On December 03 2014 02:15 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
I hope the OGN invovlement means that we will get a dedicated and active mapmaking team again. A lot of the balance discussion at this point is completely moot since many matchups have become heavily map dependent. For a real revival of the scene there will need to be an incentive for talented mapmakers to return to BW.

They can just replay the map pool from 2008-2009 Proleague, by which I mean every map should just be Destination 1.1

miercat

394 Posts

December 03 2014 06:55 GMT

#1724

On December 03 2014 04:58 Stratos wrote:
Balance must be perfect >
Balance can be achieved by maps >
Balance is achieved by maps >
Game is fun >
Look for alternative solutions >
wat

The balance discussion is moot, only through lack of perspective:

1) The Korean commentators/players themselves have acknowledged significant imbalances in certain matchups (most notably - ZvT) - not solely dependent on mapmaking.

2)They specifically distinguish between the concept of "balance", and "map making"(implication: the latter is inherently limited in comparison to the former).

3) They specifically state that they are forced to use mapmaking to "balance" matchups, only because they do not have the ability to balance through changing the fundamental elements of the game(only Blizzard can do this).

On November 05 2014 18:55 prech wrote:
Just saw this subbed OGN video posted in another TL forum:

Basically about ~10 minutes discussion of SC BW imbalance, particularly ZvT at the time patch 1.08 came out. Old schooler (Z)

GoRush discussed how he tried Terran at times, while (T)

Flash talks about considering a switch to Zerg in the midst of his struggles. Not particularly in-depth, but perhaps of interest

From a probabilistic logical perspective, it is highly unlikely that the perfect patch occurred over 10 years ago, when there was no knowledge of what modern play would look like(and when modern play is so different). And in fact, this is not the case: Yes mapmaking does address some balance concerns(with regards to statistics and otherwise), to some extent, but it does not address more fundamental imbalances which persist in a more general state(e.g. gameplay, and otherwise). There are fundamental balance optimizations (patches) that would improve the quality of gameplay overall, with or without accompanying changes in mapmaking(or necessarily, statistical references).

konadora

Singapore66359 Posts

December 03 2014 07:23 GMT

#1725

i don't think any game can be considered "balanced" solely based on units alone because there are so many factors to consider, such as:
- individual micro skills
- terrain
- map (or specifically, map and resource layout/distribution)
- better understanding of units and matchups and "counters"

the units never changed but the meta changed, how?
- maps that encouraged mid-late games
- better understanding and utilisation of units

the start of maps like andromeda, fighting spirit, tornado, colosseum, destination encouraged more late game scenarios and macro games, because going greedy wasn't as punishable as earlier maps like say, requiem and hitchhiker. eventually maps started converging to a general 4 player map that allowed macro games to happen, which is also what i believe to be the start of loss of interest in brood war, combined with flash just destroying everyone left right and center.

there was also better understanding of the strengths that the players of each race could utilise, such as the 1 fact cc build evolving to a more greedy yet not as risky build that is the 1 rax cc. savior popularized the 3rd base hatch into wall-in defend into 4 hatch zerg build on tornado vs pusan (if i rmb correctly, it was against pusan). gateway into expo evolved into the forge wall-in fe at natural. zergs started understanding that queens could be useful in any matchup, except it got too micro-intensive and at times not as rewarding, thus that "queen" meta era dissolved after a while.

maps had a huge role in this evolution, and the only reason why i believe there could have been any in the first place despite years of no balance patches. to ignore or discredit maps as being the primary reason for the balance changes is being blind to the truth.

icystorage

Jollibee19350 Posts

December 03 2014 07:25 GMT

#1726

what map was it again where it's mostly ZvZ in proleague due to the proximity of the starts? it was a 1v1 map

BLinD-RawR

ALLEYCAT BLUES50864 Posts

December 03 2014 07:30 GMT

#1727

On December 03 2014 16:25 icystorage wrote:
what map was it again where it's mostly ZvZ in proleague due to the proximity of the starts? it was a 1v1 map

Battle Royal?

icystorage

Jollibee19350 Posts

December 03 2014 07:31 GMT

#1728

Ah yeah that's the one. Kona's post reminds me of that map and how maps shape the 'meta'

konadora

Singapore66359 Posts

December 03 2014 07:42 GMT

#1729

battle royale still one of the most underperforming maps imo

i think if they played it now, it could be pretty balanced

konadora

Singapore66359 Posts

December 03 2014 08:15 GMT

#1730

and tbh i think circuit breaker, jade and electric circuit kind of killed the map hype :v such uninspiring maps..

gngfn

United States1726 Posts

December 03 2014 08:23 GMT

#1731

I always thought that they should have embraced one-matchup maps. There were always a couple of maps every season anyway that ended up being almost entirely single-matchup and still produced good games. Geometry comes to mind, for example. Adding three maps each season understood by the mappers to be biased towards one race might have made those matchups more interesting (since we could have had island maps again, for example, which leads to a different style of TvT) and also produced some incredible hype on the rare occasion some team sent out a player of a different race with some crazy snipe build.

BLinD-RawR

ALLEYCAT BLUES50864 Posts

December 03 2014 08:32 GMT

#1732

On December 03 2014 17:15 konadora wrote:
and tbh i think circuit breaker, jade and electric circuit kind of killed the map hype :v such uninspiring maps..

Triathlon and Vendetta, best maps ever.

Boonbag

France3318 Posts

December 03 2014 08:55 GMT

#1733

wh o are these people bombing bw general with shitty sc2 balance stuff

Iplaythings

Denmark9110 Posts

December 03 2014 09:22 GMT

#1734

I have a special place in my hear for destination.

even though I've been cheesed too many times, I love it.

Boonbag

France3318 Posts

December 03 2014 09:29 GMT

#1735

thats like the map i hate the most on earth

kogeT

Poland2042 Posts

December 03 2014 09:30 GMT

#1736

Why you've removed my JD interview topic.

For those of you that missed it, JD said that "If I would be playing Brood War I would obviously have better results and have more fun". :-)

Boonbag

France3318 Posts

December 03 2014 09:31 GMT

#1737

when was this interview conducted ?

c3rberUs

Japan11286 Posts

December 03 2014 11:11 GMT

#1738

Nah, I think Electric Circuit was quite good. Its maps like Ground Zero, Circuit Breakers, Neo Jade and maybe Empire of the Sun or Sniper Ridge that killed hype.