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OK, this was inspired by 1) FA's reflective thread about zerg, and more importantly 2) watching some very new replays and some old, 'classic' replays.
In your opinion, has BW become what so many people without a real grasp of the game have called it: a mass unit game? Has dependence on a stable economy replaced reliance on micro and timing? I'm debating it in my mind. It seems to me that thanks partly to nada but moreso to the oov generation of terran, predictable macro builds are becoming the norm. Of course on the pro level we can see variety, but then again, I would venture to say that on the pro level too macro fights have become significantly more common.
Perhaps it is merely the games I have recently watched/played, but I am somewhat saddened by the rise of predictability across the board and the huge economy battles. Some people like it. How about you? Do you agree with my analysis? Do you like the rise of macro (if you agree that there has been such a rise?)
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yes bw has turn into a very common style id like to call boring, with a few rare players. Maybe its just me, but watching terran's mass for 20 min till there 200/200 3/3 tvp is pretty boring, PvP has always been pretty macro intensive, Todays TvT looks less micro intensive too, its pretty much like the TvP's Mass up enough tanks to defend a new expo, intill you expo enough and hi 200/200 then slowely take over there expansions... 
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
The reason you think this is because of the huge influx (spelling?) of FE for p/t. Namely with maps like Luna this has become familiarized and common. From there i would contend that p's and t's try to do that on alot of the other maps and it works out ok (some not so much ie P on Rush Hour = they bitch about it being a z map cause they forgot how to play outside of FE). I dont think its become fully a macro game, nobody will go anywhere STILL solely on macro. You have to have control of the stuff you make. YES this game features more macro now that P/T's think they have to get an expo as fast as the zerg does.
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Much harder to get at a top level nowadays because of that, everyone knows how to play safe with good macro. Was more fun when Terrans were easy to beat, just going dt drop, then pump units off 1 expand with 7 gates, i would win all the time, now everyone plays safe, Testiish, bleh
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.... yes
imo is very boring when players wait 200/200
when im in bnet i prefer to quit when players only expand and wait ... very booring
old school was very interesting a lot of micro and funny matches
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Norway28899 Posts
timing is just as important as before. in fact most really good players just have so good timing that their builds are timed to counter everything. or at least that's how it goes for terrans. toss still needs to alter their play.
zvt is fun as hell though because it's possible to play a non-macro style of play there. problem is just that one tiny micro mistake can cost you the game then.. but then again, that's part of why bw is so cool, tiny details can decide the outcome.
but yeah, pvt and tvp are sooooooooo much less fun now than before, which is mostly caused by the maps. I feel zvt/tvz have evolved in a positive way though, even if you play more of a macro style zvt it's still very cool because there's a lot of micro involved even then. (for example with mutas as zerg or m&m vs lurk as terran)
zvp is more balanced than before and I like how that has developed. although I don't really like how every map has 2 ways to leave your base so lurker containment becomes void, as it is no longer overpowered anyway. (due to protoss players improving. )
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The old ways of playing are less effective, it's not like people today have inferior micro than before, they just learned to effectively get alot of units and spend better.
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I like to play a macro game myself, but I agree that games with alot of harrass, drops, and micro are usually more entertaining. PvT is maybe the exception, but PvT just isn't exciting to watch at all IMO. I've been playing War3 lately, and I've found that I now enjoy War3 replays more than BW games. It feels like there is more creativity and less win-by-execution than BW, which in turns makes many BW players think it's easy.
I agree with control, Luna hugely popularized fast expansions for P/T. After a few months of all Luna, P/T players now play macro games everywhere unless it is strictly impossible. Just an example of the metagame changing, which is bound to happen over time, even though many feel BW has nearly reached strategic perfection.
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On January 23 2006 13:40 Fayth[pG] wrote:
Was more fun when Terrans were easy to beat, just going dt drop, then pump units off 1 expand with 7 gates, i would win all the time, now everyone plays safe, Testiish, bleh
yeah, when Terrans were easy to beat you were considered one of the best players of the world, picked as a favourite in every WCG since 2001.
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I thought about that too. Games were cooler before. But I think it's more of a trend.
If you look at ygclan replays for a period of time ...lets say ~~6 months for example, you see pretty much the same type of games...like lately. FD Terran toss, FE tvZ...and the game goes on pretty much the same. And if you look like a year ago everyone played differently, but all did the same thing. maybe it's mostly because those replays on ygclan etc are practicegames and those semi-pros or whatever they are, are just trying to improve their general gameplayu, not winning by/revealing cool strats.
Also the pro-level is a LOT higher then korean semi-pros, or "top foregners" which is very clear if you watched the blizzcon games etc.,.
Korean pros just played a lot more microintense and ..more perfect, not any mad macro games.
Well playing "perfect" would obviosly involve more micro, since a "perfect" player can do that at the same time as macroing.
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bw isnt fun anymore with terran.
If it wasnt so old id play another race = ) (zerg)
i dont like doing predictable builds everygame, fact port is worthless tvp now on most maps, aswell as alot of tvt builds being non viable unless they are used in a specific situation because of maps. Its pretty much all vulture/fast exp nowadays with the occasional fact port/2 port wraith. removing cliffs from maps i believe has greatly hindered the variety of play and caused much more games to involve fast expoing and such.
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BW hasn't turned into a macro game, people have just gotten a lot better at macro.
Instead of microing smaller groups of units, we see people microing huge armies more. Strong micro is still nothing short of vital, and people will have to learn how to enjoy micro on the macro scale as opposed to it being as simple as one handful of units against another handful.
I do think maps like Luna and Nostalgia strongly encourage (basically force) one specific style of play with absolutely no deviation, though, and that definitely gets boring. You could probably find a few pro TvP on Luna replays that looked identical down to starting locations and timing and unit counts and everything.
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CruiseR
Poland4014 Posts
I agree.
It can be seen in modern TvP's.
But i prefer Micro style (most of my tvps are 10-20minutes long;o) - like 1 exp then mass harrass -> go
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Well I definitely think that it now strongly emphasizes safe macro builds. But that's what the maps everybody uses now force you into more or less. You have to play the maps as much as anything else in a game so on something like luna you just simply can't play much else.
That's part of the reason I'm starting to tire of the game. PvT is almost the safe thing every game to me now, it's grown tedious. But legitimately a terran player just can't use a lot of old openings on these new maps.
IMO, what has happened recently is that BW has been "dumbed down" to an extent. PvT on luna (or basically any new map) you can do the same build every single freaking game and be fine. A lot of elements of the game have been removed, making it far easier for lower level players to perform. Hell, I've always hated LT and now I look at playing on it as a welcome change.
Obviously these maps are great for pro's to use, and I like most of them alot but it's quite annoying how almost all of the maps are made from basically the same mold. A lot of it has been done in the name of balance I understand, but I it's sucked a lot of fun out of a matchup I always loved the most.
PvZ I really don't notice it becoming that much different. Z still has plenty of things to do on all maps so the spice is still there. ZvP I do notice a lot more P's going fast expand (even on rush hour wtfh) but then again I remember lots of P's liked to do it on nost too. Bad P's think they have to fe so you're fine because they are bad and most likely would fe whether the maps were good for it or not. Good P's will mix it up so you're still fine.
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Everyones macro is so strong now that although its not a macro game, you cant capitilize on mistakes or a player being wide open for a minute as much. Particularly vs T, who always seem to have a backup defense setup quickly.
And the macro maps that are popular right now dont help. I think ZvT is pretty boring to play now since T just fast expands nearly every game.
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
the only matchup that is seriously fucked up is tvp, I'm fucking sick of playing this bullshit 200/200 take half the map than attack style terran's. In fact as soon as that started becoming a trend i started 5 zealot rushing everyone becuase i hate that boring shit. I did it so much (and was very successful with it) that I actually suck ass at pvt now, fuck you whoever made luna you killed my pvt.
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Norway10161 Posts
A lot of people say things I agree with, esp. Sadist. Part of the reason I'm not playing anymore is the lack of crativity among players and a lot of maps are just .. bad. Luna is the worst map introduced to bw since blizzard released BGH.
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UMS is the only way to go in 2006
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On January 23 2006 15:14 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
A lot of people say things I agree with, esp. Sadist. Part of the reason I'm not playing anymore is the lack of crativity among players and a lot of maps are just .. bad. Luna is the worst map introduced to bw since blizzard released BGH.
Exactly. Luna is what makes it boring.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
i agree with chris307. the macro aspect of starcraft was existent back in the day, but just sorely undeveloped. maybe we can expect another aspect that people haven't considered at all to come about.
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EPT
