraft player is using his hands to carry out the assignments, whereas the head coach is using his voice, headset, AND hands to speak, signal, gesture, etc. | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
The individual players are a bit of a non-factor in this particular argument simply because they are not burdened with strategy. The individuals players ARE burdened with strategy. In our analogy, you have a point since they are not calling the plays, just executing them. But in that execution, their performace IS highly strategic still. Strategy is dependent on execution, and vice versa, so you really can't separate the two. How a player controls his units ties into strategy just as much as the build order itself. Likewise, HOW a defensive lineman carries out his assignment is highly important and must be tailored to his opposing offensive lineman. He can rip, he can swim, he can spin, he can bullrush, he can finesse. Likewise, the offensive lineman has multiple ways he can respond (such as cut block, jam at the line of scrimmage, fall back, etc.). In a sense, as a Starcraft player, I AM NOT a strategist since personally I never invent my own build orders. Rather, I use somebody else's. So I am using another coach's plays, so to speak. However, I am carrying out somebody elses assignments, and this still involves strategy in the execution. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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fruitdrink
Malaysia66 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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seedcapital
United States72 Posts
EVERY game is complex in a certain set of parameters. Just because you don't know anything specific about tennis, it's fairly safe to assume it has all the depth in tactical and strategical considerations as any other game. The biggest problem comes when you are comparing games - in my opinion it's a moot point, because the challenge is really human - it is: how much can a human understand a system and beat someone else in it. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
u keep saying Coaches must control their players by telling them what to do. its not like that. they practice the movements on training and the coach doesnt have to yell "number 2 run right, number 35 run left", he just says the codename of the action. Once the players learn the strategy, the coach isnt that busy. While in SC, u can learn a BO, u can learn micro u can learn macro - but every single game, u have to do it urself over and over again. No normal sport can EVER compare to SC when it comes to Complexity. | ||
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