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BW General Discussion - Page 418

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MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-28 02:48:13
April 28 2022 02:37 GMT
#8341
@tec27 did you post something after "DTR can be:"?

I dont see it.

Where do you get 126 ms from? The game feels way snappier than that on TR24.

Uh sorry i misremembered, here is my own test on latency: https://pastebin.com/raw/7aKxTEFx (which is not accurate by any means)
-.-
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3701 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-04-28 23:31:16
April 28 2022 23:30 GMT
#8342
On April 28 2022 11:37 MeSaber wrote:
@tec27 did you post something after "DTR can be:"?

I dont see it.

Where do you get 126 ms from? The game feels way snappier than that on TR24.

Uh sorry i misremembered, here is my own test on latency: https://pastebin.com/raw/7aKxTEFx (which is not accurate by any means)

Yes, it's a link to a Twitter post (which TL turns into an embed). Seems to be working fine for me, maybe something is blocking it for you.

As for the latency number, it comes from my table here (which is one-way latencies, double them to get what people usually measure with ping):

[image loading]

These values aren't completely exact, as there's an overhead factor that we don't have an exact value for, but they can be seen as the upper bound on max latency for each setting. I'll note also that these are calculated for ShieldBattery's netcode, which manages to reduce the overhead factor a bit, so if you want to be safe on bnet you may want to subtract ~10ms from the numbers.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
johndoe44
Profile Joined May 2022
3 Posts
May 03 2022 08:26 GMT
#8343
--- Nuked ---
johndoe44
Profile Joined May 2022
3 Posts
May 03 2022 08:27 GMT
#8344
--- Nuked ---
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
May 03 2022 09:22 GMT
#8345
On April 29 2022 08:30 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2022 11:37 MeSaber wrote:
@tec27 did you post something after "DTR can be:"?

I dont see it.

Where do you get 126 ms from? The game feels way snappier than that on TR24.

Uh sorry i misremembered, here is my own test on latency: https://pastebin.com/raw/7aKxTEFx (which is not accurate by any means)

Yes, it's a link to a Twitter post (which TL turns into an embed). Seems to be working fine for me, maybe something is blocking it for you.

As for the latency number, it comes from my table here (which is one-way latencies, double them to get what people usually measure with ping):

[image loading]

These values aren't completely exact, as there's an overhead factor that we don't have an exact value for, but they can be seen as the upper bound on max latency for each setting. I'll note also that these are calculated for ShieldBattery's netcode, which manages to reduce the overhead factor a bit, so if you want to be safe on bnet you may want to subtract ~10ms from the numbers.



Thats funny. My numbers arent that way off 😂

What causes lag spikes/stutter? Is it when ping goes above the values you posted?

Is there a difference of using high TR + xhigh lat vs low TR + low lat?

I know Bonyth prefer high TR and high/xhigh. Is this how you should do it?
-.-
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland569 Posts
May 03 2022 12:50 GMT
#8346
That's not entirely true what u've said.
I prefer low latencies. However, because as I mentioned earlier, dynamic turn rate doesn't get the right values, i'm forces to put the latency at 'high' if it was set as 'low' before.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
May 03 2022 13:12 GMT
#8347
On May 03 2022 21:50 Bonyth wrote:
That's not entirely true what u've said.
I prefer low latencies. However, because as I mentioned earlier, dynamic turn rate doesn't get the right values, i'm forces to put the latency at 'high' if it was set as 'low' before.


This is what i mean though.

If you set high you get higher TR, if you keep low you get lower TR. Which is best?

Does it make a difference?
-.-
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland569 Posts
May 03 2022 15:03 GMT
#8348
As i've said, i prefer low latencies. TR12 low > TR24 extra high lat, despite the same values.
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3684 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-03 21:07:15
May 03 2022 21:07 GMT
#8349
High/Extra High adds an inherit delay to all your actions to compensate for the lag. TR changes how often the game updates. So ye high/extra high is straight aids, I wish they'd remove those and fix the auto TR algorithm.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3701 Posts
May 04 2022 01:56 GMT
#8350
On May 03 2022 18:22 MeSaber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2022 08:30 tec27 wrote:
On April 28 2022 11:37 MeSaber wrote:
@tec27 did you post something after "DTR can be:"?

I dont see it.

Where do you get 126 ms from? The game feels way snappier than that on TR24.

Uh sorry i misremembered, here is my own test on latency: https://pastebin.com/raw/7aKxTEFx (which is not accurate by any means)

Yes, it's a link to a Twitter post (which TL turns into an embed). Seems to be working fine for me, maybe something is blocking it for you.

As for the latency number, it comes from my table here (which is one-way latencies, double them to get what people usually measure with ping):

[image loading]

These values aren't completely exact, as there's an overhead factor that we don't have an exact value for, but they can be seen as the upper bound on max latency for each setting. I'll note also that these are calculated for ShieldBattery's netcode, which manages to reduce the overhead factor a bit, so if you want to be safe on bnet you may want to subtract ~10ms from the numbers.



Thats funny. My numbers arent that way off 😂

What causes lag spikes/stutter? Is it when ping goes above the values you posted?

Is there a difference of using high TR + xhigh lat vs low TR + low lat?

I know Bonyth prefer high TR and high/xhigh. Is this how you should do it?

Stutter is caused by not hitting the required timing for turns. When you don't have all of the turns of other players by the time it needs to be executed, the game freezes to wait for them to arrive. That's all a stutter is. Sometimes these are very small (less than 1 turn), sometimes these last for multiple seconds. Generally DTR picks turn rates that cause stutters that are about 1 turn or less, so they aren't super noticeable if you're watching the game, but they tend to feel absolutely terrible for those playing and mess up people's micro, etc.

Yes, there is a difference between using low, high, or extra high, versus adjusting turn rates, but people tend to have bad intuition for this (and I think Grant's explanations on the official forums were quite bad and muddied the waters further). In my opinion, the only number you should care about is the average latency between performing an action and having it executed by the game. That is, if I tell a unit to move, how long does it take between my click and the unit actually starting to move?

When you increase the in-game latency setting (e.g. low -> high), you're increasing how many turns the game buffers before executing them. The length of each turn is determined by the turn rate. When I perform an action, it may not be right at the end of the turn, it could be anywhere within the turn, that is, it could be anywhere between 0 and 1000 / turn_rate milliseconds before the turn is boxed up and sent to other players. If we add that value to the length of the buffer in milliseconds, we get the minimum and maximum bounds for action latency:

1000 * buffer_size / turn_rate

and

1000 * buffer_size / turn_rate + 1000 / turn_rate


Therefore if we want the average latency for any given action, the formula is (after simplification):

(1000 * buffer_size + 500) / turn_rate


Using that formula we find that although TR 24 Extra High and TR 12 Low have the same max latency requirements, TR 24 Extra High has 187ms average latency vs TR 12 Low's 208ms, so TR 24 Extra High should be preferred. As you can see by Bonyth's post above this one, many people have the opposite intuition. Which is why on ShieldBattery we stopped showing the turn rate + user latency setting at all, preferring the latency number that actually matters.

There are still reasons to prefer Low or High latency settings if you're picking a static turn rate however, namely that if the connection quality worsens and you're on Extra High already, there's no setting you can change to improve things without leaving the game. For that reason we try to avoid Extra High settings on SB unless it's the only value that works, but in the future (when we have our own dynamic netcode implementation), we plan to allow larger buffer sizes and remove the user setting entirely, which will fix this issue.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
May 04 2022 15:14 GMT
#8351
Have you seen how TR24+Low works when there is some lag?

What happens is that the game fast-forwards like its on crack. Do you have any good explanation why this happens instead of showing a lag screen?

This only happens on high TR with some lag, never lower TR numbers like 16 below.

Thank for the explanation btw.
-.-
Bisu-Fan
Profile Joined January 2010
Russian Federation3332 Posts
May 04 2022 19:50 GMT
#8352
Anyone been following the BW college tournament? I didn't see any coverage of it anywhere. I realize it's like only in Korean, so it's not getting as many eyes, but the storylines are pretty fun and a lot of good training content as well as lots of new people picking up the game.
The Revolutionist Shall Rise Again! No. 1 Kim Taek Yong Fan 어헣↗ GO JAEDONG!!!!!!! GO ACE!!! 태연 <3 윤아 <3 승연 <3
WaterSerpentM
Profile Joined November 2018
United Kingdom139 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-05 18:14:56
May 05 2022 16:10 GMT
#8353
regarding the 8 techniques, i know it was too much of elaborated statements i wrote that comes under the list

you could ignore my elaborations and fill it out yourself
for example there is a dispute that its good to scout with a observer or a scout, reason being, observers can scout undetected while scouts can scout and poke(harass), to be honest, any unit can scout, its just that all units are deferent

if you want to clarify yourself what is good, you can fill out your own elaborations:


Technique 1: Army
Army: Use front units backed up with ranged units.

Technique 2: Power Up
Power Up: Upgrade Army Stats

Technique 3: Scouting
Scouting: Looking for expansions being built using fast units to destroy expansions.

Technique 4: Fortressing
Fortressing: To either block or hide behind or creating map control

Technique 5: Support
Support: Using support units to back up your army

Technique 6: Poking
Poking: Using fast air units to attack resources carriers to get away with

Technique 7: Rendezvous
Simply retreating units for backup

Technique 8: Drops
Drops: on mineral line
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42884 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-05 18:56:35
May 05 2022 18:56 GMT
#8354
On May 06 2022 01:10 WaterSerpentM wrote:
regarding the 8 techniques, i know it was too much of elaborated statements i wrote that comes under the list

you could ignore my elaborations and fill it out yourself
for example there is a dispute that its good to scout with a observer or a scout, reason being, observers can scout undetected while scouts can scout and poke(harass), to be honest, any unit can scout, its just that all units are deferent

if you want to clarify yourself what is good, you can fill out your own elaborations:


Technique 1: Army
Army: Use front units backed up with ranged units.

Technique 2: Power Up
Power Up: Upgrade Army Stats

Technique 3: Scouting
Scouting: Looking for expansions being built using fast units to destroy expansions.

Technique 4: Fortressing
Fortressing: To either block or hide behind or creating map control

Technique 5: Support
Support: Using support units to back up your army

Technique 6: Poking
Poking: Using fast air units to attack resources carriers to get away with

Technique 7: Rendezvous
Simply retreating units for backup

Technique 8: Drops
Drops: on mineral line

I think you’re missing a few. What about the clicking technique to see their upgrades? That’s a good technique in PvT. Then there’s knowing, that’s when you use flyers against tanks because you know that tanks can’t shoot up. Also spelling. That’s actually two techniques. It’s useful for communicating by text but can also make enemy units disappear with psionic storm etc.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
WaterSerpentM
Profile Joined November 2018
United Kingdom139 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-05-05 19:19:27
May 05 2022 19:00 GMT
#8355
On May 06 2022 03:56 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2022 01:10 WaterSerpentM wrote:
regarding the 8 techniques, i know it was too much of elaborated statements i wrote that comes under the list

you could ignore my elaborations and fill it out yourself
for example there is a dispute that its good to scout with a observer or a scout, reason being, observers can scout undetected while scouts can scout and poke(harass), to be honest, any unit can scout, its just that all units are deferent

if you want to clarify yourself what is good, you can fill out your own elaborations:


Technique 1: Army
Army: Use front units backed up with ranged units.

Technique 2: Power Up
Power Up: Upgrade Army Stats

Technique 3: Scouting
Scouting: Looking for expansions being built using fast units to destroy expansions.

Technique 4: Fortressing
Fortressing: To either block or hide behind or creating map control

Technique 5: Support
Support: Using support units to back up your army

Technique 6: Poking
Poking: Using fast air units to attack resources carriers to get away with

Technique 7: Rendezvous
Simply retreating units for backup

Technique 8: Drops
Drops: on mineral line

I think you’re missing a few. What about the clicking technique to see their upgrades? That’s a good technique in PvT. Then there’s knowing, that’s when you use flyers against tanks because you know that tanks can’t shoot up. Also spelling. That’s actually two techniques. It’s useful for communicating by text but can also make enemy units disappear with psionic storm etc.


you are right

these are the techniques(a core action to excel at a skill)

knowing what units beats other units comes under attributes

everything else comes under Tactics(sub techniques), there are loads of them, I don't know them all

Also there is Ability(mouse and keyboard control)

=]
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway702 Posts
May 05 2022 19:29 GMT
#8356
You are by far my favorite poster on this forum, WaterSerpentM.
Thanks for these tips, this is good stuff
Crypto007
Profile Joined May 2022
1 Post
May 06 2022 06:42 GMT
#8357
--- Nuked ---
DiMiaN
Profile Joined October 2013
Finland300 Posts
May 08 2022 08:38 GMT
#8358
Man I miss those weekly or bi-weekly tournaments like Defiler Tour or Have at You! I'm working on inserting missing tournament results from 2017 to liquipedia and I see these legends(Bonyth, Dewalt, eOn, TerrOr, Sziky etc) play vs each other frequently. Also interesting to see if they ever win vs Scan who wins every time he is participating
redknights
Profile Joined December 2021
206 Posts
May 09 2022 15:57 GMT
#8359
On May 05 2022 04:50 Bisu-Fan wrote:
Anyone been following the BW college tournament? I didn't see any coverage of it anywhere. I realize it's like only in Korean, so it's not getting as many eyes, but the storylines are pretty fun and a lot of good training content as well as lots of new people picking up the game.

Probably great for the Starcraft/Afreeca industry ($$$) but May will be a bad month for fans of top-level play

The matches are going to be ~85-90% non-pros, and the top pros are spending most of their time teaching and training their students for the college tourney.

Proleagues are going to be very rare until the tourney is over

Queen wrote that he is taking a lengthy break from streaming due to the college tourney (since he is currently not participating in a college)
Lorch
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany3684 Posts
May 09 2022 19:09 GMT
#8360
Anyone know if ASTL is happening any time soon?
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