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On February 12 2015 10:04 Hesmyrr wrote:
There's difference between
Hwasin is shunned from the society
Hwasin's apology is accepted
Hwasin is not allowed to participate in BW tournaments
Hwasin is not allowed to stream BW
Him not being able to do option 3 does not automatically mean other three things come along in free-for-all bundle.
society is always divided when it comes to (1) and (2), and as long as hwasin is on good behaviour it doesnt matter.
(3) is a definite no ONLY if the organizer refuses them (any big sponsored korean events that want to care about integrity)
hwasin is free to stream BW (4), its not illegal, you cannot enforce (4) by any means whether you like it or hate it
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Yeah, I don't mind streaming, it is just that some people keep saying "stop ruining Hwasin's life!" while he has already recovered from his mistake. His matter of participation in BW league is another topic entirely for me.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50545 Posts
On February 12 2015 10:14 Hesmyrr wrote:
Yeah, I don't mind streaming, it is just that some people keep saying "stop ruining Hwasin's life!" while he has already recovered from his mistake. His matter of participation in BW league is another topic entirely for me.
exactly my point.
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The uproar over him not playing in professional games is not as great as if he is allowed to do so.
Advertising money is at stake
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hwasin always looks like he never gets enough sleep.
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On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote:
People continue to amaze me by
1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
2) ignoring the impact that the participation of convicted criminals would have on the business side of BW; and
3) showing a carefree attitude toward the probability of criminal recidivism.
1) what scene? dont forget we still don't really have a pro scene per se, there are no professional teams, no professional organization overseeing this, BW players dont draw fixed salary from playing BW etc.
There is a pro scene. It just isn't the KeSPA pro scene. A professional in the traditional sense is someone whose livelihood comes from a particular profession. Let's not forget that SSL10 is laying the groundwork for the creation of a new pro scene. Furthermore, I was also addressing those who are clamoring to see the match-fixers back in the big tourneys.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:
If you are talking about the amateur scene, savior has already been streaming BW for a very long while (albeit not participating in any korean tourneys) and apart from the usual odd venom I dont see people clamoring to take down his stream whatever. Are you going to diss terror/pusan for playing balloon matches with savior?
The vast majority of Koreans ARE plenty critical of savior. Terror's a bit screwed in the head. I give him the "crazy pass". As for Pusan, Hiya said it best: No one really wants to play against Savior, but the people who do play him are doing so because they really need the money. Hiya also pointed out that those who have plenty of money, like Bisu, won't play Savior because the hit to his reputation (which is big enough to have $ value) isn't worth it.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:
He also drew flak for participating in the China 2v2 tourney, yet I don't see korean players like Movie stop their participation in china competitions after that, or any majority of people continuing to criticize them even now for doing so.
Again, they need the money. What are they going to do? You will see people stop playing savior very quickly if they get picked up by a legtimate sponsor. Unfortunately, most players have no idea how the real world works so they see the small immediate gain but not the bigger future losses (or delays) of opportunity.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:
Any other large korean tourneys or sponsored events would automatically not allow him in, but otherwise savior and gang are free to join in any other foreign or smaller events. With Savior on good behavior this has been going on for a while, and has yet to stop the current revival of BW spearheaded by sonic whatsoever.
Yes, the ban on the matchfixers is a KeSPA ban. I am not talking about whether they are technically allowed to participate in non-KeSPA events. I am talking about whether their presence hurts viability of televised BW.
The current revival of BW spearheaded by Sonic has not been stopped because Sonic's been pouring his personal funds into it despite it not being profitable. To see that as an indicator that the match-fixers' did not have an impact on the current scene is like saying that mob hitmen are not dangerous because your bodyguard stopped the bullet with his body. Of course, there are other perhaps bigger reasons, but that doesn't mean that their presence is a non-factor. While I don't imagine that Sonic will stop financing SSL any time soon, I also don't know how Sonic's business will go in the future. Also, because I am thankful, I would like him to at least break even on the BW ventures in the future even. Furthermore, would Sonic continue if there was a new match-fixing scandal and his burgeoning brand would take a major hit from continued association with BW? It's one thing to lose $50,000 a year on a labor of love. It's an entirely different thing to lose millions in the brand value of your main business.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:
2) I doubt simply playing BW primarily as a hobby would any effect on the business side of BW, since the big sponsored tourneys in Korea would have the good sense not to invite them anyway, even if somehow they wish to (and i think people like savior would not want to either). Some people on this forum think they shouldn't even touch BW ever even as a hobby, as if their cardinal sins is directly related to the game itself.
Playing BW privately as a hobby for fun and playing BW publicly for money is quite different. If you think that the latter doesn't have any effect on major corporate sponsorship, I don't know what to tell you other than that's just not the way it works in the real world.
On February 12 2015 09:49 Probemicro wrote:
3) i think society continuing to label them as "criminals" even long after rehabilitation, continuing to treat them as such even if they say they have forgiven them, and restricting their freedom and reintegration has more of an impact on their likelihood of recidivism, if anything.
They have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. They can reintegrate into society without playing BW for money. Plenty of normal people do it. They might have to do some physical labor. They might have to start from the very bottom rung of some other career. They don't *have* to play BW for money to reintegrate. That's just another false equivalence. Calling for them to voluntarily stop activities that negatively impact the health of the community whose livelihoods they damaged (not killed, but certainly damaged) is not restricting their freedom. It's just asking them to show some remorse with their actions instead of words. It costs nothing to say sorry. Stopping their for-money streaming does have opportunity costs.
Furthermore, Hwasin's bookmarks seem to indicate that he bets illegally (or strangely visits illegal betting sites daily without betting). Getting him into a position where he might be able to fix matches himself, broker the match-fixing of others, or obtain insider information seems to be the very opposite of rehabilitation. These illegal betting sites even have betting lines for balloon-sponsored matches. So it's not just the big time tournaments that matter.
I haven't mentioned it here, but there is already open speculation about match-fixing in the current scene. It's not completely baseless. A handful of players are hanging out with some very unsavory individuals who are involved in illegal betting. Also, if you read the secondary/tertiary (not the main room) Afreeca chat in streams with many viewers, they are often flooded with advertisements for illegal betting sites. If anything, the scene needs a lot more vigilance now at this critical time in the rebirth of BW. Sonic is absorbing all the body blows for us now, but he still needs all the help he can get. Hwasin and Savior are not helping.
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On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
There is a pro scene. It just isn't the KeSPA pro scene. A professional in the traditional sense is someone whose livelihood comes from a particular profession. Let's not forget that SSL10 is laying the groundwork for the creation of a new pro scene. Furthermore, I was also addressing those who are clamoring to see the match-fixers back in the big tourneys.
they are not TECHNICALLY earning livelihood from streaming BW, they only earn donations through "balloons" and not all streamers are like Bisu who earned enough to sustain themselves purely through that. theres not a professional scene, nothing close, not yet. if sonic starts to actually pour more money into professional teams/leagues, yes then there will be a true pro scene.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
The vast majority of Koreans ARE plenty critical of savior. Terror's a bit screwed in the head. I give him the "crazy pass". As for Pusan, Hiya said it best: No one really wants to play against Savior, but the people who do play him are doing so because they really need the money. Hiya also pointed out that those who have plenty of money, like Bisu, won't play Savior because the hit to his reputation (which is big enough to have $ value) isn't worth it.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
Again, they need the money. What are they going to do? You will see people stop playing savior very quickly if they get picked up by a legtimate sponsor. Unfortunately, most players have no idea how the real world works so they see the small immediate gain but not the bigger future losses (or delays) of opportunity.
so why is the public more lax and less critical when it comes to these things? why the double standard when it comes to foreign events? shouldn't koreans lambast movie, pure, guemchi for joining tourneys "tainted" by savior? or koreans in general don't simply give a fuck about foreign happenings?
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
The current revival of BW spearheaded by Sonic has not been stopped because Sonic's been pouring his personal funds into it despite it not being profitable. To see that as an indicator that the match-fixers' did not have an impact on the current scene is like saying that mob hitmen are not dangerous because your bodyguard stopped the bullet with his body. Of course, there are other perhaps bigger reasons, but that doesn't mean that their presence is a non-factor. While I don't imagine that Sonic will stop financing SSL any time soon, I also don't know how Sonic's business will go in the future. Also, because I am thankful, I would like him to at least break even on the BW ventures in the future even. Furthermore, would Sonic continue if there was a new match-fixing scandal and his burgeoning brand would take a major hit from continued association with BW? It's one thing to lose $50,000 a year on a labor of love. It's an entirely different thing to lose millions in the brand value of your main business.
what bodyguard? I haven't heard of any concrete anti-match/anti-illegal betting fixing measures or money poured into said measures to deter/stop such acts.
What about kespa? In the past, have they properly educate their players on the importance of sportsmanship/ethics and inform them of the consequences of such acts, knowing they have so many young players at hand? look at how illegal betting is starting to become rife even in sc2 now, its obvious there hasn't been any proper measures put in place or anything taught to people.
people are naturally greedy and will illegally bet and thus its up to the authorities/organizations involved to implement measures to safeguard their players and game. this is one thing sonic should be aware of if he decides to truly revive BW with a pro scene.
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
Playing BW privately as a hobby for fun and playing BW publicly for money is quite different. If you think that the latter doesn't have any effect on major corporate sponsorship, I don't know what to tell you other than that's just not the way it works in the real world.
please read my statement again.
i said playing BW privately does not have any business effects,
not playing BW in competitions does not have any business effect
On February 12 2015 14:12 lemmata wrote:
They have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. They can reintegrate into society without playing BW for money. Plenty of normal people do it. They might have to do some physical labor. They might have to start from the very bottom rung of some other career. They don't *have* to play BW for money to reintegrate. That's just another false equivalence. Calling for them to voluntarily stop activities that negatively impact the health of the community whose livelihoods they damaged (not killed, but certainly damaged) is not restricting their freedom. It's just asking them to show some remorse with their actions instead of words. It costs nothing to say sorry. Stopping their for-money streaming does have opportunity costs.
Furthermore, Hwasin's bookmarks seem to indicate that he bets illegally (or strangely visits illegal betting sites daily without betting). Getting him into a position where he might be able to fix matches himself, broker the match-fixing of others, or obtain insider information seems to be the very opposite of rehabilitation. These illegal betting sites even have betting lines for balloon-sponsored matches. So it's not just the big time tournaments that matter.
I haven't mentioned it here, but there is already open speculation about match-fixing in the current scene. It's not completely baseless. A handful of players are hanging out with some very unsavory individuals who are involved in illegal betting. Also, if you read the secondary/tertiary (not the main room) Afreeca chat in streams with many viewers, they are often flooded with advertisements for illegal betting sites. If anything, the scene needs a lot more vigilance now at this critical time in the rebirth of BW. Sonic is absorbing all the body blows for us now, but he still needs all the help he can get. Hwasin and Savior are not helping.
probation is not rehabilitation? doing social service is not rehabilitation? proper counselling is not rehabilitation? rehabilitation is not just about spending time in jail you know.
It is up to hwasin what they want to do with their lives, your constant labelling him as criminal when they are EX-CONVICTS does not help matters. and who say streaming BW is prohibited in any sense? Its not illegal for him, he does not draw a regular pro salary from it, organizers bar him from entering tourneys if they wish. No law stop him from just playing BW casually, only the social stigma and pressure society keeps placing on him. The kind of pressure that can make one crack and worst, make them continue their errant ways.
that screenshot doesn't prove anything. show me he owns accounts on those sites and have betted recently, thats more concrete evidence. until then we cannot say much.
like i said before corruption/matchfixing is frickken everywhere, even in the favorite sports that you like. Theres nothing you can do to stop human greed.
Whats more important is that whoever revives BW would implement or help to implement frameworks/measures to curb illegal acts like betting,
and ensure that every player is properly inculcated in the proper values of a true sportsman, making them know that any silly acts like match fixing can have wide consequences to the scene.
And that any offenders would be swiftly dealt with.
Thats one of the ways you properly revive a scene and impress sponsors, not just naming and shaming past offenders.
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yeah people are acting as if this is some crazy anomaly. the only thing is that they got caught. matchfixing and cheating goes on in pretty much every sport. all of your favorite athletes are using performance enhancing drugs.
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maybe in hockey land they do
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Had to intervene even though I dont care about the general argument: they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous.
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On February 13 2015 03:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:Had to intervene even though I dont care about the general argument: Show nested quote +they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous.
You can turn this into an irrelevant argument about processes that rehabilitate people if you really want to do so. I actually strongly agree with you that jail is not a good way. However, it still remains that there is no evidence of actual rehabilitation (be it jail OR something more helpful like emotionally connecting with their childhoods on a couch). Claiming (you didn't do it but others did) that they're rehabilitated is just wishful thinking, especially given the betting links on the bookmarks bar.
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Awesome
On February 11 2015 20:20 KasPra wrote:
My opinion is probably unpopular and obviously rather irrelevant, but I hope that there are at least some people who feel the same way. I feel like none of the ex-pros involved in the scandal should ever be forgiven and allowed back into the BW scene. There are some mistakes in life that you can only make once and I think betraying the entire community for some monetary gain should be one of them.
I know nostalgia plays a large part in people's judgement; I used to adore Hwasin's play as well and he was my favourite terran for a good while, but after utter scumbaggery like the betting scandal anything less than a lifetime ban wouldn't be appropriate. There's a lot of other things he could do, lots of other games to play and so on, just not BW because apologies shouldn't save him after spitting on the game and his fans.
It's not necessarily nostalgia. It's also empathy and forgiveness. I never liked Hwasin as a player, but I don't hate him. If someone is remorseful for their actions, then I choose to forgive them.
And don't worry, your opinion is far from unpopular.
On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote:
People continue to amaze me by
1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments.
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On February 13 2015 09:58 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote:
People continue to amaze me by
1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments.
Perhaps. However, many people who posted in this thread certainly *are* saying exactly that. I agree that there is a silent majority that has forgiven without being okay with the match-fixers coming back to the scene, but wisely choose to stay out of the frustrating mud-wrestling that is any thread involving this topic. Heck, I should have done that. There's barely enough time in my day to enjoy BW, let alone participate in aggravating discussions about match-fixers.
For the sake of completeness, your statement that "there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments" is true, but it's irrelevant to whether we can forgive and still believe that they should stay the heck out of tournaments.
1) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument against not allowing him to play in tournaments for other completely legitimate reasons.
2) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument for saying that allowing him to play in tournaments is a necessary condition for forgiveness. All people who want him to play in tournaments may have forgiven him, but not all people who have forgiven him want him to play in tournaments.
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On February 13 2015 10:13 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 09:58 Subversive wrote:On February 12 2015 07:41 lemmata wrote:
People continue to amaze me by
1) drawing the clearly false equivalence between forgiveness and permitting re-entry into the BW scene;
Most people who forgive him aren't saying this, whereas there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments. Perhaps. However, many people who posted in this thread certainly *are* saying exactly that. I agree that there is a silent majority that has forgiven without being okay with the match-fixers coming back to the scene, but wisely choose to stay out of the frustrating mud-wrestling that is any thread involving this topic. Heck, I should have done that. There's barely enough time in my day to enjoy BW, let alone participate in aggravating discussions about match-fixers. For the sake of completeness, your statement that "there's a lot of hatred mixed in with people saying he should never be allowed to play in tournaments" is true, but it's irrelevant to whether we can forgive and still believe that they should stay the heck out of tournaments. 1) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument against not allowing him to play in tournaments for other completely legitimate reasons. 2) The fact that people say that he shouldn't be allowed to play in tournaments because of their hatred is not a good argument for saying that allowing him to play in tournaments is a necessary condition for forgiveness. All people who want him to play in tournaments may have forgiven him, but not all people who have forgiven him want him to play in tournaments.
There's room for a wide range of opinions ranging from forgiveness and a desire to see him play, forgiveness and a belief he shouldn't play, ambivalence toward him personally and a belief he shouldn't be able to compete and hatred along with an insistence he not be welcomed back into the fold. Either way, it's just people's opinions. Personally, I like to be a contrarian, so I hate him but believe he'd be good for the scene if he returned, despite never being able to forgive him for his crimes against EsPoRtS.
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On February 13 2015 06:30 lemmata wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:46 Dazed_Spy wrote:Had to intervene even though I dont care about the general argument: they have a criminal record. That's a fact. As for that rehabilitation, let's not forget that Hwasin and Savior never spent a day in jail. That rehabilitation is all a figment of your imagination in their cases. Jail doesnt rehabilitate, and the notion of locking people up in a cage for months or years at a time because they tricked a few people for some money, is offensive and ridiculous. You can turn this into an irrelevant argument about processes that rehabilitate people if you really want to do so. I actually strongly agree with you that jail is not a good way. However, it still remains that there is no evidence of actual rehabilitation (be it jail OR something more helpful like emotionally connecting with their childhoods on a couch). Claiming (you didn't do it but others did) that they're rehabilitated is just wishful thinking, especially given the betting links on the bookmarks bar. I dont actually want to turn it into tangent on another topic, I just couldnt resist the urge  . But as for the rest of what you said: I dont think hwasin (etc) should be let back into professional starcraft, obviously their credibility is suspect and they'd almost certainly do more damage than good, merely by their presence. But in terms of...I'm not accusing you of this per se, but theres obviously a large segment of the foreign and korean fanbase that really is *mad* still. Theres been no proof of rehabilitation, yeah, true. Even if they went into a rehabilitation program, there would be no real proof. We just have to wait and see and observe their behaviour over a long period of time, theres no way to directly look into their brains. Hwasin, savior etc, should at least be forgiven insofar as they are not hounded and harassed by random strangers.
I dont know their lives all that intimately, but in the few interviews from the guilty progamers, all of them seem to strongly imply their utter pariahs. Koreas not a very forgiving society I suppose, and its not a good thing.
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everytime i see this thread bumped i imagine in my mind that hwasin has apologized for match fixing for the 100th time
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This happened a long time ago. The guy has apologized and moved on. He didn't try to worm his way back in. Cut him some slack, accept, and move on as well.
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On February 13 2015 18:47 rabidch wrote:
everytime i see this thread bumped i imagine in my mind that hwasin has apologized for match fixing for the 100th time
He's probably apologized for it thousands of times by now.
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51490 Posts
So.... the SSL champion sSak played some sponsor games against Hwasin.
Much of a catch 22, ey?
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EPT
