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prosatan
Romania7392 Posts
On October 15 2018 04:10 Timebon3s wrote: Is the level of play these days a lot worse than during KESPA days? I don't think so ... only a fewer players But I think this question deserves it's own thread | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 15 2018 04:10 Timebon3s wrote: Is the level of play these days a lot worse than during KESPA days? Reactions may not be as fast in some cases, but overall, the level has certainly went up. We do see players make more basic mistakes, and have seen scrappier games, but mechanics and strategy have increased a lot since. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7392 Posts
Some are worse: Jaedong , Stork Flash remained the same  | ||
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Jealous
10081 Posts
On October 15 2018 13:52 prosatan wrote: We could say some players are way better than in their past: Larva , Sharp , Last (!!!) and maybe Rain. Some are worse: Jaedong , Stork Flash remained the same Flash's APM seems to have gone up a fair amount, although it could be just the different calculation from the Blizzard client. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
[Question] Is it true that tvz switch to mech is due to lesser skill in controlling mass rines vs Dark Swarm? To me controlling mech units is way harder then controlling bio units but maybe it's just me. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
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Highgamer
1373 Posts
(This might not be the case for kogeT-class-players, but from what I've seen, many Terrans who're great with bio in the midgame, if they stick with bio in the lategame, will have a rally-point swarming with unused bio-units while they lose their M&M at different fronts to swarm... unlike in the midgame where you have one bio-army that is indeed more flexible and thus maybe "easier" to control to some Terrans.) In the lategame with mass marines you either have to hit and run all the time and cast countless irradiates on top of that or you have to fill shuttles constantly and micro little groups of units at different places all over the map. (You definitely should add some firebats with that style.) On the other hand mech can push through and defend against swarm thanks to siege-splash and mines. At some point you can just assemble 5 control-groups and start pushing. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 15 2018 16:39 AntiHack wrote: What bother me is seeing players losing so many science vessels with little to no reaction. [Question] Is it true that tvz switch to mech is due to lesser skill in controlling mass rines vs Dark Swarm? To me controlling mech units is way harder then controlling bio units but maybe it's just me. Mech army is a lot more about positioning imo since they can take some hits compared to marines dying to 2 lurker spikes with no upgrades. From my understanding, Zerg players have become really great at using defilers so it makes playing SK Terran much harder, and the mech switch became the logical conclusion. Much like the poster mentioned above, bio can be really intense. Ever tried playing bio against a 4-5 base Zerg? Trust me, you won't have it easy when you have to be constantly on top of those macro cycles while trying to be alert, aggressive, and expand on top of that other tasks. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
on say transistor or aztec you'd most likely stay on bio the entire game but on CB/FS you'd ideally transition to mech because you can mass expand and split map CB/FS spiked to 60~65% winrate tvz when flash figured out mech transition, now they're at 55~60% since zergs have gotten better against it | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
Another thing is that if you get an adventage in early/mid game, you might as well try to close the game with bio, while if you are even or slightly behind a mech switch could potentially give you a comeback (due to mass vulture). But again, transition period is very difficult then. As for FS, I agree it's a very good mech transition map. CB is terrible though. | ||
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
Universally every Zerg is doing extremely well in PvZ, and every Protoss is doing pretty poorly. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On October 19 2018 04:55 thezanursic wrote: Is PvZ becoming a problem? Universally every Zerg is doing extremely well in PvZ, and every Protoss is doing pretty poorly. I think so, at least in Afreeca scene maybe maps have something to do with it? The ammount of hydrabusts is getting way to high. | ||
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plast1c
Germany99 Posts
On October 15 2018 04:10 Timebon3s wrote: Is the level of play these days a lot worse than during KESPA days? Imho the level of play was the highest in the last pro league season. After a valley, it is again on a high level for at least one year, I think. Would be interesting to see what other players think! | ||
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kogeT
Poland2023 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12021 Posts
On October 19 2018 18:55 kogeT wrote: PvT was a problem before Flash was back. We need Bisu to come back to inspire poor protoss players again. Stork used to have the best PvT in the world. Sadly recently he's not been as strong as he was. The main issue I see is that Flash is the only one who doesn't have atleast some trouble with Protoss and that's because he has by far the best TvP. Most of the other terrans are kinda mid range. PvZ is definitely suffering but that's because realistically the only protoss who has insane PvZ is Bisu, all the others are better in PvT than he is and all the zergs are amazing at ZvP. | ||
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Lumire
United States607 Posts
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TT1
Canada9977 Posts
No one has Bisu's sair control/multitask. His PvZ isn't some mistery, he just harassed with sairs and macro'd perfectly. If you can't do that then you might as well just go DA. Funny enough Bisu's late game PvZ was never super strong, same thing for his PvT. Bisu's godly multitask allowed him to gain an edge in the early-middgame and he'd follow it up by rolling his opponents with perfect macro. His late game army management (especially his 200 vs 200 engagements) was never great tho. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Multitasking is not precisely about just being faster and more aware. It is really time and focus management. I feel in the past you saw PvZ always return corsairs to the safety of cannons after like one overlord kill, maybe two if they got lucky. Then you do not send them out again until you have +1 and enough to vaporize scourge. What we see now is the corsairs vulnerable on the map while scourge have been out of awhile, and the corsair coming back out on the map before they can kill scourge effectively. Then, predictably, they die and do barely anything. Even Bisu, lord of multitask, has had dumb games where he loses like 3 or 4 corsairs for nothing. The hydra bust is a problem that has always only had one answer, which is clever scouting and being always ready to throw down 3 cannons at the drop of a hat. Even mechanically, I feel that Protosses are quite a bit slower at reacting to the first hydra they see. Whether you scout it or not is always a micro / tactical battle between your probe / zealot and your opponent's zerglings, where if you don't see it you lose, and if you do the zerg can still play a reasonable (if slightly disadvantaged depending on how early you saw it) game from there, hence the imbalance of the matchup. It is simply core to Brood War that if you have to do something at the same time as microing a vital unit or group of units, those units are very likely to die, and that one of the major skills of Brood War is finding ways to get your vital units to safety while you do something else. Trying to use them at the same time as macroing will always be extremely risky, and is characteristic of the high risk-reward modern style where players are pushing that risk to try to get an edge, (I think) often erroneously. KeSPA era StarCraft was characterized by much safer strategic decisions, much more stable games, and much more consistent results. High level strategy tended to err on letting your opponent self-destruct by taking too many risks, even if once in awhile a high risk play would let them run away with the game. To me, it seems players now rely entirely on technique, and ironically because they are always biting off more than they can chew, their technique sometimes appears sloppy even though it is their main focus. I believe before, even if some upstart full of piss and vinegar could get a slight edge early in the game from taking these sorts of risks, the A and S class pro players would grind through the game with consistently safer play, and their opponent would piss away their lead taking more risks they didn't have to take, bleeding science vessels, or corsairs, or lurkers at every turn. Without a doubt, one of the hardest parts of consistent, safe style StarCraft is surviving timing attacks, and you can see why players put a high value to taking risks early on in order to sway the balance of those timing attacks in their favour. But I think when players focus so much on those risks, the rest of their game knowledge and ability actually suffers, making them more vulnerable to the same risky style. In the end, we see a lot fewer battles and games look more decided early on. PvZ has always been very hard, but I also feel like I have seen almost none if any late game PvZ in the last 5 years, and that's systemic of how Protoss are approaching the matchup. Lategame PvZ used to be fairly common, and one of the most fun things to watch in Brood War, what usually made PvZ the popular racepick matchup for Zerg and Protoss who didn't like the mirror. Now PvZ is almost as bad as the mirrors lol. ZvT has had the same sad fate. I may be wrong in all of my analysis here, but I can say pretty factually the two most beloved matchups of the game have gotten a lot worse, and generally players are favouring high risk attacks and harass over steady growth and expansion. | ||
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