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On December 02 2014 09:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:02 Probemicro wrote:Fighting Spirit at the highest level Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%) ZvP: 134-117 (53.4%) PvT: 143-137 (51.1%) Theres a reason why people still play this map today ad-nauseum, its proven to be the most balanced map there is. its probably closest there is to perfect balance (though you can still argue about close spawns or game being different at low level but stats don't lie) blizzard's genius balance strategy HAHAHA. blizzard fanbois plz. A poster with only 2 posts coming here to give such a post? I think its obvious a troll. go back to your casual sc2. It's almost like you didn't understand what he wrote at all, maybe you should learn to read? casually ofc 
i understand it perfectly, maybe you like to recognize that his opinion is pretty much laughable (balancing BW after 15-16 years? pfft)
and invalid in the grand scheme of things. and maybe offer your own comment or thoughts instead of that snide 4chan esque quip.
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On December 02 2014 09:14 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 02 2014 09:02 Probemicro wrote:Fighting Spirit at the highest level Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%) ZvP: 134-117 (53.4%) PvT: 143-137 (51.1%) Theres a reason why people still play this map today ad-nauseum, its proven to be the most balanced map there is. its probably closest there is to perfect balance (though you can still argue about close spawns or game being different at low level but stats don't lie) blizzard's genius balance strategy HAHAHA. blizzard fanbois plz. A poster with only 2 posts coming here to give such a post? I think its obvious a troll. go back to your casual sc2. It's almost like you didn't understand what he wrote at all, maybe you should learn to read? casually ofc i understand it perfectly, maybe you like to recognize that his opinion is pretty much laughable (balancing BW after 15-16 years? pfft) and invalid in the grand scheme of things. and maybe offer your own comment or thoughts instead of that snide 4chan esque quip.
Why is it laughable? Cause BW "is perfect"? No it isn't, nothing is.
But whatever, he probably chose the wrong place to discuss something like that
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On December 02 2014 07:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 07:11 broodwar2.0 wrote:On December 02 2014 07:06 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 02 2014 02:32 Yuyan wrote:
[Serious Discussion]
...What if we purposed the idea to further "patch" brood war? However, my interpretation of patching, or updating is not of the conventional sense, because brood war in the eyes of any is a perfect and masterful piece of strategic balance, so changing the core game structure would not make any sense.
I'm not sure everyone would agree that BW has "perfect" balance. Some might, but others would say the balance is merely good, not perfect. reaching balanced winning ratio's of 51/52/53% on matchups by progamers in some maps... uuh wait what merely good sure dude sure Ppl here have told me it's more like 55/45 or more overall. Many ppl seem to agree that T>Z>P>T is a thing, they just disagree as to what extent. And of course, it's not only about racial balance... for instance, there's a lot of units that are almost never used, some strats that almost never get used, and some matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket. T in TvP is almost always about tank-vulture, for instance. I don't even remember what scouts look like, ditto ghosts, DAs, devourers, queens, etc. etc. I'm sure most ppl here can identify of at least one thing balance-related that bothers them. Btw, 'good' is a compliment. It just falls short of 'perfect', that's all.
pfffff you dont make alot of sense.. but okay when you discuss balance perfection it really does not matter how people ''feel'' concerning the 55/45 these stats appear on lower tier of play so they are irrelevant when it comes to making a accurate judgement about the balance of the game.. if somebody doesnt use a unit or race to its potential than balance will not help you..
also ''matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket'' again that is a good thing thats because people are playing towards the potential of race a result of a balanced game and actually all the units you are naming have a legit roll in the late game and are actually used more often in (late-games only) also this usually appears more often on expert levels
broodwar does always leave room for creative play but thats a giiven
god that '' T>Z>P>T'' is really some brainless stuff stubborn beginners line imo
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On December 02 2014 09:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:14 Probemicro wrote:On December 02 2014 09:10 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 02 2014 09:02 Probemicro wrote:Fighting Spirit at the highest level Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%) ZvP: 134-117 (53.4%) PvT: 143-137 (51.1%) Theres a reason why people still play this map today ad-nauseum, its proven to be the most balanced map there is. its probably closest there is to perfect balance (though you can still argue about close spawns or game being different at low level but stats don't lie) blizzard's genius balance strategy HAHAHA. blizzard fanbois plz. A poster with only 2 posts coming here to give such a post? I think its obvious a troll. go back to your casual sc2. It's almost like you didn't understand what he wrote at all, maybe you should learn to read? casually ofc i understand it perfectly, maybe you like to recognize that his opinion is pretty much laughable (balancing BW after 15-16 years? pfft) and invalid in the grand scheme of things. and maybe offer your own comment or thoughts instead of that snide 4chan esque quip. Why is it laughable? Cause BW "is perfect"? No it isn't, nothing is. But whatever, he probably chose the wrong place to discuss something like that
obvious didnt read what I put, maybe i will just put it here for you AGAIN sigh.
"btw the current brood war revival is more or less centralized within korea. do you think the koreans would even care about what some sc2 poster tinkering game balance, the same koreans who have lived and breathed BW unlike you?"
yeah i mention about BW being perfect in this post. wowww
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I read it, but it just makes no difference really.
His post is about changing BW to make it even better/more fun/whatever.
Is it even possible without destroying the "perfect" balance (implying blizzard had the master plan) or was it the community all along (with maps), so you maybe could add content?
You then insult him for being a "sc2 casual"; yeah makes perfect sense mate.
So you imply koreans wouldn't want extra stuff in bw (cause it is perfect? oh shit), yeah whatever man, sometimes people here are ridiculous.
Don't expect me to reply to you anymore though, reading "a story about pylons" will 100% be more fun and rewarding than arguing with you.
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On December 02 2014 09:21 broodwar2.0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 07:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 02 2014 07:11 broodwar2.0 wrote:On December 02 2014 07:06 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 02 2014 02:32 Yuyan wrote:
[Serious Discussion]
...What if we purposed the idea to further "patch" brood war? However, my interpretation of patching, or updating is not of the conventional sense, because brood war in the eyes of any is a perfect and masterful piece of strategic balance, so changing the core game structure would not make any sense.
I'm not sure everyone would agree that BW has "perfect" balance. Some might, but others would say the balance is merely good, not perfect. reaching balanced winning ratio's of 51/52/53% on matchups by progamers in some maps... uuh wait what merely good sure dude sure Ppl here have told me it's more like 55/45 or more overall. Many ppl seem to agree that T>Z>P>T is a thing, they just disagree as to what extent. And of course, it's not only about racial balance... for instance, there's a lot of units that are almost never used, some strats that almost never get used, and some matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket. T in TvP is almost always about tank-vulture, for instance. I don't even remember what scouts look like, ditto ghosts, DAs, devourers, queens, etc. etc. I'm sure most ppl here can identify of at least one thing balance-related that bothers them. Btw, 'good' is a compliment. It just falls short of 'perfect', that's all. pfffff you dont make alot of sense.. but okay when you discuss balance perfection it really does not matter how people ''feel'' concerning the 55/45 these stats appear on lower tier of play so they are irrelevant when it comes to making a accurate judgement about the balance of the game.. if somebody doesnt use a unit or race to its potential than balance will not help you.. also ''matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket'' again that is a good thing thats because people are playing towards the potential of race a result of a balanced game and actually all the units you are naming have a legit roll in the late game and are actually used more often in (late-games only) also this usually appears more often on expert levels broodwar does always leave room for creative play but thats a giiven god that '' T>Z>P>T'' is really some brainless stuff stubborn beginners line imo
I would say that what "doesn't make a lot of sense" is to maintain that balance (an extremely complicated aspect of any RTS... even Blizzard got it pretty wrong prior to patching) is "perfect". *Nothing* is perfect, obviously.
Now, if you want to say BW is closer to it than most any other RTS, I would agree. Still isn't perfect, though.
Stats like 55/45 win rates (or 60/40, or worse) aren't just non-pros playing, you too can go into the TLPD and see the stats for yourself... even you qualified yourself by saying that "some maps" are very close in win percentage, because it's exactly that, 'some' maps. Some aren't, even some fairly popular ones. Is that just due to imbalanced maps alone, or does racial/unit balance contribute and/or make it extremely hard to make a truly 'balanced' map? Tough to say, but I wouldn't just smugly assume the game is 'perfect'. Why would anyone? Balance is extremely tricky to get right, much less perfect, look at the poor SC2 designers pulling their hair out, LOL.
This conversation is just 'deja vu all over again' to me. I remember back when SC first got released, and ppl complained about balance right off the bat. We were on patch 1.01, and there were automatically two camps, the complainers and the ones who insisted that the game was "perfect as is" and for 'all the noobs to just STFU'.
Then patch 1.04 came out, and changed a great many things (for the better). Whoops. So much for 'perfect as is'. That camp of ppl were reduced to whining that Blizzard had "given into the whiners" and "ruined the game". God knows what they thought when 1.08 came out.
The game has evolved and gotten better and better... and yeah, 1.08 made things even more refined still. But if the game has evolved through something like 100 separate balance changes (and that is just about the true number), why would anyone assume that it couldn't be refined further?
A better argument to make would be that it's a moot point, since outside of a "20th Anniversary Edition" re-release or somesuch, which is quite a longshot, why would Blizzard bother doing further refinement? Maybe not even then.
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I don't like the idea of Blizz making a BW patch one bit. I try to somewhat keep up with the evolution of mainstream games and SC2 and I do not like the direction they're heading at all. The modern game developer works in an entirely different mindset.
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haha last time blizz had anything to do with bw it basically murdered it
so no plz no blizzard bs anymore ty
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On December 02 2014 19:19 Boonbag wrote:
haha last time blizz had anything to do with bw it basically murdered it
so no plz no blizzard bs anymore ty
+1
well we won't have to worry about that anyway, their focus now is more on getting the casual $ with hearthstone, heroes and that new overwatch game.
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On December 02 2014 10:16 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 09:21 broodwar2.0 wrote:On December 02 2014 07:46 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 02 2014 07:11 broodwar2.0 wrote:On December 02 2014 07:06 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 02 2014 02:32 Yuyan wrote:
[Serious Discussion]
...What if we purposed the idea to further "patch" brood war? However, my interpretation of patching, or updating is not of the conventional sense, because brood war in the eyes of any is a perfect and masterful piece of strategic balance, so changing the core game structure would not make any sense.
I'm not sure everyone would agree that BW has "perfect" balance. Some might, but others would say the balance is merely good, not perfect. reaching balanced winning ratio's of 51/52/53% on matchups by progamers in some maps... uuh wait what merely good sure dude sure Ppl here have told me it's more like 55/45 or more overall. Many ppl seem to agree that T>Z>P>T is a thing, they just disagree as to what extent. And of course, it's not only about racial balance... for instance, there's a lot of units that are almost never used, some strats that almost never get used, and some matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket. T in TvP is almost always about tank-vulture, for instance. I don't even remember what scouts look like, ditto ghosts, DAs, devourers, queens, etc. etc. I'm sure most ppl here can identify of at least one thing balance-related that bothers them. Btw, 'good' is a compliment. It just falls short of 'perfect', that's all. pfffff you dont make alot of sense.. but okay when you discuss balance perfection it really does not matter how people ''feel'' concerning the 55/45 these stats appear on lower tier of play so they are irrelevant when it comes to making a accurate judgement about the balance of the game.. if somebody doesnt use a unit or race to its potential than balance will not help you.. also ''matchups that seem caught in a straightjacket'' again that is a good thing thats because people are playing towards the potential of race a result of a balanced game and actually all the units you are naming have a legit roll in the late game and are actually used more often in (late-games only) also this usually appears more often on expert levels broodwar does always leave room for creative play but thats a giiven god that '' T>Z>P>T'' is really some brainless stuff stubborn beginners line imo I would say that what "doesn't make a lot of sense" is to maintain that balance (an extremely complicated aspect of any RTS... even Blizzard got it pretty wrong prior to patching) is "perfect". *Nothing* is perfect, obviously. Now, if you want to say BW is closer to it than most any other RTS, I would agree. Still isn't perfect, though. Stats like 55/45 win rates (or 60/40, or worse) aren't just non-pros playing, you too can go into the TLPD and see the stats for yourself... even you qualified yourself by saying that "some maps" are very close in win percentage, because it's exactly that, 'some' maps. Some aren't, even some fairly popular ones. Is that just due to imbalanced maps alone, or does racial/unit balance contribute and/or make it extremely hard to make a truly 'balanced' map? Tough to say, but I wouldn't just smugly assume the game is 'perfect'. Why would anyone? Balance is extremely tricky to get right, much less perfect, look at the poor SC2 designers pulling their hair out, LOL. This conversation is just 'deja vu all over again' to me. I remember back when SC first got released, and ppl complained about balance right off the bat. We were on patch 1.01, and there were automatically two camps, the complainers and the ones who insisted that the game was "perfect as is" and for 'all the noobs to just STFU'. Then patch 1.04 came out, and changed a great many things (for the better). Whoops. So much for 'perfect as is'. That camp of ppl were reduced to whining that Blizzard had "given into the whiners" and "ruined the game". God knows what they thought when 1.08 came out. The game has evolved and gotten better and better... and yeah, 1.08 made things even more refined still. But if the game has evolved through something like 100 separate balance changes (and that is just about the true number), why would anyone assume that it couldn't be refined further? A better argument to make would be that it's a moot point, since outside of a "20th Anniversary Edition" re-release or somesuch, which is quite a longshot, why would Blizzard bother doing further refinement? Maybe not even then.
as said before any minor race ''imbalances'' can be dealt with by adjusting the maps.it is something the proscene coaches/players/casters./kespa referees have agreed upon years ago everybody knows this the discussion on balancing starcraft has stopped years ago simply because the game is balanced after the last patches
what does that even mean from ''good'' to 'perfect'' get a grip you are discussing something that nobody has even a clue wtf ure talking about how would u make something ''perfect' if at the highest levels ratios of 51 are achieved there is no change needed otherwise the korean-proscene would have made that pretty clear years ago
you are bringing up a debate of casual gamers and personal feelings on balance, just like the casual sc2 gamers that are yelling imba all-the time this might be helpful for the first few rough balancing patches of the game after that it becomes needless
ofcourse its a broad discussion its a game with many users everybody has an opinion but you fail to see that if you want to make a accurate judgement on balance of the game you will need to do this with progamers and coaches who play the same matchup for 200 games a day on the same map than you can really tell if there is an issue with balancing the map or not.
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you don't refine bw it's bw that refines you
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konadora
Singapore66145 Posts
On December 02 2014 20:06 Boonbag wrote:
you don't refine bw it's bw that refines you
that is deep man
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On December 01 2014 18:08 Probemicro wrote:THE G will be taking on fengzi tomorrow in another COSL showmatch 2 Dec 2014 8pm GMT+8 Guemchi v Fengzi BO5 maps :Soul_of_Fighter_1.3;Electric_Circuit_1.0Jade_2.0.scx;MatchPoint_1.3；CircuitBreakers_1. prize winner:400 RMB loser :100 RMB stream address: http://kan.sina.com.cn/u/2446697112VOD after match: http://i.youku.com/chinaosl
fengzi leading 2-1 to guemchi after 3 hatch hydra, and a ling runby
EDIT: 2-2 now, fengzi still struggling to handle harass and toss army midgame
EDIT2: THE G wins 3-2 after cannonrushing fengzi's nat. fengzi suicides his dozen of slow lings into the 2 cannon into gg
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On December 02 2014 21:39 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 20:06 Boonbag wrote:
you don't refine bw it's bw that refines you that is deep man
would you deny bisu as beeing the most refined beeing on earth ?
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Bisutopia19208 Posts
I've waited 3 years to see this.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X6SuUtX.png)
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Bisutopia19208 Posts
On December 02 2014 20:06 Boonbag wrote:
you don't refine bw it's bw that refines you
Terran slander!
ftfy!
you don't assimilate bw it's bw that assimilates you
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On December 02 2014 22:20 BisuDagger wrote:I've waited 3 years to see this.
i thought seeing bisu finally stream BW is the deal for you?
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I love sonic and very interested to at least buy a shoe from him but I have yet to see a good design/color/whathaveyou shoe
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Bisutopia19208 Posts
On December 02 2014 22:21 Probemicro wrote:i thought seeing bisu finally stream BW is the deal for you?
It was a big deal to see Bisu stream, but this is also huge. I'm allowed be excited about more then one thing!!! :D
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On December 02 2014 22:31 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2014 22:21 Probemicro wrote:On December 02 2014 22:20 BisuDagger wrote:I've waited 3 years to see this. i thought seeing bisu finally stream BW is the deal for you? It was a big deal to see Bisu stream, but this is also huge. I'm allowed be excited about more then one thing!!! :D
we just got started, this ain't even the big boys, the starleagues 
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EPT
