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On May 13 2012 22:29 Mr. PotatoHead wrote:
I am also sad to see BW go.
But on the bright side, maybe with all the BW people switching to SC2 we will finally have the voices we need to force Blizzard to make SC2 an actual successor to SC1, instead of just a different game.
I like this attitude. Much more upbeat than the despairing or disparaging.
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On May 13 2012 23:52 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 22:29 Mr. PotatoHead wrote:
I am also sad to see BW go.
But on the bright side, maybe with all the BW people switching to SC2 we will finally have the voices we need to force Blizzard to make SC2 an actual successor to SC1, instead of just a different game. I like this attitude. Much more upbeat than the despairing or disparaging.
Now that Blizz is making money off the competitive scene, they seem to be a little more receptive to that kind of thing. Go spam the BNet forums if you're so inclined; it got community maps on the ladder, so there's a track record.
(Be warned: Bnet forum is full of idiots)
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BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window.
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On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window.
The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around.
Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion!
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China7935 Posts
On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion!
Those things are about as taxing as scratching your nose for players that spend 8-10 hours a day over the course of many years playing bw competitively. Macro isn't exactly much of a deciding factor in BW these days. Game sense, timing, control, series psychology/preparation and decision making in general are what separates the very best from your avarage b-teamer and those things are much more intriguing than impeccable macro imho. And if someone has ridiculously good multitasking, there will obviously be other ways of utilizing that in sc2..
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On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion!
I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be?
Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things.
I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD.
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On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD.
I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players.
The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive.
On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it.
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Hey,don't forget spawning 11 casters at a time, spamming a spell that auto hits, chains and freezes any units and does a pretty decent amount of dmg.
Then,let's watch as each "pro"banks 5K and remaxes into each other for two rounds
OR
base race after base race after base race.
man,I'm way too mad about this.
:/
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On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it.
He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic.
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On May 13 2012 23:52 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 22:29 Mr. PotatoHead wrote:
I am also sad to see BW go.
But on the bright side, maybe with all the BW people switching to SC2 we will finally have the voices we need to force Blizzard to make SC2 an actual successor to SC1, instead of just a different game. I like this attitude. Much more upbeat than the despairing or disparaging.
Yeah attitudes good and all but good luck with getting dustin browder on the same page as tl 
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On May 14 2012 10:53 rift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it. He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic.
Weren't BW micro skills in particular developed to counter the naturally bad choices the AI tends to make on its own. Like Units traveling in a single file, or fighitng over the same attack point and sometimes taking the least efficient path possible? BW pros had to develop the skills to tame the AI in order to maximize unit effectiveness. Can't SC2 have a similar development where pros will have to develop skills to counter the natural tendencies of the units to maximize their effectiveness for a given situation.
Arguably, micro managing multi pronged attacks for example are difficult in SC2 because the AI tends to want to ball up. Developing that might be a differentiable skill later on in SC2. Or being to efficiently and quickly reinforce particular sections of your army during a battle instead of letting units wander to the most "efficient" position could be something. Obviously Im spitballing here and Im not saying some changes are not needed, but perhaps different skills sets will come about as previously skills are streamlined.
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On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion!
I honestly curious how many BW fans would like SC2 if it had single building selectiong and 12-man control groups and thus required an extra 50 APM, but it looked exactly the same?
Also, to be fair, ideal Protoss macro does actually require you to go back to your base and indidually select mutilple production buildings one at a time (for chrono boosting them), you can just get further on EZMODOing it than in BW. I think you can get warpgate research to finish 40 seconds faster with perfect boosts, for instance. For Zerg, lategame creep spread can actually be pretty mechnically challenging, just because they're all over the map and are nearly impossible to hotkey hoykey, and it's one of the only things in SC2 sufficiently challenging that people can impress on the basis of a good spread alone.
And Terran....is pretty EZmode in the macro, yeah. I guess they have to come back to their base to build stuff, but so do Protoss, and protoss need to look a pylon to warp stuff in.
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On May 14 2012 14:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 10:53 rift wrote:On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it. He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic. Weren't BW micro skills in particular developed to counter the naturally bad choices the AI tends to make on its own. Like Units traveling in a single file, or fighitng over the same attack point and sometimes taking the least efficient path possible? BW pros had to develop the skills to tame the AI in order to maximize unit effectiveness. Can't SC2 have a similar development where pros will have to develop skills to counter the natural tendencies of the units to maximize their effectiveness for a given situation. Arguably, micro managing multi pronged attacks for example are difficult in SC2 because the AI tends to want to ball up. Developing that might be a differentiable skill later on in SC2. Or being to efficiently and quickly reinforce particular sections of your army during a battle instead of letting units wander to the most "efficient" position could be something. Obviously Im spitballing here and Im not saying some changes are not needed, but perhaps different skills sets will come about as previously skills are streamlined.
The Brood War micro that we talk about is not fighting the AI or the interface, but rather techniques used to greatly increase the effectiveness of units. For example, mutalisks can be stacked by being grouped with a distant unit to allow them to be controled in a very precise manner. A player with good mutalisk control will dart in with the mutalisks fire a single shot and then move away to minimize fire. A good player can synchronize this movement with the cooldown of the mutalisks' attack.
Another example is reaver micro. It involves dropping a reaver from a shuttle to fire a scarab, and then picking the reaver up once again to avoid damage. There is a specific technique involved in maintaining motion on the shuttle, in order to pick up the reaver without losing momentum. A good player will also know where to target fire the reaver in order to maximize scarab damage and avoid dudding.
Most other units in Brood War have specific micro techniques associated with them as well. A few examples are using dragoons to defuse mines without an observer, air unit stacking and moving shot, and carrier micro. In SC2 these techniques are almost entirely absent.
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On May 14 2012 15:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I honestly curious how many BW fans would like SC2 if it had single building selectiong and 12-man control groups and thus required an extra 50 APM, but it looked exactly the same? Also, to be fair, ideal Protoss macro does actually require you to go back to your base and indidually select mutilple production buildings one at a time (for chrono boosting them), you can just get further on EZMODOing it than in BW. I think you can get warpgate research to finish 40 seconds faster with perfect boosts, for instance. For Zerg, lategame creep spread can actually be pretty mechnically challenging, just because they're all over the map and are nearly impossible to hotkey hoykey, and it's one of the only things in SC2 sufficiently challenging that people can impress on the basis of a good spread alone. And Terran....is pretty EZmode in the macro, yeah. I guess they have to come back to their base to build stuff, but so do Protoss, and protoss need to look a pylon to warp stuff in.
I was thinking of starting a blog discussion about a similar topic. Basically it was going to be a creative brainstormy sort of topic addressed to BW fans. Instead of a general "How would you fix SC2", it would come with a series of basic assumptions that are most unlikely to be changed. Such as the general engine used for SC2, its art style, etc. The goal would be too see how few changes people would like to see for them to currently enjoy SC2. But I figured it would end up an SC2 vs. BW flamefest, so I haven't made it. Posts that give thought to a specific change would be given more consideration then those that say scrap all the units for example.
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On May 14 2012 15:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I honestly curious how many BW fans would like SC2 if it had single building selectiong and 12-man control groups and thus required an extra 50 APM, but it looked exactly the same? Also, to be fair, ideal Protoss macro does actually require you to go back to your base and indidually select mutilple production buildings one at a time (for chrono boosting them), you can just get further on EZMODOing it than in BW. I think you can get warpgate research to finish 40 seconds faster with perfect boosts, for instance. For Zerg, lategame creep spread can actually be pretty mechnically challenging, just because they're all over the map and are nearly impossible to hotkey hoykey, and it's one of the only things in SC2 sufficiently challenging that people can impress on the basis of a good spread alone. And Terran....is pretty EZmode in the macro, yeah. I guess they have to come back to their base to build stuff, but so do Protoss, and protoss need to look a pylon to warp stuff in.
I would hate it because the graphics make it so difficult to see what's going on. You would also need to includes magic box, automine, bad AI, and so on.
+ Show Spoiler +in fact, you may as well make it BW o.O
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On May 14 2012 15:44 Pelopidas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 14:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On May 14 2012 10:53 rift wrote:On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it. He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic. Weren't BW micro skills in particular developed to counter the naturally bad choices the AI tends to make on its own. Like Units traveling in a single file, or fighitng over the same attack point and sometimes taking the least efficient path possible? BW pros had to develop the skills to tame the AI in order to maximize unit effectiveness. Can't SC2 have a similar development where pros will have to develop skills to counter the natural tendencies of the units to maximize their effectiveness for a given situation. Arguably, micro managing multi pronged attacks for example are difficult in SC2 because the AI tends to want to ball up. Developing that might be a differentiable skill later on in SC2. Or being to efficiently and quickly reinforce particular sections of your army during a battle instead of letting units wander to the most "efficient" position could be something. Obviously Im spitballing here and Im not saying some changes are not needed, but perhaps different skills sets will come about as previously skills are streamlined. The Brood War micro that we talk about is not fighting the AI or the interface, but rather techniques used to greatly increase the effectiveness of units. For example, mutalisks can be stacked by being grouped with a distant unit to allow them to be controled in a very precise manner. A player with good mutalisk control will dart in with the mutalisks fire a single shot and then move away to minimize fire. A good player can synchronize this movement with the cooldown of the mutalisks' attack. Another example is reaver micro. It involves dropping a reaver from a shuttle to fire a scarab, and then picking the reaver up once again to avoid damage. There is a specific technique involved in maintaining motion on the shuttle, in order to pick up the reaver without losing momentum. A good player will also know where to target fire the reaver in order to maximize scarab damage and avoid dudding. Most other units in Brood War have specific micro techniques associated with them as well. A few examples are using dragoons to defuse mines without an observer, air unit stacking and moving shot, and carrier micro. In SC2 these techniques are almost entirely absent.
Thanks for the quality reply. Usually dont get explained examples like that. So you honestly think there is no possible outlet for SC2 versions of these BW tactics involving unit control and manipulation? I'll defer my point if there is an inherent design problem preventing this, but I thought the biggest reason such subtle and creative advances are not used in SC2 was that they are not currently a competitive necessity. Its far more immeadiately rewarding to develop general macro/micro skills and balance then focusing on such particular unit control and combos.
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On May 14 2012 15:34 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I honestly curious how many BW fans would like SC2 if it had single building selectiong and 12-man control groups and thus required an extra 50 APM, but it looked exactly the same?
None?
MBS and control groups sizes are minor in the long list of problems people have in transitioning from BW to SC2. Even during beta the majority of complaints weren't about MBS or Unit selection, it was the utter lack of meaningful micro / boring staple units / deathball syndrome.
On May 14 2012 14:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 10:53 rift wrote:On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it. He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic. Weren't BW micro skills in particular developed to counter the naturally bad choices the AI tends to make on its own. Like Units traveling in a single file, or fighitng over the same attack point and sometimes taking the least efficient path possible? BW pros had to develop the skills to tame the AI in order to maximize unit effectiveness. Can't SC2 have a similar development where pros will have to develop skills to counter the natural tendencies of the units to maximize their effectiveness for a given situation. Arguably, micro managing multi pronged attacks for example are difficult in SC2 because the AI tends to want to ball up. Developing that might be a differentiable skill later on in SC2. Or being to efficiently and quickly reinforce particular sections of your army during a battle instead of letting units wander to the most "efficient" position could be something. Obviously Im spitballing here and Im not saying some changes are not needed, but perhaps different skills sets will come about as previously skills are streamlined.
No, most of micro tricks in BW has nothing to do with inherant unit AI. Only thing that comes close would be pre-spreading zealots/lings / Scourge Cloning and the latter is arguable from a balance perspective.
Even tekken goons has nothing to do with Goon AI since its consistant with how all AI deal with spider mines (when set to attack move stop and attack spidermines when they pop up).
Most of BW's interesting micro has nothing to do with Unit AI limitation but breaking what a unit can do.
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It is sad that many persons think that, the skill from BW come from fighting the bad AI...actually, the bad AI increases only the global difficulty of the game, the real skill come from elsewhere
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On May 14 2012 16:48 Garmer wrote:
It is sad that many persons think that, the skill from BW come from fighting the bad AI...actually, the bad AI increases only the global difficulty of the game, the real skill come from elsewhere
Im not saying all skill, Im saying it is the impetus for particular skill development. Or at least I was suggesting it. Im sure over time micro development was based more on what the other races were learning what to do or styles they were adapting to rather then trying to gain more control over your units. I was saying early on, maybe a couple years or so in, the original reason for a lot of unit tricks was to overriding their inherent nature and then see what they were capable of doing then.
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On May 14 2012 16:18 wassbix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 15:34 Ribbon wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I honestly curious how many BW fans would like SC2 if it had single building selectiong and 12-man control groups and thus required an extra 50 APM, but it looked exactly the same? None? MBS and control groups sizes are minor in the long list of problems people have in transitioning from BW to SC2. Even during beta the majority of complaints weren't about MBS or Unit selection, it was the utter lack of meaningful micro / boring staple units / deathball syndrome.
It's just weird that the mechanics argument is the one I keep hearing. The BW community always had its APM fetishists, and the D- guys with 300 APM I beat with my 60 because they don't know what they're doing, but the more you listen to the BW debates, the more it sounds like there's a subsection of the BW community who only like the game 'cause it's hard.
There are a lot of better reasons to like BW, and to like BW over SC2 (skirmishes all over the map being my big one), but I'm curious why the "it's harder" argument is the one I hear the most.
To flip the question on it's head: Let's have a hypothetical. Blizzard releases SC2, and it's almost exactly like BW. It's a stunningly faithful remake, more so than a sequel. Same units, same micro tricks, even the same bugs that get used in pro BW (pylon glitching through minerals etc), with just a new campaign. But they decide to make it more accessible to get in to, so they add MBS, Unlimited Unit Selection, and smart-cast, as well as some other things no one's objected to (not neeeding to open ports, auto-matchmaking, etc).
If THAT were the SC2 we were talking about, where everything was exactly the same but easier, would that be fine for you?
In fact, to branch out, if you were told to design SC2, and to make it a distinct game, what -SPECIFICALLY - would you do to make a sequel distinctly different yet worthy of the name. And don't just say "micro and interesting units". I'm really legitimately curious what you or any other BW fan'd make. (I'd be fine with easymodo BW)
On May 14 2012 14:47 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2012 10:53 rift wrote:On May 14 2012 07:03 Pelopidas wrote:On May 14 2012 05:02 densha wrote:On May 14 2012 00:43 Xiphos wrote:On May 13 2012 23:59 Stratos wrote:
BW isn't going anywhere, it's just the korean proscene dying and people leaving in consequence. I'm not saying this to make anyone feel "guilty", but to point out that anyone who loves the game can still get an overwhelming amount of outstanding BW content today. It's not going to be the same, but it's not going to die any time soon either. You better be aware of this before you throw it out of the window. The foreign scene i.e. ISL still have very exciting plays from players. Yesterday game between Ace and doty was nail biting with actions all over the place, impeccable defence from both of those players and great micromanagement. As long as the magic is still there, I will still be around. Funny thing is that I found myself actually captivated by the SC2 plays couple of days ago only to realize that they are playing with MBS, Automine and smartcasting that doesn't require that much multitask to pull off. I think, to a extend, years of watching BW ingrained my notion that you need to go back to your base to macro and select workers to mine will actually help me to watch SC2. I can simply imagine that those things still exist in the sequel and thus elevate the level of play. so yeah BW guys, use the delusion! I think it's also a good idea to remember that both players are on equal footing in each game, only held back by their skill levels. If everyone has MBS, then what can they do with that extra time and APM? If you don't have to worry about manually selecting workers to mine, where else can your attention be? Theoretically, SC2 should allow for more players to focus more on micro and multitasking in other ways. Now that's not to say you don't have to spend time at your base or that macro is totally easy, but at the pro level we should see some amazing things. I don't think that has come to fruition completely, though. Whether that's design or meta-game or player skill is an open question. I personally think it has to do with SC2 being a bit faster paced combined with too heavily rewarding the "death ball" style (specifically of Protoss). However, I fully believe that it will only take one or two revolutionists to see SC2 in a way that no one else sees it right now. Judging by Flash's recent interviews, I think he could be that player. Then again, just when he gets warmed up, HOTS will be out and it's all back to being unknown again XD. I see this crock constantly posted in the SC2 section of teamliquid and it is completely untrue. In Brood War players have to prioritize their attention. They must decide whether the opportunity cost of in depth micro is worth it. The decision on where to focus attention adds another layer of strategy to BW that is not present in SC2, and seperates good players from great players. All reducing the multitask requirement in SC2 does is dumb down the game and reduce the difference between players. The micro and multitasking potential present in SC2 is already present in Broodwar. Drops all over the map can already happen in Broodwar, crazy unit splitting can already happen in Brood War, and multipronged attacks can already happen in Brood war. In Brood War these attacks can only be efficiently executed by the best, and that makes it that much more impressive. On the contrary, units in SC2 rarely benefit from good control. There is no carrier micro, reaver micro, siege tanks auto target, marauders slow and remove the possibility of micro against them except in limited scenarios, zerglings auto surround, forcefields cannot be mircoed against, and the AI forms a tight ball that automatically targets for optimal. All evidence at this point indicates that Browder does not want Brood War style micro in his game, and has actively worked on limiting it. He's not actively working on limiting it. He's just too ignorant to care. And the IT'S NOT BROOD WAR wall comes up as the defense against making the game more dynamic. Weren't BW micro skills in particular developed to counter the naturally bad choices the AI tends to make on its own. Like Units traveling in a single file, or fighitng over the same attack point and sometimes taking the least efficient path possible? BW pros had to develop the skills to tame the AI in order to maximize unit effectiveness. Can't SC2 have a similar development where pros will have to develop skills to counter the natural tendencies of the units to maximize their effectiveness for a given situation. Arguably, micro managing multi pronged attacks for example are difficult in SC2 because the AI tends to want to ball up. Developing that might be a differentiable skill later on in SC2. Or being to efficiently and quickly reinforce particular sections of your army during a battle instead of letting units wander to the most "efficient" position could be something. Obviously Im spitballing here and Im not saying some changes are not needed, but perhaps different skills sets will come about as previously skills are streamlined.
No, most of micro tricks in BW has nothing to do with inherant unit AI. Only thing that comes close would be pre-spreading zealots/lings / Scourge Cloning and the latter is arguable from a balance perspective. [/quote]
http://i.imgur.com/uBzf9.gif
Anyway, I don't think you can separate micro from AI. The big issue people have with SC2 is exactly that AI, and I hear the APM fetishists constantly mention the dragoon as being a great unit precisely because it was completely retarded.
I don't think the APM argument is a very convincing one, because, while I understand that the terrible interface makes BW more challenging and skill ceiling and all that that makes it's an S-class eSport, but it doesn't make the game sound fun to play, and thus doesn't do BW justice.
On May 14 2012 16:48 Garmer wrote:
It is sad that many persons think that, the skill from BW come from fighting the bad AI...actually, the bad AI increases only the global difficulty of the game, the real skill come from elsewhere
Is overcoming difficulty not skill? The real FUN is elsewhere, though.
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EPT
