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With so many games going on in broodwar between really good players and ex-pros.
How do you view the balance of tvz?
Myself see it as terran favored, especially in the midgame. If terran can get in a good position, i feel zerg sometimes are chanceless.
Its almost as if zerg is struggling to get into a good position till it has 3base saturation going with the heavy tech.
I havent watched that many games of tvz, this is just my first impression.
Would like to hear other opinions here, especially from the very experienced bw-fanatics and those who have watched many games recently... There are really LOTS of games out there, better than we ever could hope for i guess.
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On September 03 2014 19:44 Foxxan wrote:
With so many games going on in broodwar between really good players and ex-pros.
How do you view the balance of tvz?
Myself see it as terran favored, especially in the midgame. If terran can get in a good position, i feel zerg sometimes are chanceless.
Its almost as if zerg is struggling to get into a good position till it has 3base saturation going with the heavy tech.
I havent watched that many games of tvz, this is just my first impression.
Would like to hear other opinions here, especially from the very experienced bw-fanatics and those who have watched many games recently... There are really LOTS of games out there, better than we ever could hope for i guess.
And people would say the same thing about PvZ being Z favored if Bisu did not exist and wasn't destroying Z on a daily basis on his stream.
Modesty was showing excellently how to play the ZvT match-up a while back, using superior mutalisk pressure and unique timings like Guardian/Devourer and fast Ultra aggression. Hell, even Killer's early ling aggression can flat out put a Terran player far behind these days.
The problem is that there are not a lot of SoSPA Zergs who specializes in ZvT (maybe Modesty but he keeps running into the TvZ king PianO all the time :x) and all the top SoSPA Terran have above average TvZ. And people like hero and ZerO all play standard macro builds 3 hatch into lurkers into 4th into defilers; you just can't do that every day against people like Sea sSak Mind and PianO. When Zergs do mix it up, like that LoveTV showmatch between hero and PianO, hero actually managed to win 3-1 against PianO. Hell, Larva even showed some creativity against Mong in that Sonic Supermatch and he even beat arguably a superior player.
Hopefully the new faces in LSL3 can help raise the standards and evolve the match-up further.
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TLADT24920 Posts
I feel that it's in favour of Terran now. I mean, just take a look at most of the current Zergs in the scene. Sea, Mind, PianO, sSak etc... all of them are capable of beating the current top Zerg, Killer. To be blunt, Killer, hero, ZerO etc... all have rather bad ZvT when compared to the other matchups as well. I can't really explain it but I believe part of the reason is due to how good Terran players are with their control and multitasking. Of course, that doesn't mean that Zergs can't win since we've seen players like Modesty and Killer take games and series before but that's my thoughts in a nutshell.
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On September 03 2014 19:44 Foxxan wrote:
With so many games going on in broodwar between really good players and ex-pros.
How do you view the balance of tvz?
Myself see it as terran favored, especially in the midgame. If terran can get in a good position, i feel zerg sometimes are chanceless.
Its almost as if zerg is struggling to get into a good position till it has 3base saturation going with the heavy tech.
I havent watched that many games of tvz, this is just my first impression.
Would like to hear other opinions here, especially from the very experienced bw-fanatics and those who have watched many games recently... There are really LOTS of games out there, better than we ever could hope for i guess.
Basically you are correct. Early game, Terran has superior flexibility and opportunity to kill the Zerg outright (which has more or less been the status quo for many years).
However, the strategic development of the mid-game mech switch (and Zerg's typical inability to punish this potential timing), has presented additional problems: The Zerg has great difficulty in effectively combating a maxed late game Terran mech army(with mines etc.). As Sayle mentioned in one of his ZvT casts:[it's not even a matter of execution, it's a matter of what can the Zerg even execute?]
i.e. Even with good execution, the majority of Zergs will still typically lose in these situations (due to lack of effective strategic/tactical options).
As for balance, these are the statistics on the most played map currently, and what was regarded as the most balanced map ever:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sospa/maps/237_Fighting Spirit
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
the zerg are just bad and should stop crying )
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is scan now unbanned from tl?
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Well, it's not really a recent trend. Even in the Kespa era, Zergs who were highly skilled in general, and had high winrates in other matchups typically had significantly worse results in ZvT. Very few (maybe 1?) Zergs were ZvT specialists + Show Spoiler +http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/189_YellOw%5BArnC%5D
Conversely the majority of Terran players had good TvZ records, even if suffering in other matchups(or in overall skill - e.g. it's been stated that older Boxer could have remained a TvZ sniper even though unlikely to win in other matchups due to decreased skill). The overall ZvT trend has little to do with specific players, or their skill level.
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I wish the streaming ex-pros would play something besides Fighting Spirit these days. It's getting a little dry 
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United States1434 Posts
I think zergs need to use the Broodling ability from Queens more to combat the mass siege tanks. That's just me theory crafting though. The power of mech is so painful to look to You see zergs like zero who were maxed with 3000/3000k lose to a mech transitioning Terran after being up by nearly double the supply of the Terran player. Going against mech the zergs always just do this constant overwhelming strategy where they try to overrun the Terran but I feel like Zerg can play the cost efficient game even better than the Terran with a more varied amount of spellcasters and spells.
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On September 04 2014 16:18 Ty2 wrote:
I think zergs need to use the Broodling ability from Queens more to combat the mass siege tanks. That's just me theory crafting though. The power of mech is so painful to look to You see zergs like zero who were maxed with 3000/3000k lose to a mech transitioning Terran after being up by nearly double the supply of the Terran player. Going against mech the zergs always just do this constant overwhelming strategy where they try to overrun the Terran but I feel like Zerg can play the cost efficient game even better than the Terran with a more varied amount of spellcasters and spells.
Spawn Brooding is still used in the very late game, but Plague itself versus tanks are very effective too.
I would like to see some more Overlord+Defiler combos versus Terran mech play, overlord drops aren't only use offensively, sometime it can even save your drones from pesky Vulture runbys too.
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funny people say ZvT is in favour of T, T is so strong,OP etc
yet not many foreigners select T as their race compared to the ubiquitous Z. cos muh space aliens are cool.
And with their bias just complain about what Terran can do to them based on general solid mechanical play of Terran Korean players which few foreigners can match up to. I wish more would acknowledge the strength of being able to maintain a great macro style, rather than just whining tanks OP
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On September 04 2014 17:49 Probemicro wrote:
funny people say ZvT is in favour of T, T is so strong,OP etc
yet not many foreigners select T as their race compared to the ubiquitous Z. cos muh space aliens are cool.
And with their bias just complain about what Terran can do to them based on general solid mechanical play of Terran Korean players which few foreigners can match up to. I wish more would acknowledge the strength of being able to maintain a great macro style, rather than just whining tanks OP
Actually, the reason Terran are very strong TvZ is likely related to why there are also very few Terrans. It's because TvP is very unintuitive compared to TvZ, and TvT is very exhausting and difficult. So although 1/3 of the matchups is the most fun in the game, the other 2 are frequently perceived to be harsh (even if they're fun). Going from TvZ to TvP can feel like off-racing sometimes, especially during times when mech was unpopular TvZ. Furthermore, it's not much of a shock that so many Z offrace TvZ because of a dislike for the style of ZvZ, which can also feel very different from the usual way to play ZvT and ZvP. (edit: in other words, Terran focus on TvZ the most).
I feel the actual game is extremely fair, but player personalities can determine balance a lot. I also feel that some of the professional styles are more difficult to imitate than others, and that this is especially the case for TvP. Marine medic vessel firebat and some tanks are strong no matter what your level, but tank vulture vs protoss is very dependent on map understanding and strong timings and just knowing when you're allowed to move out and when you aren't.
At the same time, the professional style of ZvT is also quite difficult to imitate. But there are some easier styles which will punish most Terrans. The problem is everyone wants to play the 'best' style, and blame game balance when they can't execute a very difficult strategy. Foreigners became rather uncreative in the over the last 6 years.
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I always thought that Zerg seems to have stagnated as a race, they don't come up with near as much innovative play as Terran. Since 2009 Terran have come up with so many new ideas; late game mech transitions, factory openings, Valkonic builds. But Zerg hasn't seemed to develop at all, they still play almost identically (3 Hatch Mutas into 3rd base and Lurkers, UltraLingDefiler lategame, rarely some Queen play). 2 Hatch Mutas seems to have died. Of course we see some reactionary play to mech with Hydralisks/Mutalisks, but that's about it.
Feels like Zerg have ran out of ideas in ZvT.
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On September 04 2014 16:11 Gruntt wrote:I wish the streaming ex-pros would play something besides Fighting Spirit these days. It's getting a little dry
Players have no incentive to use new maps unless the tournaments use them. I think some sort of modification through maps could really help the TvZ match up while keeping the other ones relatively even. I don't know what, but I'm sure there could be something if we look at Z favoured maps over the years.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 05 2014 23:58 Espers wrote:
I always thought that Zerg seems to have stagnated as a race, they don't come up with near as much innovative play as Terran. Since 2009 Terran have come up with so many new ideas; late game mech transitions, factory openings, Valkonic builds. But Zerg hasn't seemed to develop at all, they still play almost identically (3 Hatch Mutas into 3rd base and Lurkers, UltraLingDefiler lategame, rarely some Queen play). 2 Hatch Mutas seems to have died. Of course we see some reactionary play to mech with Hydralisks/Mutalisks, but that's about it.
Feels like Zerg have ran out of ideas in ZvT.
There is the 3 hatch lurkers though if scouted, it's easy to defend with bunkers+tanks so I doubt it's popular amond pros. Mostly on ladder.
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Any idea when the BW:OH-esque tournament that we got promised will release, I'd really like to see it soon as it's more likely that some of the Reunion guys participate if we do.
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i think sayle said it should start like one week ago 
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Can anybody tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do in D level TvP?
It's just retarded. Every player, upon seeing that I'm Terran, instantly switches to Protoss, regardless of his main race. Then, we play a game where every single time it's 20 minutes of me trying not to die to Dark Templar/Reaver drop/bulldog attack/fast Arbiter/fast Carrier bullshit. If (and that's a big if) I'm able to survive that, he's usually already is 2 saturated bases ahead and Vulture harass can't do shit because 2 Cannons and Pylon walls at each expo shut down every attempt.
Also, huge army pushes. Because Terran units die when farted upon, I have to click myself to death lying mines, sieging up tanks and EMPing or sniping his casters and then maybe, MAYBE I do stand a chance in a straight up engagement, providing he doesn't mine drag me or counterattack elsewhere to abuse his superior army mobility. I don't know if there's a point of playing this on; recently, I tried to use P for the first time in my life on ladder and went Forge FE against Terran because he switched race from Zerg at the last second and I didn't notice. I've won that game handily anyway...
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On September 07 2014 02:55 wingpawn wrote:
Can anybody tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do in D level TvP?
It's just retarded. Every player, upon seeing that I'm Terran, instantly switches to Protoss, regardless of his main race. Then, we play a game where every single time it's 20 minutes of me trying not to die to Dark Templar/Reaver drop/bulldog attack/fast Arbiter/fast Carrier bullshit. If (and that's a big if) I'm able to survive that, he's usually already is 2 saturated bases ahead and Vulture harass can't do shit because 2 Cannons and Pylon walls at each expo shut down every attempt.
Also, huge army pushes. Because Terran units die when farted upon, I have to click myself to death lying mines, sieging up tanks and EMPing or sniping his casters and then maybe, MAYBE I do stand a chance in a straight up engagement, providing he doesn't mine drag me or counterattack elsewhere to abuse his superior army mobility. I don't know if there's a point of playing this on; recently, I tried to use P for the first time in my life on ladder and went Forge FE against Terran because he switched race from Zerg at the last second and I didn't notice. I've won that game handily anyway...
play greedy, take an early 3rd with mines holding it then 2-1 attack
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Why would you give someone who struggles with early game pressure the advice to play greedy?
A replay would help to know where your biggest problem is. From your post it seems like you mostly lose in the early game, so I would just advise to play a siege expand with wall-in and turrets. If he was aggressive and you hold it without much losses I would recommend for beginners to just go 2 base 6 factory and slow push to protoss base with turrets. The best opportunity to win in TvP is to kill Protoss before he has higher tech units. For late game TvP you have to be either better than your opponent or have a huge advantage from earlier stages.
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EPT
