On April 07 2012 03:16 Rotcod wrote: Cant really respond to everyone that commented on the videos but I didnt mean to QQ I just thought that maybe people who watched mainly bw hadnt seen some glimpses of godly micro thats being developed at the cutting edge of sc2 ^^
at the moment its still more profitable to practice build orders/macro than micro but in the future stuff like this will be more the focus imo
another video
Ironically, this is one of the few BW-esque aspects of SC2, and yet SC2 elitists don't want SC2 to be more like BW... T______T
I dont really care for bw, it wasnt my scene. I'm simply arguing that sc2 is a good game. If being like BW makes it a good game that great.
Stating that its like BW doesnt make it worse.
Reading comprehension, sir.
Where did I ever say being similar to BW is making it worse? On the contrary, most of the time when an SC2 fan brings up a fun, entertaining aspect of SC2, it's one of those that are similar to BW (point in case: mechanical micro techniques like Marines vs. Banelings, out of ordinary use of units like Baneling landmines or using Auto-Turrets to confuse Siege Tanks, multi-pronged attacks, macro games, etc.; most of the things that are different from BW, aside from UI changes, are complained about).
Why the sad face then?
Edit: why not 'yay this kind of cool stuff is going to be done by bw progamers '
On April 07 2012 02:53 N.geNuity wrote: It's much easier to dodge storms when you can grab 30 units in 1 click. Now units do clumps up more in sc2, yada yada, but storms hitting without smart casting and players dodging storms well with like 30 hydralisks is more micro intensive. No matter what anyone tries to say otherwise.
When hitting storms is easier, dodging storms becomes harder. Also, unlimited unit selection is not a boon to storm-dodging, as it is much easier to spread your units when a drag-box over your army only selects a portion of that army (like in BW) as opposed to your entire army. That storm-dodge video is actually very impressive.
*facepalm*
In current BW ZvP, zergs have to control their hydralisks well so that not only they dodge the storms when they're casted, they have to make sure they pull away the right units before the hydralisks coming from the back actually block the hydralisks from running away from templar+goon+zeal army.
In SC2, you can easily pull back everything at once.
Did you actually watch the video that is being discussed; or play sc2 for that matter? Dragon did not pull back all his units at once. Doing so would be bad. Microing hydra's against protoss in BW is hard. So is microing bio against protoss in SC2. At our level, both are impossibly hard. At the top level, both are still hard enough for it never to be mastered. Don't hate on sc2 micro just because you don't like the game. That video was pure skill.
I was honestly going to apologize for not watching that so-called "amazing" marine split (still nothing compared to what you actually have to do in BW, because you can only select 12 units and can split using that, instead of selecting the whole army then start splitting units up, which still makes it much easier than BW splitting), until you started to generalize and use "BW players hating on SC2" card.
In a game where the units are actually given a 'brain' as opposed to the dragoons, goliaths, and other retarded units of BW, mechanics become so much easier that people can start doing "fancy" stuff without reaching the god-tier skill level. Am I saying that it's a bad thing? Not necessarily because I don't have to deal with retarded stalkers.
On April 07 2012 03:16 Rotcod wrote: Cant really respond to everyone that commented on the videos but I didnt mean to QQ I just thought that maybe people who watched mainly bw hadnt seen some glimpses of godly micro thats being developed at the cutting edge of sc2 ^^
at the moment its still more profitable to practice build orders/macro than micro but in the future stuff like this will be more the focus imo
Ironically, this is one of the few BW-esque aspects of SC2, and yet SC2 elitists don't want SC2 to be more like BW... T______T
I dont really care for bw, it wasnt my scene. I'm simply arguing that sc2 is a good game. If being like BW makes it a good game that great.
Stating that its like BW doesnt make it worse.
Reading comprehension, sir.
Where did I ever say being similar to BW is making it worse? On the contrary, most of the time when an SC2 fan brings up a fun, entertaining aspect of SC2, it's one of those that are similar to BW (point in case: mechanical micro techniques like Marines vs. Banelings, out of ordinary use of units like Baneling landmines or using Auto-Turrets to confuse Siege Tanks, multi-pronged attacks, macro games, etc.; most of the things that are different from BW, aside from UI changes, are complained about).
Why the sad face then?
Edit: why not 'yay this kind of cool stuff is going to be done by bw progamers '
Why? It's not like the SC2 progamers don't do this stuff and therefore the BW players have to come and show them. Additionally, if we see BW players doing impressive stuff in SC2 it will mean that we will see LESS impressive stuff in BW. And for me impressive stuff in BW>impressive stuff in SC2.
On April 07 2012 03:16 Rotcod wrote: Cant really respond to everyone that commented on the videos but I didnt mean to QQ I just thought that maybe people who watched mainly bw hadnt seen some glimpses of godly micro thats being developed at the cutting edge of sc2 ^^
at the moment its still more profitable to practice build orders/macro than micro but in the future stuff like this will be more the focus imo
Ironically, this is one of the few BW-esque aspects of SC2, and yet SC2 elitists don't want SC2 to be more like BW... T______T
I dont really care for bw, it wasnt my scene. I'm simply arguing that sc2 is a good game. If being like BW makes it a good game that great.
Stating that its like BW doesnt make it worse.
Reading comprehension, sir.
Where did I ever say being similar to BW is making it worse? On the contrary, most of the time when an SC2 fan brings up a fun, entertaining aspect of SC2, it's one of those that are similar to BW (point in case: mechanical micro techniques like Marines vs. Banelings, out of ordinary use of units like Baneling landmines or using Auto-Turrets to confuse Siege Tanks, multi-pronged attacks, macro games, etc.; most of the things that are different from BW, aside from UI changes, are complained about).
Why the sad face then?
Because BW has a ton more of those things, while SC2 has a lot of things people constantly complain about? Why would I cheer for this transition when I could be still watching them play much more entertaining games in BW instead of hoping blizzard doesn't botch HotS like they botched SC2 (in comparison to BW)? And I could, if blizzard didn't kill BW because of their greed. T_______T
I truly despise blizzard (and savior) for what they did to BW, and I don't think I'm ever buying another game from them.
Y'know what, let us not derail this thread to become something like BW vs SC2 all over again. Because arguing for either side itself is a task of high tediousness. So let us actually discuss what is relevant according to the thread, that is our thought of this new implementation. The implementation with the sole mission objective of entirely removing BW from the professional scene.
I'll start doing the honor.
Its a tradegy, its a bloody tradegy. My passion being perished just like that. Especially after I spent nearly half of my life enjoy it. And now its gone, just like that. You SC2 fans need to recognize that a part of your heritage, a part of my community is vanishing forever.
So what's the reason for this?
It is a contagion. Infected with the same disease that will kill all of them soon enough, avarice. Let me tell you a story. A story about a bunch of nerds who had a dream that all the fellas from the interwebs would come together once or twice a week and worship. Now, these gods that we came to adore, they weren't invisible deities that demanded we fear them or abase ourselves before them. Nah, these gods were just like us. Hard working man who came from the same familar class that we were born in, who played for the same reason we watched: for the joy, not for the money, not for the fame, not for the loose car or the women because they loved for what they did.
In the year of 2000, BoxeR dreamed that this beautiful game of ours would be played in every town, every village, every city of the land. Decades after he manage to bring it to mainstream, that dream lies in shatter my friends. Ripped apart by the greed of the managers, the owners and the ones that corrupted them all, the cooperation. Well I say to you, we can no longer sit back and watch this dream diminish, watch communities like Brood War be torn apart because it is not only restricted to me, it is also your game, so let us make it...our game.
On April 07 2012 02:33 Rotcod wrote: I was just skimming through the thread and there is a lot of hate for the lack of micro in sc2. The thing that stuck out the most was the comparisons with storms and these two videos came to mind...
Sure storm is easy to cast, but you still have to hit the god damn units.
before you bash how easy sc2 is try pulling off either of these moves ^_^
no offense but those moves are very simple compared to storm dodging in BW.
Be fair, the first video is rad.
i am being fair. in sc2 you just click-drag-select the marines, stim, and then run. in bw you do the same thing except that you can only select 12 units at a time, and since there are usually medics involved, you cannot press stim until the selection is pure marines. There is no Tab Select. So basically if there are a bunch of rines and medics, you gotta be careful how to select them, click-drag-select multiple times due to 12 unit limit, while dodging storms.
I'm not bashing sc2, I believe sc2 has great potential. It's just that at the current state of things, I firmly believe the talents of BW A teamers will be wasted and the fans will not get to see them truly shine. We lose and they lose.
Yeah, the skillsets are different. Some of the things you have or get to be able to do in BW aren't still there in SC2. While there's not a lot in SC2 that wasn't in BW, some things become more important due to other things being easier. For this reason, I agree that the top BW pros will probably be wasting their skill, and might not be too successful. If, however, their ability to learn and improve stay intact, it's possible that they can figure out SC2 and do very well, but we'll have to wait to see just how well.
On April 07 2012 03:33 Boblion wrote: Lol at people discussing storm dodging micro in Sc2. The main difficulty for both players is the Bnet delay haha.
Yeah, exactly. I just thought of that. It makes SC2 micro pretty hard sometimes. Banshee micro vs Marines is something that I was never too impressed with, because the unit stats seemed to make it possible, but when I tried it myself with the latency, it was ridiculously hard.
I think I'm going to start complaining about how easy BW is and how unimpressive BW pros are because they play with lan latency.
On April 07 2012 01:56 Alacast wrote: If this change does go through, I'm insanely excited to hear the BW pros' critiques of the game and hopefully it will bring a new level of respect to the oft-dismissed discussions on game flaws within SC2.
Can someone one with a better insight tell if this will be the case? Somehow I can't see this happening at all.
On April 07 2012 02:33 Rotcod wrote: I was just skimming through the thread and there is a lot of hate for the lack of micro in sc2. The thing that stuck out the most was the comparisons with storms and these two videos came to mind... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAfBWrVyMM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQnGSenR4fQ Sure storm is easy to cast, but you still have to hit the god damn units.
before you bash how easy sc2 is try pulling off either of these moves ^_^
no offense but those moves are very simple compared to storm dodging in BW.
Be fair, the first video is rad.
i am being fair. in sc2 you just click-drag-select the marines, stim, and then run. in bw you do the same thing except that you can only select 12 units at a time, and since there are usually medics involved, you cannot press stim until the selection is pure marines. There is no Tab Select. So basically if there are a bunch of rines and medics, you gotta be careful how to select them, click-drag-select multiple times due to 12 unit limit, while dodging storms.
I'm not bashing sc2, I believe sc2 has great potential. It's just that at the current state of things, I firmly believe the talents of BW A teamers will be wasted and the fans will not get to see them truly shine. We lose and they lose.
Yeah, the skillsets are different. Some of the things you have or get to be able to do in BW aren't still there in SC2. While there's not a lot in SC2 that wasn't in BW, some things become more important due to other things being easier. For this reason, I agree that the top BW pros will probably be wasting their skill, and might not be too successful. If, however, their ability to learn and improve stay intact, it's possible that they can figure out SC2 and do very well, but we'll have to wait to see just how well.
On April 07 2012 03:33 Boblion wrote: Lol at people discussing storm dodging micro in Sc2. The main difficulty for both players is the Bnet delay haha.
Yeah, exactly. I just thought of that. It makes SC2 micro pretty hard sometimes. Banshee micro vs Marines is something that I was never too impressed with, because the unit stats seemed to make it possible, but when I tried it myself with the latency, it was ridiculously hard.
I think I'm going to start complaining about how easy BW is and how unimpressive BW pros are because they play with lan latency.
You have to consider that your opponent in BW also uses Lan latency, therefore it's actually harder.
On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote: Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes.
On April 07 2012 00:51 maybenexttime wrote: There are so many easy fixes for SC2 micro, yet blizzard refuses to implement any of them. I can understand their reluctance a year ago when they didn't want to the balance they worked hard on achieving, but now that HotS is on the horizon and will reset the balance anyway, can't they entertain the idea of fixing the game with something beyond simple stats alteration?
Blizzard's goals for the game are not your goals for the game. In fact, they're not even similar. For some reason two years has not been long enough for most people to recognize and fully comprehend the implications of this fact.
What are Blizzard's goals for the game?
I had a long reply typed out, but I think it's off-topic for this thread. PM me or something if you're still curious.
On April 07 2012 02:33 Rotcod wrote: I was just skimming through the thread and there is a lot of hate for the lack of micro in sc2. The thing that stuck out the most was the comparisons with storms and these two videos came to mind... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMAfBWrVyMM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQnGSenR4fQ Sure storm is easy to cast, but you still have to hit the god damn units.
before you bash how easy sc2 is try pulling off either of these moves ^_^
no offense but those moves are very simple compared to storm dodging in BW.
Be fair, the first video is rad.
i am being fair. in sc2 you just click-drag-select the marines, stim, and then run. in bw you do the same thing except that you can only select 12 units at a time, and since there are usually medics involved, you cannot press stim until the selection is pure marines. There is no Tab Select. So basically if there are a bunch of rines and medics, you gotta be careful how to select them, click-drag-select multiple times due to 12 unit limit, while dodging storms.
I'm not bashing sc2, I believe sc2 has great potential. It's just that at the current state of things, I firmly believe the talents of BW A teamers will be wasted and the fans will not get to see them truly shine. We lose and they lose.
Yeah, the skillsets are different. Some of the things you have or get to be able to do in BW aren't still there in SC2. While there's not a lot in SC2 that wasn't in BW, some things become more important due to other things being easier. For this reason, I agree that the top BW pros will probably be wasting their skill, and might not be too successful. If, however, their ability to learn and improve stay intact, it's possible that they can figure out SC2 and do very well, but we'll have to wait to see just how well.
On April 07 2012 03:33 Boblion wrote: Lol at people discussing storm dodging micro in Sc2. The main difficulty for both players is the Bnet delay haha.
Yeah, exactly. I just thought of that. It makes SC2 micro pretty hard sometimes. Banshee micro vs Marines is something that I was never too impressed with, because the unit stats seemed to make it possible, but when I tried it myself with the latency, it was ridiculously hard.
I think I'm going to start complaining about how easy BW is and how unimpressive BW pros are because they play with lan latency.
You have to consider that your opponent in BW also uses Lan latency, therefore it's actually harder.
See what I did there?
Welp, delay rapes high-level play hardcore, anywhere. Unless of course the game is turn-based.
I think anyone saying the micro in sc2 is comparable should play both games. I had my own reservations before I got into bw. I quickly found it wasn't the macro (no mbs, no automine etc) that made the game so difficult but just the amount of attention and micro ur units need.
No doubt there are hints and flashes of great micro moments in sc2 but they are just so few and far between. Marine splitting vs banelings is one of the only comparable micros ive seen (compared with splitting vs lurkers). In the end I believe it's the shallow units and the ai and not the interface that is the cause of the low levels of micro in sc2.
As someone who really enjoys watching and playing SC2 I am shocked and dissapointed at how they decided to merge the two scenes together if they decide to do this.
On April 07 2012 02:53 N.geNuity wrote: It's much easier to dodge storms when you can grab 30 units in 1 click. Now units do clumps up more in sc2, yada yada, but storms hitting without smart casting and players dodging storms well with like 30 hydralisks is more micro intensive. No matter what anyone tries to say otherwise.
When hitting storms is easier, dodging storms becomes harder. Also, unlimited unit selection is not a boon to storm-dodging, as it is much easier to spread your units when a drag-box over your army only selects a portion of that army (like in BW) as opposed to your entire army. That storm-dodge video is actually very impressive.
*facepalm*
In current BW ZvP, zergs have to control their hydralisks well so that not only they dodge the storms when they're casted, they have to make sure they pull away the right units before the hydralisks coming from the back actually block the hydralisks from running away from templar+goon+zeal army.
In SC2, you can easily pull back everything at once.
That way, instead of a handful of units not firing, none of them will!
A lot of SC2 pros actually have pretty horrible control, even little things like having medivacs in the same control group as the marines, so that when you stutterstep the marines, the medivacs dance around like morons instead of healing.
On April 07 2012 02:53 N.geNuity wrote: It's much easier to dodge storms when you can grab 30 units in 1 click. Now units do clumps up more in sc2, yada yada, but storms hitting without smart casting and players dodging storms well with like 30 hydralisks is more micro intensive. No matter what anyone tries to say otherwise.
When hitting storms is easier, dodging storms becomes harder. Also, unlimited unit selection is not a boon to storm-dodging, as it is much easier to spread your units when a drag-box over your army only selects a portion of that army (like in BW) as opposed to your entire army. That storm-dodge video is actually very impressive.
*facepalm*
In current BW ZvP, zergs have to control their hydralisks well so that not only they dodge the storms when they're casted, they have to make sure they pull away the right units before the hydralisks coming from the back actually block the hydralisks from running away from templar+goon+zeal army.
In SC2, you can easily pull back everything at once.
That way, instead of a handful of units not firing, none of them will!
A lot of SC2 pros actually have pretty horrible control, even little things like having medivacs in the same control group as the marines, so that when you stutterstep the marines, the medivacs dance around like morons instead of healing.
Oh you have no idea how much that annoys me how much people only use 3-4 hotkeys all game long bugs the hell out of me for some reason xD.
On April 07 2012 02:53 N.geNuity wrote: It's much easier to dodge storms when you can grab 30 units in 1 click. Now units do clumps up more in sc2, yada yada, but storms hitting without smart casting and players dodging storms well with like 30 hydralisks is more micro intensive. No matter what anyone tries to say otherwise.
When hitting storms is easier, dodging storms becomes harder. Also, unlimited unit selection is not a boon to storm-dodging, as it is much easier to spread your units when a drag-box over your army only selects a portion of that army (like in BW) as opposed to your entire army. That storm-dodge video is actually very impressive.
*facepalm*
In current BW ZvP, zergs have to control their hydralisks well so that not only they dodge the storms when they're casted, they have to make sure they pull away the right units before the hydralisks coming from the back actually block the hydralisks from running away from templar+goon+zeal army.
In SC2, you can easily pull back everything at once.
That way, instead of a handful of units not firing, none of them will!
A lot of SC2 pros actually have pretty horrible control, even little things like having medivacs in the same control group as the marines, so that when you stutterstep the marines, the medivacs dance around like morons instead of healing.
i think the point is that when you select the few you need to pull back you can with a single click get them out of harms way since the hydras behind them will part like the red sea
EPT
'
Unless of course the game is turn-based.
