On December 02 2014 02:32 Yuyan wrote: [Serious Discussion]
...What if we purposed the idea to further "patch" brood war? However, my interpretation of patching, or updating is not of the conventional sense, because brood war in the eyes of any is a perfect and masterful piece of strategic balance, so changing the core game structure would not make any sense.
I'm not sure everyone would agree that BW has "perfect" balance.
Some might, but others would say the balance is merely good, not perfect.
reaching balanced winning ratio's of 51/52/53% on matchups by progamers in some maps... uuh wait what merely good sure dude sure
Ppl here have told me it's more like 55/45 or more overall. Many ppl seem to agree that T>Z>P>T is a thing, they just disagree as to what extent.
And of course, it's not only about racial balance... for instance, there's a lot of units that are almost never used, some strats that almost never get used, and some matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket. T in TvP is almost always about tank-vulture, for instance.
I don't even remember what scouts look like, ditto ghosts, DAs, devourers, queens, etc. etc. I'm sure most ppl here can identify of at least one thing balance-related that bothers them.
Btw, 'good' is a compliment. It just falls short of 'perfect', that's all.
pfffff you dont make alot of sense.. but okay when you discuss balance perfection it really does not matter how people ''feel'' concerning the 55/45 these stats appear on lower tier of play so they are irrelevant when it comes to making a accurate judgement about the balance of the game.. if somebody doesnt use a unit or race to its potential than balance will not help you..
also ''matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket'' again that is a good thing thats because people are playing towards the potential of race a result of a balanced game and actually all the units you are naming have a legit roll in the late game and are actually used more often in (late-games only) also this usually appears more often on expert levels
broodwar does always leave room for creative play but thats a giiven
god that '' T>Z>P>T'' is really some brainless stuff stubborn beginners line imo
I would say that what "doesn't make a lot of sense" is to maintain that balance (an extremely complicated aspect of any RTS... even Blizzard got it pretty wrong prior to patching) is "perfect". *Nothing* is perfect, obviously.
Now, if you want to say BW is closer to it than most any other RTS, I would agree. Still isn't perfect, though.
Stats like 55/45 win rates (or 60/40, or worse) aren't just non-pros playing, you too can go into the TLPD and see the stats for yourself... even you qualified yourself by saying that "some maps" are very close in win percentage, because it's exactly that, 'some' maps. Some aren't, even some fairly popular ones. Is that just due to imbalanced maps alone, or does racial/unit balance contribute and/or make it extremely hard to make a truly 'balanced' map? Tough to say, but I wouldn't just smugly assume the game is 'perfect'. Why would anyone? Balance is extremely tricky to get right, much less perfect, look at the poor SC2 designers pulling their hair out, LOL.
This conversation is just 'deja vu all over again' to me. I remember back when SC first got released, and ppl complained about balance right off the bat. We were on patch 1.01, and there were automatically two camps, the complainers and the ones who insisted that the game was "perfect as is" and for 'all the noobs to just STFU'.
Then patch 1.04 came out, and changed a great many things (for the better). Whoops. So much for 'perfect as is'. That camp of ppl were reduced to whining that Blizzard had "given into the whiners" and "ruined the game". God knows what they thought when 1.08 came out.
The game has evolved and gotten better and better... and yeah, 1.08 made things even more refined still. But if the game has evolved through something like 100 separate balance changes (and that is just about the true number), why would anyone assume that it couldn't be refined further?
A better argument to make would be that it's a moot point, since outside of a "20th Anniversary Edition" re-release or somesuch, which is quite a longshot, why would Blizzard bother doing further refinement? Maybe not even then.
as said before any minor race ''imbalances'' can be dealt with by adjusting the maps.it is something the proscene coaches/players/casters./kespa referees have agreed upon years ago everybody knows this the discussion on balancing starcraft has stopped years ago simply because the game is balanced after the last patches
Oh, so *now* it's balanced perfectly? People said that before and after EVERY patch that had balance changes:
1.02: "Oh yeah, NOW it's balanced perfectly... don't change anything ELSE, stfu and stop whining!"
Blizzard: Nope.
1.04: "Oh yeah, NOW it's balanced perfectly... don't change anything ELSE, stfu and stop whining!"
Blizzard: Nope.
1.05: "Oh yeah, NOW it's balanced perfectly... don't change anything ELSE, stfu and stop whining!"
Blizzard: Nope.
1.08: "Oh yeah, NOW it's balanced perfectly... don't change anything ELSE, stfu and stop whining!"
Blizzard: It's been three years of balance changes, good enough. We have other things to do.
What's hard to see about this pattern? Why would one assume that THIS time, it's different/the game is incapable of being refined any further? Heck, the gameplay itself has evolved since the 1.08 patch – released 13 years ago– so at least some of the assumptions/data that went into making that patch are likely off nowadays.
Far as maps fixing any and all imbalances, I dunno, many otherwise good maps aren't balanced, i.e. it's hard. It would also only address racial imbalance, and not some of the other matters I brought up.
you are bringing up a debate of casual gamers and personal feelings on balance, just like the casual sc2 gamers that are yelling imba all-the time this might be helpful for the first few rough balancing patches of the game after that it becomes needless
It really isn't... you can see for yourself that many maps aren't balanced from their results in pro-level play... the TLPD is good as a data point, as I mentioned. You seem to be saying that it's all good because a few maps do have balanced results, but you don't seem to be asking yourself why it's only a few maps that are that way.
Is it because 1) competent map design is hard(?), 2) racial imbalance is still significant enough that it's hard for good map design to eliminate it(?), or 3) some combination of 1) and 2)?
That you aren't even asking yourself those questions or raising them is a bit odd. Why are you assuming that everything is peachy just because "it's all good on Fighting Spirit, man, so there can't possibly be any problemo or anything that could be improved." That doesn't seem to address why so many other maps aren't balanced in terms of their pro results.
of course its a broad discussion its a game with many users everybody has an opinion but you fail to see that if you want to make a accurate judgement on balance of the game you will need to do this with progamers and coaches who play the same matchup for 200 games a day on the same map than you can really tell if there is an issue with balancing the map or not.
When Blizzard did their balance patches, I'm sure they talked to progamers. I'm also sure they talked to and took into account what the gaming community said too. Why? Because 99.999% of the ppl who play and buy the game aren't progamers. Would it serve matters to balance for only the top 0.001%, and not worry about anyone else?
Yes, we're all aware that you can't balance the game for n00bs, because n00bs don't really know the game and do stupid crazy random sh!t that can't be accounted for. But hypothetically speaking, a game that was balanced *only* for paid pros but which was poorly balanced for the broad swath of millions of intermediate-to-advanced players probably wouldn't do well. I don't think BW is like that, I'm just saying that you have to consider matters beyond just programers, for better or worse. I'm also not sure that BW is balanced at the pro level, considering that same T>Z>P>T pattern is seen in pro results on a lot of maps (again, the TLPD).
Hmm... long discussion over you taking offense to me characterizing BW balance as 'good' instead of 'perfect', eh?
Re patch bw: although i could theorize a couple very specific things to change units that i could support (eg queen energy mostly), I'd go ahead and leave it. I could support changes like having money "spent" at build structure command like sc2 (so my scv goes to build a depot, i macro as he walks, and he doesnt sit there with 98 minerals because of a vulture queued up while the scv walked), or letting minerals be displayed on minimap from start of game (so that it would look like entire map revealed with tab'd minimap for the start of the game).
On July 25 2014 12:36 Probemicro wrote: I have a feeling Stork would be the next big name player to quit and make the switch to afreeca
he has only said negative things about afreeca, I don't think he will
was it because of sponsor + team pressure to say that, or his personal thoughts? I'm just stating this because of the iloveoov comments
he was against afreeca streaming if it was just for the sole purpose of making money, not if they do want to entertain the fanbase. he didn't say he would not ever play sc1 again in the future.
i still it probably depends on what happen for LotV, if it actually finally fixes the issues of SC2 (which i highly doubt would happen as long as DK/browder still in charge)) or remains mediocre (mah free/1 dimensional hard counter units lolol XDDD).
i feel that if everything remain status quo even after lotv sc2 will just fade into small niche obscurity in a few years that mostly foreigners play and everyone like stork,flash,rain ,bogus would just retire by then, not even bothering to afreeca stream since they would have probably forgotten about sc1 after so long....
i kinda feel the same way but on the other hand they have ''the money train'' blizzard pumping everything in and with another freaking expansion 3 on the way it will take years before the bubble will burst
On July 25 2014 12:36 Probemicro wrote: I have a feeling Stork would be the next big name player to quit and make the switch to afreeca
he has only said negative things about afreeca, I don't think he will
was it because of sponsor + team pressure to say that, or his personal thoughts? I'm just stating this because of the iloveoov comments
he was against afreeca streaming if it was just for the sole purpose of making money, not if they do want to entertain the fanbase. he didn't say he would not ever play sc1 again in the future.
i still it probably depends on what happen for LotV, if it actually finally fixes the issues of SC2 (which i highly doubt would happen as long as DK/browder still in charge)) or remains mediocre (mah free/1 dimensional hard counter units lolol XDDD).
i feel that if everything remain status quo even after lotv sc2 will just fade into small niche obscurity in a few years that mostly foreigners play and everyone like stork,flash,rain ,bogus would just retire by then, not even bothering to afreeca stream since they would have probably forgotten about sc1 after so long....
i kinda feel the same way but on the other hand they have ''the money train'' blizzard pumping everything in and with another freaking expansion 3 on the way it will take years before the bubble will burst
Hmm, personally I'm quite optimistic in this regard. The afreeca ex-pros, who yet didn't go, will eventually start disappearing into the military one by one and as (if) sc2 slowly dies out in Korea, the scene could be a good source of great players. Many will probably want to get a side job and just get to do shit before going into the military. Afreeca will hopefully still be there to provide this for them and the BW scene would benefit from this as well. Who's gonna pay them to stream sc2?
I hope the OGN invovlement means that we will get a dedicated and active mapmaking team again. A lot of the balance discussion at this point is completely moot since many matchups have become heavily map dependent. For a real revival of the scene there will need to be an incentive for talented mapmakers to return to BW.
On December 02 2014 23:26 broodwar2.0 wrote: okaay mister you make so much sense here good luck with youre battle on the good balance of starcraft but not ''perfect' excellent topic'
As I said before, it's a moot point at this stage... Bliz ain't doin' nothing more on that front, ever, 99.99% for sure. So we were debating purely for entertainment purposes.
One last Q: Do you honestly believe that the balance is 'perfect'? Excellent? Very good? You literally can't think of even one thing that you'd change? Hmm.
On December 02 2014 23:26 broodwar2.0 wrote: okaay mister you make so much sense here good luck with youre battle on the good balance of starcraft but not ''perfect' excellent topic'
As I said before, it's a moot point at this stage... Bliz ain't doin' nothing more on that front, ever, 99.99% for sure. So we were debating purely for entertainment purposes.
One last Q: Do you honestly believe that the balance is 'perfect'? Excellent? Very good? You literally can't think of even one thing that you'd change? Hmm.
Lolman ofc is imbalanced, this storm is imba reaver is imba sair also imba,terran siege tank is ok but the hell after +3 attack is also imba,imo marines need get +3 pob,this cheap bio is so imba... Zlso add consume to queens and maybe infestor?
On December 02 2014 23:26 broodwar2.0 wrote: okaay mister you make so much sense here good luck with youre battle on the good balance of starcraft but not ''perfect' excellent topic'
As I said before, it's a moot point at this stage... Bliz ain't doin' nothing more on that front, ever, 99.99% for sure. So we were debating purely for entertainment purposes.
One last Q: Do you honestly believe that the balance is 'perfect'? Excellent? Very good? You literally can't think of even one thing that you'd change? Hmm.
Lolman ofc is imbalanced, this storm is imba reaver is imba sair also imba,terran siege tank is ok but the hell after +3 attack is also imba,imo marines need get +3 pob,this cheap bio is so imba... Zlso add consume to queens and maybe infestor?
On December 02 2014 23:26 broodwar2.0 wrote: okaay mister you make so much sense here good luck with youre battle on the good balance of starcraft but not ''perfect' excellent topic'
As I said before, it's a moot point at this stage... Bliz ain't doin' nothing more on that front, ever, 99.99% for sure. So we were debating purely for entertainment purposes.
One last Q: Do you honestly believe that the balance is 'perfect'? Excellent? Very good? You literally can't think of even one thing that you'd change? Hmm.
Lolman ofc is imbalanced, this storm is imba reaver is imba sair also imba,terran siege tank is ok but the hell after +3 attack is also imba,imo marines need get +3 pob,this cheap bio is so imba... Zlso add consume to queens and maybe infestor?
EPT
good luck with youre battle on the good balance of starcraft but not ''perfect' excellent topic' ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X6SuUtX.png)
I thought FlashTwitch.tv was a good continuation joke!![[image loading]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SxWH5HNEf0Y/hqdefault.jpg)
