EPTHas BW turned into a macro game? - Page 3
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
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sCV
Jamaica246 Posts
i'm terran on C level pgt, i can always choose if i want fast game or macrobased game... and as most of us in a ladder, i often choose for some kind of rush - excluding some map tvt, where it's basically impossible to force something-... sure the level of play is more "equal" nowadays with vods-replays-culture and those who loss to a dt drop are called noob, but what about all the toss who lost to a nada/joyo push ? all noobs? and all the zerg loosing to a 8raxtech on r-point? all noobs again ? dont think so... i'm from italy and played since 99, only in the last 2 years i started to play "seriously" - meaning not only 3v3 sc ita-1, as most of my country does- and when i discovered the magic of the korean skilled pro i've watched a lot of vods,1st person vods and replays: i was amazed! then i started to want to understand where i'd could positioned myself in that world, so i started watchin european replays and play a lot 1v1, i wasn't absolutely amazed... every game ppl wait to come out with huge army, no micro intensive harass, no "strange" technics, nothing... and that's just because the game its 8 yrs old... those who one days were called noob got better and better and nowadays we're just skilled noobS, so we're scared, we lack of creativity, we choose to play safe huge macro battle and so on... we too worried of being watched as some who can lost to or because strange strat  gl brood war ! | ||
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decafchicken
United States20168 Posts
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Freezer_au
Australia1461 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13526 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
In regards to maps, imho, the best map ive seen last year was requiem. This has produced some kickass games as you would have seen on saturday. And luna is pretty boring, so map makers make more interesting maps like requiem. A style played is heavily dependant on the map, so creative map -> creative play? | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
On January 23 2006 18:52 decafchicken wrote: 2 base zvt is soooooo much easier than 1 base Yeah one base is just rolling the dice, all your opponent has to do is go "ok lemme just wait this out and get him when I am ready and not lose anything to his strat." Its really not viable as anything but a one-shot strat vs good players on normal maps(Something like bifrost being an exception). | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
1 base zerg is extremely viable vs 1 base terran as long as its a map that doesn't favor 2base zerg. on maps that favor 2base zerg, 1basing vs a terran is not a good choice. For example, why would you ever want to 1base on Luna when you can ALWAYS early expand and pull it off? So many maps allow for an easy natural that most people figure 2base zerg is the only viable strategy. Why is this so? Well, the terran player can easily take his own natural expansion, whether it be earlier or later, thus a 2base zerg strategy makes sense because it helps to counter the easy set of resources the terran is sure to get. Thus, the abundance of 2base-favoring maps is the main reason why so many people claim that 1basing zerg is impossible Luna is clearly a 2base favoring map, for the both zerg AND the terran. So, assuming that the zerg goes 1base, the terran EASILY has his own 2nd base right around the corner. But lets this theoretical map: Paranoid Androide where the first gas and mineral natural expansions do not exist. Therefore, the only expansions on the map are the mains, the high ground gas expansions, and the bottom left gas expansion. In this circumstance, clearly an early expand is not favored for the zerg player. However, many 1base strategies would work well, as the terran player would have an EXTREME difficulty securing a 2nd expansion, thus an aggressive 1basing zerg player could succeed in swinging an advantage in the early and midgames. Also, this overly ingrained "2base mindset" is largely the reason why so many players think that terran "own" zerg on island maps. Most players figure that a zerg player simply cannot compete with a terran on an island map, as the zerg and terran are even in resources in the early game. Again, this is simply not true. etc etc i'd write more but its bed time | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 23 2006 13:49 Liquid`Drone wrote: timing is just as important as before. in fact most really good players just have so good timing that their builds are timed to counter everything. or at least that's how it goes for terrans. toss still needs to alter their play. zvt is fun as hell though because it's possible to play a non-macro style of play there. problem is just that one tiny micro mistake can cost you the game then.. but then again, that's part of why bw is so cool, tiny details can decide the outcome. but yeah, pvt and tvp are sooooooooo much less fun now than before, which is mostly caused by the maps. I feel zvt/tvz have evolved in a positive way though, even if you play more of a macro style zvt it's still very cool because there's a lot of micro involved even then. (for example with mutas as zerg or m&m vs lurk as terran) zvp is more balanced than before and I like how that has developed. although I don't really like how every map has 2 ways to leave your base so lurker containment becomes void, as it is no longer overpowered anyway. (due to protoss players improving. ) Very good points, and I'd like to elaborate on them. TvZ has really evolved for the btter. You can't complain about missing the micro because it's there, and in fact, it's harder now than ever before. Okay, you don't see 1 rine vs 1 lurk anymore, but it's actually much trickier microing 4-5 groups of m&m is massive battles against well-micro'd ling/lurk/filer than it is to micro 1 rine vs 1 lurk anyway. So, when push comes to shove, we're talking about a match thats arguably more micro dependent as ever. Just, you don't notice that fact because you're too busy multitasking and dividing that micro among different groups. Oov is the only player I've seen pull off a first rate SK Terran with less than 250 apm, and I find that telling. Even fast players like Asserm have serious flaws in their game. Watch his minerals as they hit 200 and watch his rax as the lights go out and stay out for long periods of time. But in the same regard, it's more strategic than ever as well. Old fashioned TvZ often meant macro Zerg against a terran with a timed early attack who would then percede to play a defensive expansion killing game afterwards. Now, we see players using poor zerg into the long game, relying heavily on defiler tech. We see smart scourge use to kill dropships and zerg drops being used to get in the face of the terran. We see terrans countering with a much more diverse selection of builds, the inherant question of tank/vessel ratio and figuring out how to get aggressive in the late game. I like it. And I think these changes are largely due to the maps we play. Play pure Luna PvT and then go back to LT. All of a sudden, 2 gate gooning becomes a lot weaker. You need that robotics because drops are VERY viable as an option. Then play paranoid. Everyone complains about macro games, but if you want to stop with macro games, you need to stop with macro maps. Move away from Luna and R-Point into more rush based maps like paranoid, etc. And before I go to bed, I will just address one more fact: I have yet to lose with my recent fact/port build. Why? Because I use it when I'm in a spot where it will work fairly well, and because nobody is used to dealing with it anymore. They all get aggressive with their goons outside my base. Then 4 rines and a tank start raping their mining. Then they clear it and head back out as 4 vults and 2 tanks come back and finish the job. Of course, I reserve this build in most of my games, but if the opportunity is right, it's always there. | ||
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