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The_Piper42
United States426 Posts
On November 29 2011 14:06 Gara wrote: This thread is much needed! Long live the one true Power Rank! None of this random users posting SC2 "Power Ranks" that are really just subjective lists of their own favorite SC2 players. Aren't all Power Ranks subjective? | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Are Stork and Stats are the top tosses right now? Maybe. Stats ownage in the playoffs has seemed to transition into this season. He lacks a lot of the "OMG" plays, but he gets results. Giving him a high spot is truly a testament to his name, since he gets wins so well. Stork being 5-1 without a single PvT really speaks volumes about how well rounded he is right now. He has a 75% PvP win percentage this season, so his one loss there is quite forgivable. I'm totally feeling Soulkey for top 4. It might seem strange to name him the top Zerg, but it's really not when you look at win after win, after win, after win, since around April or so. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
Stats and Stork, of the top of my mind, deserve very high positions too. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
What is better: total wins, or less losses? Now the PR is not based purely on statistics, but for a moment let's focus on them. Is a 4-0, like from Baby and SK, comparable to someone who actually plays every game? Surely a 5-1 must be better. But go further, can you even say that 4-0 is no better than 4-2? The more games we see players play, the more we get a feel for their power. But there's also the fact that everyone loses, and the more you play and more likely you are to show your moments of failure and give us losses. What if January trolled us and held back JangBi from playing in the CJ match, and we never had his fail 2 Gate? And what if he also was being saved for the 4th or 5th set versus ACE? Then JangBi would be 4-0 with dominating wins. On the same token, what is Baby wasn't saved for last and played in all of Team 8's matches, and we saw him do a horrible BBS and 2 Port Wraith leading to 2 losses? How much can you punish players like Jaedong, JangBi, and even Bisu for their losses when they have been fielded so offen? And can we really say we know enough about some of the 4-0 and 3-1 players to really judge them this season yet? I mean, you can't ignore what you see when a player loses. It will matter in your perception of them. But we gotta be careful with players who have missed 2 or more games since we haven't had as much time to observe them. Because of this, I feel that if a player has missed 2+ games thus far this season, we have to look toward the end of last season for judgement. So Baby seems badass, but his 4-0 could have been swapped with Jaedong's 4-2 if the coach did things differently. Since Baby wasn't spectacular toward the end of last season, I don't want to see him with a top 3 spot yet. Compare this to Fantasy who was quite good in the last PR time period, and has also missed 2 games so far this SPL. Fantasy's 3-1 is less impressive, and Baby especially looks the better TvT player right now. However, if the PR were held today, I'd be very careful about placing Baby over Fantasy. His SPL right now is better, but with both players not showing their full face we gotta step back to months past. Likewise we can't ignore Jaedong's losses but we also know he has been a top 10 PR member for several years running, so can we really put Baby ahead of him when we haven't even seen that many of his games yet? Good luck to Flamewheel trying to balance it all! You could make arguments for almost anyone being anywhere, but I hope he does it right.  | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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hns
Germany609 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up ACE fans trying to push FBH? You'll never see it coming... | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On December 26 2011 17:25 Crisium wrote: Mentioning those 3 undefeated players brings up an interesting point... What is better: total wins, or less losses? Now the PR is not based purely on statistics, but for a moment let's focus on them. Is a 4-0, like from Baby and SK, comparable to someone who actually plays every game? Surely a 5-1 must be better. But go further, can you even say that 4-0 is no better than 4-2? The more games we see players play, the more we get a feel for their power. But there's also the fact that everyone loses, and the more you play and more likely you are to show your moments of failure and give us losses. What if January trolled us and held back JangBi from playing in the CJ match, and we never had his fail 2 Gate? And what if he also was being saved for the 4th or 5th set versus ACE? Then JangBi would be 4-0 with dominating wins. On the same token, what is Baby wasn't saved for last and played in all of Team 8's matches, and we saw him do a horrible BBS and 2 Port Wraith leading to 2 losses? How much can you punish players like Jaedong, JangBi, and even Bisu for their losses when they have been fielded so offen? And can we really say we know enough about some of the 4-0 and 3-1 players to really judge them this season yet? I mean, you can't ignore what you see when a player loses. It will matter in your perception of them. But we gotta be careful with players who have missed 2 or more games since we haven't had as much time to observe them. Because of this, I feel that if a player has missed 2+ games thus far this season, we have to look toward the end of last season for judgement. So Baby seems badass, but his 4-0 could have been swapped with Jaedong's 4-2 if the coach did things differently. Since Baby wasn't spectacular toward the end of last season, I don't want to see him with a top 3 spot yet. Compare this to Fantasy who was quite good in the last PR time period, and has also missed 2 games so far this SPL. Fantasy's 3-1 is less impressive, and Baby especially looks the better TvT player right now. However, if the PR were held today, I'd be very careful about placing Baby over Fantasy. His SPL right now is better, but with both players not showing their full face we gotta step back to months past. Likewise we can't ignore Jaedong's losses but we also know he has been a top 10 PR member for several years running, so can we really put Baby ahead of him when we haven't even seen that many of his games yet? Good luck to Flamewheel trying to balance it all! You could make arguments for almost anyone being anywhere, but I hope he does it right. Depends on the strength of the player. Arguably for Bisu, Jaedong or Flash 5-1 would be a worse result than 3-0. That's because you intuitively expect them to score around 80% at least so 3-0 doesn't look like a fluke and 5-1 isn't a great achievement. For everyone else 83% with high confidence is better than 100% with low confidence. But I can't see 4-2 as better 4-0 unless the quality of the games is clearly higher for the 4-2 player. | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up I'm not seeing the bias from anyone. In my own case, I'm a big Effort, Jangbi, Soulkey fan. I think most people are fans of a lot of the players being talked about for PR. And many are fans of multiple teams. | ||
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
Calling Baby at #2. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines1083 Posts
effort is back, stork seems to have pulled himself together, jaedong still good. i feel zero's slipping a bit. sun//rain seems to be becoming real good. havent watched enough fantasy or bisu to know how they're doing | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up Then post your unbiased rank. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37124 Posts
Will the new power rank not come out until the new 2012 OSL? | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up I don't think I was being particularly biased. Despite being a SKT fan, I said nothing about FBB, but rather spent my time advocating for Baby and Soulkey, who have both performed quite impressively. And Stork kind of warrants automatic consideration, whether you're a Khan fan or not, simply for having the most wins this season. Everyone is giving pretty reasonable rankings and reasons for them, so if you disagree, then make specific disputes, instead of making generalizations. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4505 Posts
On December 27 2011 05:16 amazingxkcd wrote: ACE fans trying to push FBH? You'll never see it coming... Honestly, looking at his games, I would mention PianO over FBH in the CBNC. He went 3-1, defeating Bogus and Jangbi, and furthermore, his only loss came from Horang2 who is a total baller in PvT. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On December 27 2011 04:41 saltywet wrote: everyone is so biased its actually pretty funny CJ fans trying to push effort up KT fans trying to push stats up SKT fans trying to push FBB up khan fans trying to push stork up stars fans trying to push soulkey up At the end of the day, SOMEBODY has to be pushed up. Flash is pretty much the clear #1, but who do you go with after that? I'm against just handing it to a perfect record for this season just because that player has a perfect record over... 4 games. Which is nothing, really. Counting prelims, Casy's longest winstreak in TvP is 5 games. So if Casy can win 5 straight TvP, then it's reasonable to assert that 4 straight wins is not really that big of a deal. Of course, Baby and SK have both played nicely (see vs Leta and vs Bogus, respectively). And both of these players have posted solid stats in the past. But I'd also criticize that neither has hit the big time yet. It's premature to call SK the #1 Zerg (must I repeat myself? He has never won a ZvZ series in his life, even in offline prelims, despite being statistically strongest in that MU... so why can't he win it when it counts most?) and Baby has not fully developed either, being perhaps as well known for his horrible slump when he lost his rainbow socks as for his impressive wins over Flash and Jaedong in the past. I'd hesitate to put either in the top 3. They both HAVE to be ranked, but top 3? Effort HAS proven himself, but as has been pointed out that was over a year ago, and Effort's current form is absolutely not what it was when he won OSL. Period. I love the fact that my boy Effort is winning (even if his current hair is so obnoxious that my eyes bleed whenever I look at it), but is he really top 5? Top 10 I think he deserves for what he's done, but his play really is sloppy right now. Stork... I don't really mean to "push" for him and I'm not really a Khan fan (if I had to pick a team, CJ or Stars probably), but he's currently my #2 if for no other reason than he has one of the more impressive kill lists (Zero, Bisu, and Movie has been moderately strong at PvP recently) and he has history. But his history also tends to go: strong at start of season -> collapse as season wears on. How much stock should be put in that? It's worth noting that he's behind SK and Baby in ELO rating for exactly this reason. Jangbi... I think Crisium has made good points. FBB: To be honest, I don't think I've seen any of SKT's games this season. Huh. I haven't been watching thoroughly enough. A part of me feels like Bisu has to be ranked simply due to his skill. He's a hot commodity even if he is only 3-3. Another part feels like "Bisu not performing in PL? That's all he's good for! If he can't do that he shouldn't be ranked!" Fanta deserves a little benefit of the doubt in that the reason he only played 4 games is that SKT was raping so much they didn't need him (in both the matches he didn't play he had been assigned a later set that wasn't needed). Can you really blame him for that? Somebody has to play the role of clean-up crew. You aren't necessarily going to stack your best 2 players at the very front. In fact, tactically speaking it's bad to do this since if they both lose it drains team morale and if they both win but the team loses it drains team morale because WWLLL is much harder to take than any other possible combination. As for Best... I'm not convinced in his PvZ and his PvP has actually been BAD for two years now. People still think "Best + PvP = win" when that hasn't been true since 2008. TLPD him if you don't believe me. I'm inclined to rank Fanta and Bisu and give Best a CBNC at most. Stats is another player in basically the same category as Baby and SK. So.... In other words, the only person I can't find a serious reason to bar from the top 3 is Fantasy and I'd bet that if I dove into his games I could find one. As for under-regarded right now: I think JD is not getting enough cred. For example in his game against Snow everybody was like "JD too greedy, his ZvP isn't what it used to be." Okay, his ZvP isn't what it had been back at the height of Swarm Season (2009), that much is true. But JD didn't lose due to greed. He lost that game because Snow played brilliantly. JD only really had to defend one choke point to cover 4 bases, so placing an extra hat at a fourth base didn't have a big impact. Snow's sair/dt was excellent, his sair+archon vs muta+scourge was excellent, and his timing attack came at the perfect moment, catching JD right as lurker tech finished. If JD had a serious fault that game, it was that he clumped his lurker eggs making them vulnerable to storm. IMO JD pretty much HAS to be top 5. Maybe top 3. There's also no reason to think that anybody other than JD is top Zerg. Zero I think is getting a serious short shrift. He dropped 3 in a row, sure, but look at WHO he dropped them to. He's still the Ace for Stars. A bump in the road is not going to change that. I'm thinking CBNC. Hydra... I'm having mixed feelings about. I'm unimpressed by his record, especially since he hasn't even played a Terran yet. His ling control vs Killer did not look like what I've come to expect from him. But by the same token, there's some unfairness there. Out of his last 11 ZvT, 5 were against Flash and 4 against Fantasy, so it's easy to dismiss his ZvT based on stats without recognizing that he's only facing top Terrans. It's like how in MMA you see a guy debuting in the UFC with a 12-1 record fighting someone with like a 8-5 record, except that the guy with the 8-5 record has been fighting in the UFC for a while and beats the living shit out of the 12-1 guy. Hydra's ZvT is only tested against the best. It's probably premature to doubt his ZvZ, and his ZvP is among the best in the business, with an ELO rating #3 and still rising. CBNC or a very low spot on the rank is still in the picture. Bogus: I'm not suggesting he should be ranked or even CBNC'd, but he's faced one of the most brutal line-ups of anyone and delivered solid performances, even if they weren't quite enough. Light: If you thought Bogus had a rough month, check out Light. Jangbi, Hyvaa, Best, Baby, Flash. Only one of those players is not being talked about for the ranking. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
1. Flash 2-4. Stork/JD/Fanta 5-6. Baby/SK 7-9. Bisu/Effort/Stats 10. Hydra CBNC: Zero/Leta/Piano/Roro Nowhere near a perfect ranking. Need to check games more thoroughly, need more statistics. But trying to put players in by where they really matter. | ||
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