EPTBesides, if you want to feel like a progamer, there's this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Fast_Expand_Forge_Walling#Popular_Maps_Examples
Your post-BW plans - Page 56
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Stratos
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Besides, if you want to feel like a progamer, there's this: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Fast_Expand_Forge_Walling#Popular_Maps_Examples | ||
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PurePwnageofTerran
268 Posts
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white_horse
1019 Posts
On May 14 2012 20:09 Darksoldierr wrote: In 2010 you cannot put a game out without Auto mine, without MBS, better unit control, shiny graphics and most important of all, you cannot copy a game and resell it for money. Dota2 is gonna be free with microtransations. Sc2 cannot pull microtransations, simply becouse it has no place in a game like Sc2. They had to change the game, there was no other way around. Dont mistaken me, i dont say it is good, just with the current generation out there, whos used to have tips popping up left and right on their screen. Most of the kids nowdays expect a game to easy to learn. And from a causal point of view, Sc2 is really good. Lot easier to get into than BW. Lets be honest with ourselves. If Blizzard remake BW, everything the same, new units in campign appears, maybe few soundtrack / unit sound changes, new graphics. How many would have bought it for a full price? How do you expect Blizz to make money out of it. Pretty much this. Blizzard knew about gamers' plans to run with SC2 as a new esport so they worked on balance issues and unit functions, etc. to make it possible but they are also in the business of selling as many copies to maximize profit, which means they have to make it as easy and accessible as possible to everyone. So you have two opposing forces - one wants to make the game highly dynamic, balanced, and reasonably difficult while the other wants to make the game as easy and dumbed-down for casual players. And the result is that you get a game that has no muscle as an esport. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
ESPORTS has helped to keep piracy at bay tho, since if you wanna play with the best you have to play on the official servers, but that's still niche and they have better ways of making money. I see SC2 as part of a new business model for mitigating piracy but still being able to make an RTS which isn't a monthly subscription. In that respect it's actually interesting, it's just too bad the game itself hurt Brood War so much, something which actually was a beautiful game and not just a business venture anymore. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 15 2012 00:01 Chef wrote: I don't think Blizzard looks at StarCraft II and thinks of selling copies and the main way of making money. They wanted to make money from royalties on ESPORTS and get move involved with that. Otherwise they would have just made another WoW game and made money off subscriptions. No. Nonononono. eSports (You're only suppose to all-caps it sarcastically) was not at all Blizzard's concern during the development of WoL, or even the first year after release. That's the source of many of its problems. They gave it lip-service, but most of the community's wishes were brushed aside in favor of rush maps aimed at casuals. Remember when they wanted one-third rush maps? They only cared about eSports to the extent they didn't want to be embarrassed in reviews. It wasn't that they wanted to make a real tournament successor and fucked it up, they legitimately weren't trying. They just wanted a game that was well remembered (and if SC2 wasn't a threat to BW and disappeared after a year or two, a lot more BW fans would simply remember it as the second-best RTS) It was only recently, when the SC2 scene started getting big and tossing money around, that Blizzard decided "eSports" was a thing worth giving a shit about, and started putting tournament maps in the ladder pool, etc. LoL and DOTA also helped light some fires under some asses. We'll see the results of that change in focus at MLG Anaheim when we see the new HotS build. The viper is an improvement. The oracle is a big improvement. Burrow-move banelings are a big improvement (because they'll require more map awareness lategame). Battle hellions are a small improvement, but David Kim said that Hellions may default in battle mode because it's easy for scrubs that way, and high level players will need a few more APM to transform them into the more useful at that level car hellions and that's cool too, and I find it nice that Blizz mentioned "mechanically harder" in a good light, even though it's literally 2 more APM. But SC2 is never going to be the game BW fans want. And the BW fans who hate SC2 at this point aren't going to be swayed by what are ultimately modest improvements, especially now that they have a much more visceral reason to hate the game. And I find that sad because the arguments they make against SC2 (the non-stupid ones, anyway) are arguments Blizzard needs to hear. I want people who'll demand more out of the game, or other games, or their own. I don't want those people leaving*. There's a huge amount of history in this forum, and I don't want to see it lost. I want, at the very least, a foreign BW scene to re-emerge, even a small one, and go around reminding SC2 fans of how much more their game could be, so they get restless, and start demanding more. I want BW to exist, as a symbol if nothing else. An example of what a true game should be. The archetype from which all eSports derive. I want it to remind people, daily, of the standard they should be demanding. And maybe LotV won't live up to that promise. It probably won't. But as long as there's that niggling voice in the back of people's heads going "but it could be better", then some day, some game, BW will rise again. *Except maybe Sawamura  | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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Daudr
Sweden275 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HEcFY.jpg) | ||
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Ideas
United States8082 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:04 Ribbon wrote: No. Nonononono. eSports (You're only suppose to all-caps it sarcastically) was not at all Blizzard's concern during the development of WoL, or even the first year after release. That's the source of many of its problems. They gave it lip-service, but most of the community's wishes were brushed aside in favor of rush maps aimed at casuals. Remember when they wanted one-third rush maps? They only cared about eSports to the extent they didn't want to be embarrassed in reviews. It wasn't that they wanted to make a real tournament successor and fucked it up, they legitimately weren't trying. They just wanted a game that was well remembered (and if SC2 wasn't a threat to BW and disappeared after a year or two, a lot more BW fans would simply remember it as the second-best RTS) It was only recently, when the SC2 scene started getting big and tossing money around, that Blizzard decided "eSports" was a thing worth giving a shit about, and started putting tournament maps in the ladder pool, etc. LoL and DOTA also helped light some fires under some asses. We'll see the results of that change in focus at MLG Anaheim when we see the new HotS build. The viper is an improvement. The oracle is a big improvement. Burrow-move banelings are a big improvement (because they'll require more map awareness lategame). Battle hellions are a small improvement, but David Kim said that Hellions may default in battle mode because it's easy for scrubs that way, and high level players will need a few more APM to transform them into the more useful at that level car hellions and that's cool too, and I find it nice that Blizz mentioned "mechanically harder" in a good light, even though it's literally 2 more APM. But SC2 is never going to be the game BW fans want. And the BW fans who hate SC2 at this point aren't going to be swayed by what are ultimately modest improvements, especially now that they have a much more visceral reason to hate the game. And I find that sad because the arguments they make against SC2 (the non-stupid ones, anyway) are arguments Blizzard needs to hear. I want people who'll demand more out of the game, or other games, or their own. I don't want those people leaving*. There's a huge amount of history in this forum, and I don't want to see it lost. I want, at the very least, a foreign BW scene to re-emerge, even a small one, and go around reminding SC2 fans of how much more their game could be, so they get restless, and start demanding more. I want BW to exist, as a symbol if nothing else. An example of what a true game should be. The archetype from which all eSports derive. I want it to remind people, daily, of the standard they should be demanding. And maybe LotV won't live up to that promise. It probably won't. But as long as there's that niggling voice in the back of people's heads going "but it could be better", then some day, some game, BW will rise again. *Except maybe Sawamura the only way blizzard will decide to make drastic changes is if it gets some real competition by another RTS that eats away at SC2's user-base in a noticeable way (and of course, that this new RTS is being played becuase it offers features that SC2 does not). blizzard has no reason to make any meaningful changes to sc2 as long as they have a monopoly on competitive RTS games like they do right now. fuck why can't some korean developer make some awesome RTS game based off of studying BW and with feedback from kespa players? most of OGN's programming already is weird korean games like sudden attack and kartrider, no? You'd think at least 1 korean developer would try to make an RTS for esports by now :\ | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:14 Ideas wrote: the only way blizzard will decide to make drastic changes is if it gets some real competition by another RTS that eats away at SC2's user-base in a noticeable way (and of course, that this new RTS is being played becuase it offers features that SC2 does not). blizzard has no reason to make any meaningful changes to sc2 as long as they have a monopoly on competitive RTS games like they do right now. fuck why can't some korean developer make some awesome RTS game based off of studying BW and with feedback from kespa players? most of OGN's programming already is weird korean games like sudden attack and kartrider, no? You'd think at least 1 korean developer would try to make an RTS for esports by now :\ Heh, turns out its not easy to make a good game and Sc2 is probably the best RTS games for competition after BW. Its a bit easier to copy an FPS than a strategy game. | ||
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Daudr
Sweden275 Posts
On May 15 2012 04:14 Ideas wrote: the only way blizzard will decide to make drastic changes is if it gets some real competition by another RTS that eats away at SC2's user-base in a noticeable way (and of course, that this new RTS is being played becuase it offers features that SC2 does not). blizzard has no reason to make any meaningful changes to sc2 as long as they have a monopoly on competitive RTS games like they do right now. fuck why can't some korean developer make some awesome RTS game based off of studying BW and with feedback from kespa players? most of OGN's programming already is weird korean games like sudden attack and kartrider, no? You'd think at least 1 korean developer would try to make an RTS for esports by now :\ Wasn't there already some attempt to emulate the success of BW, with a Korean RTS way back (just like Sudden Attack to Counter-Strike)? It didn't really work out (obviously) and it just turned into capital ships vs capital ships in the end, if I remember correctly. Does anyone else remember what I'm talking about, or am I just hallucinating? | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On May 15 2012 01:04 Ribbon wrote: No. Nonononono. eSports (You're only suppose to all-caps it sarcastically) was not at all Blizzard's concern during the development of WoL, or even the first year after release. That's the source of many of its problems. They gave it lip-service, but most of the community's wishes were brushed aside in favor of rush maps aimed at casuals. Remember when they wanted one-third rush maps? They only cared about eSports to the extent they didn't want to be embarrassed in reviews. It wasn't that they wanted to make a real tournament successor and fucked it up, they legitimately weren't trying. They just wanted a game that was well remembered (and if SC2 wasn't a threat to BW and disappeared after a year or two, a lot more BW fans would simply remember it as the second-best RTS) This doesn't go hand in hand with the fact that they tried to hinder BW and Kespa. Cmon the second thought everyone had since SC2 was revealed was "it will make a huge foreign progaming scene" (the first thought being "oh awesome, the successor of BW"). Saying that Blizzard didn't aim for the esports scene implies that Blizzard was completely ignorant to the achievements of BW and it's proscene. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 15 2012 06:59 blubbdavid wrote: This doesn't go hand in hand with the fact that they tried to hinder BW and Kespa. Cmon the second thought everyone had since SC2 was revealed was "it will make a huge foreign progaming scene" (the first thought being "oh awesome, the successor of BW"). Saying that Blizzard didn't aim for the esports scene implies that Blizzard was completely ignorant to the achievements of BW and it's proscene. Out of all three races in the sequel, only one race stood out with great dynamics. As many of you can guess, it is of course the Terran race. They completely disregarded the lore of the other two race by putting generic alien for the Protoss (i.e. Collosi) and most of those units are just bland. But then you have to be reasonable. The producer of the game used to be a Command and Conquer guy. So of course the Terran race would be the most exhilarating as the race itself is very similar to the ones of that series. We are not playing a game of StarCraft Universe. We are playing Command and Conquer on the space. The clear resolution is to hire one producer for each race because clearly Dustin B is just not able to match the originality of the space vikings with the Swarm and the Evangelists. | ||
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Ideas
United States8082 Posts
On May 15 2012 07:41 Xiphos wrote: Out of all three races in the sequel, only one race stood out with great dynamics. As many of you can guess, it is of course the Terran race. They completely disregarded the lore of the other two race by putting generic alien for the Protoss (i.e. Collosi) and most of those units are just bland. But then you have to be reasonable. The producer of the game used to be a Command and Conquer guy. So of course the Terran race would be the most exhilarating as the race itself is very similar to the ones of that series. We are not playing a game of StarCraft Universe. We are playing Command and Conquer on the space. The clear resolution is to hire one producer for each race because clearly Dustin B is just not able to match the originality of the space vikings with the Swarm and the Evangelists. i think you give browder far too much credit for the design of sc2. sure he is the lead designer, but there is a whole team of designers that worked on the game for years. there seems to be a little bit of CnC influence in the unit design, but to point to one guy and say HE JUST MADE EVERYTHING LIKE CNC is a vast overstatement. blizzard as a whole company created sc2, not just dustin browder. | ||
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UTL_Unlimited
Korea (South)353 Posts
On May 15 2012 05:03 Daudr wrote: Wasn't there already some attempt to emulate the success of BW, with a Korean RTS way back (just like Sudden Attack to Counter-Strike)? It didn't really work out (obviously) and it just turned into capital ships vs capital ships in the end, if I remember correctly. Does anyone else remember what I'm talking about, or am I just hallucinating? Atrox. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 15 2012 08:00 Ideas wrote: i think you give browder far too much credit for the design of sc2. sure he is the lead designer, but there is a whole team of designers that worked on the game for years. there seems to be a little bit of CnC influence in the unit design, but to point to one guy and say HE JUST MADE EVERYTHING LIKE CNC is a vast overstatement. blizzard as a whole company created sc2, not just dustin browder. *sigh* Thanks a lot for wiping out the remaining of loyalty that I had for the company. I honest thought that DB orchestrated the game. But now that the fact that the entire company had a say in the design to the game, it makes me yearn more for that dream game team with Chris Metzen leading the fleet. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 15 2012 06:59 blubbdavid wrote: This doesn't go hand in hand with the fact that they tried to hinder BW and Kespa Sure it does. They thought Koreans and like 20 people on TeamLiquid would be into it as a competitive scene, and they wanted to make money off it. They just didn't think they'd make much money. It was worth mentioning, but not worth listening to. That's why the were asking for a cut from KeSPA, as opposed to demanding KeSPA shut down altogether. You saw that all the time in how Blizzard said they wanted maps easy for casuals, etc. It was very clear from listening to them that five noobs who bought the game were more important than one competitive player. They have completely dropped that rhetoric, starting with the "all tournament maps!" ladder season, which had one bad casual map, Entombed Valley (not yet used in tournaments) 6 tournament maps, and the ability to downvote three, with Blizzard explicitly saying you'd probably want to downvote the casual maps, and have one downvote left for your least favorite tournament map. Then they started putting GSL and ESV maps in the ladder pool. These are recent developments, and they're only happening because the SC2 crowd at Blizzcon was bigger than the WoW crowd. None of this means they're going to turn SC2 into a real successor to BW. HotS will have modest improvements and the SC2 scene will be happy with it making the game better, but it's not going to convince anyone who's still not digging SC2. I'm just saying the history. They did not care until a little after the HotS reveal in Blizzcon, after which they did the community map contest on TL and then, and only then, did they treat "eSports" as a real demographic worth catering to with more than lip service. (A GSTL finals game losing connection to bNet and Browder and the Blizz CEO being in the middle of a furious crowd chanting for LAN probably also helped). And even now, we're not the sole concern. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
fuck why can't some korean developer make some awesome RTS game based off of studying BW and with feedback from kespa players? most of OGN's programming already is weird korean games like sudden attack and kartrider, no? You'd think at least 1 korean developer would try to make an RTS for esports by now :\ Hahaha that would have been hilarious. A knock off KeSPA brand Brood War that they don't have to pay royalties for... I wouldn't be surprised if they tried and either didn't get off the drawing board or didn't test well. It was commonplace to call the success of BW both as a phenomenon and as a balanced and diverse gameplay was a total fluke. You kinda see it with SC2 where their constant solution to balance is to make the units less interesting, and you can imagine how difficult it would be to get the whole country playing knock off Brood War even if it was free and it was amazing. Sudden Strike worked because it was easy to copy the Counter Strike model and not be sued because hey, every shooter looks like that. But if you copied all the unique units from Brood War? Knock off reaver, knock off lurkers, knock off marines and medics... I dunno, that would cause controversy if not a lawsuit. I remember back in the day players like Grrr and other random pros always talked about being interviewed by developers trying to create a new RTS, but did anything ever come of those? I think knockoff freeware Brood War would have been amazing, but I guess the Koreans got used to thinking of Brood War as freeware already even though it really turned out Blizzard wanted to protect their IP and screw up the only altruistic thing a company like Blizzard could have done. Business is business and altruism doesn't make money, but damn I really wish the CEO had thought "Fuck it, let them have it, what they're doing is amazing and I like it enough on a personal level not to care about increasing Blizzard's profits by some infintismal margin." So many developers look at a game they made 10 or 15 years ago and say 'ok, it can be freeware we don't care,' if that had happened with BW it would have been truly beautiful. Also Ribbon, you're just wrong. Years before SC2 was in beta, when it was just random anouncements and empty promises and alpha versions at Blizzcons, they announced very clearly that they intended to make an ESPORT out of it and facilitate those who wanted to make an ESPORT out of it. And they completely delivered. To say Blizzard saw it as an ESPORT after the fact is absurdly dense. All your points about short rush distances etc were designed to make action packed short and specatator friendly games. All those observer tools were made for ESPORTS. Talking to GOM and getting in Korea and all that shit... that is ESPORTS. I can't believe you'd even bother arguing it wasn't. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On May 15 2012 11:09 Chef wrote: Also Ribbon, you're just wrong. Years before SC2 was in beta, when it was just random anouncements and empty promises and alpha versions at Blizzcons, they announced very clearly that they intended And it was lip service because of how much they ignored the community prior to last November or so. They wanted rush maps for casuals; no one in the competitive scene like them, and they didn't care. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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