On February 08 2026 03:48 Kraekkling wrote: I've written this for the other thread, but the discussion on this derailed the OP, so imma post it here instead.
----- re: progamer mechanics during kespa and now
An interesting question is whether practice adds up over the years which leads to improvement, and how much this compares to the decay caused by physical factors.
In the realm of physical sports, it's pretty clear that there's a peak age, due to things like max VO2 in the blood and other physiological markers. For fps shooters, there's reflexes which peak at some young age. (there's probably studies on this somewhere)
I wonder what parallels exist to musicians. As far as I know musical ability is not considered to decay before musicians get quite old? Playing an instrument is a "mechanics-heavy" task. I'm sure everyone who played both BW and an instrument in a serious way would consider it to be far more mechanically demanding, compared to BW. Please correct me if that's not the case.
If someone has played the piano from age 14 to 18 for eight hours every day, they're probably pretty good at piano at age 18. What happens if the person plays for 20 more years, for four hours every day - at age 38, is the person better at the piano or worse, compared to age 18?
What are the physical factors relevant for BW and how are they affected by age?
Generally virtuoso musicians become better with age until like 50, in same rare cases even nearing 60s. If they take proper care of themselves and keep consistently practicing, even at lower volumes, they keep improving. But their improvement isnt just in the technical aspect. They improve on their musical vocabulary, theory, and application of theory more than on their technical ability. As they get older technical ability improvements become marginal, but that is also a side effect of already being near peak technicality at some point. The decay of physical factors in virtuosos isn't much noticed until around 60 and beyond, unless they suffer playing related injuries that can limit their endurance in playing at a higher technical level.
Same applies to SC if you ask me. In SC specifically the physical capability aspect is WAY OVERSTATED by some fans and even players. There are so many god tier mechanical players who lack the knowledge, the theory, the insight, and the application of theory in all situation to succeed, bar a minority of situations where just mechanical ability with some theory is enough. Just doing a build order slightly wrong is enough to lose. overspending a bit too much on a unit you dont actually need or cant use anymore is enough to lose. Units in wrong location? misread a fight? mastering application of Theory + a minimum of mechanical skill > >> lot of mechanical skill and some application of theory.
This is most noticable when you see the pros stream their POV for Proleague or for ASL. They will freak out over someone using theory to gain positional advantages, make optimization adjustments, punish suboptimal choices by their opponents, and etc. rarely do they freak out over micro or mechanical plays. Soulkey and FlaSh are great examples in this. Neither FlaSh or Soulkey have the best mechanical ability. But their knowledge and understanding of Broodwar theory and how to USE that in all situations is what makes them so strong. For example month after Flash came back he was in a TvZ vs Soulkey on 5 spawn vs 7 spawn. He recognized the situation allowed Soulkey to do a timed all in, but FlaSh was denied scouting information to confirm it or even see it. But FlaSh built a bunker. The other terrans thought FlaSh had correctlt read the situation and countered the all in with the bunker. But Flash actually said he would always build the bunker in certain situations because the 100 minerals for the bunker in the build order he was already doing would not slow anything else down. So he figured he could always build the bunker and be safe against that specific all in regardless of any situation the game is in. Nobody ever thought of that until FlaSh pointed it out, and it completelt countered an entire zerg all in option Soulkey had been abusing against other terrans. All because they thought the math didnt work, but Flash proved them you could exactly fit the bunker into the build order and still have all the math work out.
Other good examples are Hyuk, Speed, ZeloT and Soo. Hyuk has insane mechanical ability, maybe the most insane, but he loses more than ANY other pro zerg. In ZvT his mutalisk micro and ability to press macro cycles INBETWEEN attack clicks and retreat clicks is unrivaled. He can supress any terran bio ball and harass perfectly. But he then makes too many mutalisks, and mutalisks lose effectiveness when valks comes out, the bio grows, upgrades finish, vessels get radiate, etc. The zerg can not afford to overspend because they NEED to prepare the counter to what terran is making to deal with the mutalisks. So Hyuk is the one player who more than anyone else loses very shortly after Mutalisks become less effective and he has to transition to lurker and sunken defense to get consume and dark swarm up. He fails with getting lurkers on time too often. He gets consume too late. He doesnt have the sunkens yet. etc. He dies because of incorrect application of theory.
Speed was similar. Speed has been the best mechanical terran since 2020 but was at the time known as 10minute flash. He played godly but focused entirely on early and mid game, and then just could not transition into late properly and he would generally lose. He was well optimized and used theory correctly up until 10-15 minutes. But once he corrected his theory application and switched to build optimizations and a playstyle that does allow him to play post 15 minutes, he has become an absolute monster. But it wasnt his mechanical skill that brought him that success. It was the correct application of theory.
I think RJB makes a great point. But I keep thinking about this:
To a certain point mechanics are still really important. Calm , stork, nada, etc are all really smart players but their multitasking and control just isn't up to par any more (stork plays really good for like 1-2 months a year though it seems like haha). Some players seem to get afflicted by age-related slowdown more than others.
^So is it age or disinterest, or disinterest (aka shifted priorities) because of age?
I'm a huge piano and BW fan and I believe that what it takes to excell in either requires something very similar. The only thing that's really different between BW and playing an instrument is reaction time. All the other shit can be learned to excell in, and when you're still young you obviously learn faster, but if you never stop learning... Experience and mastery can easily outperform execution speed and quick reflexes.
Rhythm is important in music, as it is in micro. Knowing your scales in music, is like knowing how to do your macro cycles. Knowing all the notes of pieces is like knowing your build orders. Knowing chords is like knowing tech trees. Bad posture aka bad technique and not enough rest can easily cause long-term injury in both professions. Playing an instrument and playing BW both require lots of practice just to maintain your base skill level. If you stop practicing, just like in progaming, your proficiency will start hurting. Stork/Calm are prime excample of this. The other side of the coin is that you cannot be productive 40 hours a week, but at least 3 hours a day should be doable and mandatory if you seek to improve and keep your skills honed. Also psychology is both present in music and BW. In music it helps you play with others, in BW it should help you predict your opponent's next move. Much of that comes naturally with experience.
The reason why pros used to retire mid 20s isn't because they stopped learning (as quickly), it's because they would either burn out from unreal practice hours and/or had to worry about future life. One can play video games only for so many years before reality starts hitting. What about getting your own house and family? What about a financially stable future?
but where the comparison/metaphor falls short is that you have to react quickly and make decisions against another person not just executing a song or collaborating together with other musicians
mistakes in music in live performances can be common, but good musicians don’t let it affect how the audience enjoys the performance
mistakes, and consistent errors from slower reaction times against someone who is thinking and inputting faster than you results in losing games
I don't doubt that lack of motivation is a big part of why some players lose their skill as they get older. That's just a fact. I also think though that age does physically slow down some player's hand speed and multitasking, and some more than others (probably due to a lot of factors that peeano mentioned).
To be honest, Stork's decline is overstated. Stork didn't decline much if at all. His issue is he stopped growing where others did keep growing. He's in the same state as he was 6 years ago, and as he was almost 10 years ago. It is good enough to still be a mid to high tier pro, but its evident that is his limit. Most of the others have shaped up and developed beyond what he can do.
Calm is however a bad example. Unlike Stork who still plays regularly, Calm rarely plays. Calm is really just always out of shape. But Calm's still a good player. His issue is that he's the kind of player who relies heavily on pre-game planning. Throw him into a KPL, JPL, or a Uni PL and have his opponent be randomly determined and he won't play that well. He's bad in in game adjustments and strategy on the fly. But give him time to pre-plan and he can bust out some good games. But generally... he just doesn't play. Last time before ASL he allegedly was just busy with UNI events and didn't actually prep lol.
These two examples are an inability to grow and an extreme lack of activity.
On February 11 2026 22:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: To be honest, Stork's decline is overstated. Stork didn't decline much if at all. His issue is he stopped growing where others did keep growing. He's in the same state as he was 6 years ago, and as he was almost 10 years ago. It is good enough to still be a mid to high tier pro, but its evident that is his limit. Most of the others have shaped up and developed beyond what he can do.
Calm is however a bad example. Unlike Stork who still plays regularly, Calm rarely plays. Calm is really just always out of shape. But Calm's still a good player. His issue is that he's the kind of player who relies heavily on pre-game planning. Throw him into a KPL, JPL, or a Uni PL and have his opponent be randomly determined and he won't play that well. He's bad in in game adjustments and strategy on the fly. But give him time to pre-plan and he can bust out some good games. But generally... he just doesn't play. Last time before ASL he allegedly was just busy with UNI events and didn't actually prep lol.
These two examples are an inability to grow and an extreme lack of activity.
I was out of the scene during like 2014-2018. Was Calm move active then or about the same as now (mostly playing UMS etc) ? My impression was that he tried to come back but couldnt cut it.
On February 11 2026 22:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: To be honest, Stork's decline is overstated. Stork didn't decline much if at all. His issue is he stopped growing where others did keep growing. He's in the same state as he was 6 years ago, and as he was almost 10 years ago. It is good enough to still be a mid to high tier pro, but its evident that is his limit. Most of the others have shaped up and developed beyond what he can do.
Calm is however a bad example. Unlike Stork who still plays regularly, Calm rarely plays. Calm is really just always out of shape. But Calm's still a good player. His issue is that he's the kind of player who relies heavily on pre-game planning. Throw him into a KPL, JPL, or a Uni PL and have his opponent be randomly determined and he won't play that well. He's bad in in game adjustments and strategy on the fly. But give him time to pre-plan and he can bust out some good games. But generally... he just doesn't play. Last time before ASL he allegedly was just busy with UNI events and didn't actually prep lol.
These two examples are an inability to grow and an extreme lack of activity.
I was out of the scene during like 2014-2018. Was Calm move active then or about the same as now (mostly playing UMS etc) ? My impression was that he tried to come back but couldnt cut it.
Calm played kind of well in 2018 and 2019. Qualified for ASL5-8 consecutively and peaked in Ro8 ASL7, beating Last and SnOw in Ro16 to qualify as first in the group. He was in almost every single MPL or KPL(wasnt named kpl yet) for 2019 and 2020. 2021 and most of 2022 he seemed to be largely inactive as I dont get many Calm hits in my file search for 2021 or 2022. 2023 he was in KPL a lot but was not very succesful. Like a mid level KPL player. Looking at his POV VODs during that time frame it all looks clean and polished, but not like brainzerg levels of smart. No preplanning.
He never got back to championship winning levels, but he already wasnt at that level anymore nearing the end of kespa where he was able to preplan entire sets.
On February 11 2026 22:32 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: To be honest, Stork's decline is overstated. Stork didn't decline much if at all. His issue is he stopped growing where others did keep growing. He's in the same state as he was 6 years ago, and as he was almost 10 years ago. It is good enough to still be a mid to high tier pro, but its evident that is his limit. Most of the others have shaped up and developed beyond what he can do.
Calm is however a bad example. Unlike Stork who still plays regularly, Calm rarely plays. Calm is really just always out of shape. But Calm's still a good player. His issue is that he's the kind of player who relies heavily on pre-game planning. Throw him into a KPL, JPL, or a Uni PL and have his opponent be randomly determined and he won't play that well. He's bad in in game adjustments and strategy on the fly. But give him time to pre-plan and he can bust out some good games. But generally... he just doesn't play. Last time before ASL he allegedly was just busy with UNI events and didn't actually prep lol.
These two examples are an inability to grow and an extreme lack of activity.
I was out of the scene during like 2014-2018. Was Calm move active then or about the same as now (mostly playing UMS etc) ? My impression was that he tried to come back but couldnt cut it.
Calm played kind of well in 2018 and 2019. Qualified for ASL5-8 consecutively and peaked in Ro8 ASL7, beating Last and SnOw in Ro16 to qualify as first in the group. He was in almost every single MPL or KPL(wasnt named kpl yet) for 2019 and 2020. 2021 and most of 2022 he seemed to be largely inactive as I dont get many Calm hits in my file search for 2021 or 2022. 2023 he was in KPL a lot but was not very succesful. Like a mid level KPL player. Looking at his POV VODs during that time frame it all looks clean and polished, but not like brainzerg levels of smart. No preplanning.
He never got back to championship winning levels, but he already wasnt at that level anymore nearing the end of kespa where he was able to preplan entire sets.
Thanks for info. Also I think in today's scene Calm's style of pre-planned builds just doesnt work. Pros play SO many games every week, usually with the same group of like 15-20 other pros, and they're streaming constantly. Not to mention that after almost 30 years there's just way less room for trickery unless the maps are really weird.
Just now, on the Dotaek Revolution broadcast, Jaehyuk kept saying that his best moment was when he caught Jedong, lol.
He caught him in the finals.
Haha.
He said that was the best.
That's it.
I turned off the TV at that time.
zzz
Haha.
Wow, do you remember that?
Park Jaehyuk joined Dotaek Revolution because he was so good.
He kept saying he wasn't the right person to join, and Jung Myunghoon prepared several questions. He started talking about his prime and said that was his greatest achievement. Jedong was such a big mountain, he seemed proud.
Hyuk must have been talking about the Shinhan08-09 Proleague finals which had the following line-up: PerfectMan < Heartbreak Ridge > Bisu Jaedong < Outsider > Hyuk BackHo < Destination > Canata Killer < God's Garden > Thezerg HiyA < Neo Harmony > FanTaSy Lomo < Shades of Twilight > BeSt Ace <Neo Medusa> Ace+ Show Spoiler +
i have a question: would anyone happen to know when/date flash and snow played a bo9 series? from this linked video? i i am trying to find snows pov but i can't seem to find it.
i have a question: would anyone happen to know when/date flash and snow played a bo9 series? from this linked video? i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9z3l4VCPw4 i am trying to find snows pov but i can't seem to find it.
i have a question: would anyone happen to know when/date flash and snow played a bo9 series? from this linked video? i https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9z3l4VCPw4 i am trying to find snows pov but i can't seem to find it.
EPT
FanTaSy is streaming SKT1 reunion dinner with Best, Bisu, and Hyuk.
PerfectMan < Heartbreak Ridge > 
Jaedong < Outsider > 
