EPTPower Rank Discussion Thread - Page 7
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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shucklesors
Singapore1176 Posts
On December 19 2011 06:25 Crisium wrote: Stork #2 would please me, heh. There's so many players that have a great argument for the top 10. At least we have 3 more games to go for each team. Hopefully all the big dogs get to play - having Fantasy and Leta already sitting out 2 games is no fun. DarkMatter, don't forget JangBi! Both JangBi and Jaedong have to prove themselves versus Z. We haven't seen JD do it yet this season, and JangBi has to show his crappy 2 Gate was a fluke. Mm, Jaedong's vZ may not be very good, and he did drop a protoss game against Best, but overall in both matchups I'm confident he's still grossly above the average in both matchups, and currently, his ZvT is no longer just the best ZvT. I would confidently say he's the best Terran killer race-regardless, either equivalent or better than Flash. (Well to be sure, we'd have to know if Flash can beat Flash lol). Just that alone should put him into top 5 and arguably top 3 easily. | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On December 20 2011 16:18 synapse wrote: Oh god I totally forgot about the PR... yeah I don't understand why we can't still have it in the sidebar  you can though can't you? does it not get updated? i have it there. click 'sidebar settings' beneath the right sidebar (below liquipedia) | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
6-10 is murky due to limited number of games. Effort, Hydra, Best, Jaedong, Leta, free and probably some others all candidate. But top 5 IMO should be set at this moment. A lot can still change in the next two weeks though. | ||
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On December 20 2011 17:22 Shurayuki wrote: you can though can't you? does it not get updated? i have it there. click 'sidebar settings' beneath the right sidebar (below liquipedia) That displays an ELO ranking instead of the Power Rank for some reason. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu. Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here. If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this: Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork -Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5 I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much. straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10 I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats.  | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
CNBC: Baby, Shy, horang2, bogus | ||
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red4ce
United States7313 Posts
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
On December 20 2011 18:30 Bill Murray wrote: I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu. Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here. If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this: Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork -Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5 I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much. straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10 I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats. i thought, although power rank does look at previous accomplishments, it emphasizes more on the play since the last power rank? in that case, bisu is 3/6 this season with wins over terrible players, ie great, action and jaehoon (though granted, jaehoon is 0-4 this season against really good opponents/and cheese). cant say much about bisu's pvp losses, but his pvt was lackluster, he was able to scout bogus completely yet still failed to defend against the push. IMO, bisu will need way more games before he should be put into top 5 | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On December 26 2011 13:26 saltywet wrote: i thought, although power rank does look at previous accomplishments, it emphasizes more on the play since the last power rank? in that case, bisu is 3/6 this season with wins over terrible players, ie great, action and jaehoon (though granted, jaehoon is 0-4 this season against really good opponents/and cheese). cant say much about bisu's pvp losses, but his pvt was lackluster, he was able to scout bogus completely yet still failed to defend against the push. IMO, bisu will need way more games before he should be put into top 5 yea power rank is supposed to mainly be about the last month Bisu's play this month has NOT been #3 PR material--not even close. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Nobody seems to visit the main PR thread anymore... not that I can fully blame them considering how it's completely buried in the current site layout, but still. Let me copy over what little discussion there is from there: ***WARNING: Wall of text contained herein*** + Show Spoiler + On December 18 2011 20:54 jalstar wrote: There seems to be a complete lack of PR speculation for this month, maybe put the thread in BW general somehow? My thoughts: Flash is the best right now. Again. It's been long enough since Jangbi's OSL win that that doesn't give him first automatically, and Flash, unlike Jangbi, has been destroying everyone in his path, especially Horang2 today. Hydra, Soulkey, Jangbi, Fantasy, and Stats all have variously strong cases for 2nd. Out of these, Soulkey is playing the best, followed by Stats. Jangbi was first last PR and hasn't been bad enough to fall out of the top 5. Fantasy and Hydra are incredibly streaky and it's too early to tell what kind of streak they'll be on. Jangbi and Soulkey would likely get 2nd/3rd in some order, and the rest in the 4th-9th range. None of Stork, Bisu, and Jaedong really are playing like top 3 right now, but they should all definitely be on the PR. Stork had a very poor end to last season that he seems to be recovering well from, Bisu seems to have slipped from his PL monster status of 10-11, and Jaedong has been great except for that bizarre opening day game against Best. Baby has been under the radar a bit but deserves a PR spot for his newfound consistency. Biggest disappointment so far has been ZerO. He was so good towards the end of last season (in PL, not the finals against Flash) but hasn't really done anything this season. Today's game against Jaehoon was ok, the rest not so much. On December 19 2011 06:16 Mortality wrote: There is a thread in BW general. Nobody is going there either. I'm a bit hesitant to push SK all the way up to 2nd. If Fanta and Hydra are not going to be considered due to "streakiness" then it has to be pointed out that SK just doesn't have the kind of achievements attached to his name that either of them do. There's still some more time so we should see what happens. I think that everybody has at least 2 more games before the next ranking, and that can mean a whole lot of difference, especially given that with such a looooooooooooong off season we are not only working from somewhat small samples, but don't have the benefit of being able to interpolate based on how a player has been progressing when you expand your view to 2 months or to 3 months. On December 20 2011 03:43 VGhost wrote: I've been away from the PR for too long. Candidates so far for ranking, judging by record: Stork, Soulkey, BaBy, Flash (all 3-0 or 4-0); maybe fantasy (2-0) & established player. Jaedong, EffOrt, Hydra, Jangbi Stats, BeSt, and sHy! (!) are all sitting at 3-1 as well. Then we have a bunch (Bisu, ZerO, Light, free, Jaehoon, Bogus, Shuttle) of good-to-great players who have so far only gotten mediocre to bad records. Right now my inclination is to leave Jangbi #1 and Flash #2, but after that: Stork, Soulkey, BaBy; then Jaedong, Hydra, EffOrt, Bisu, Stats in some order. But it's a really tentative thing yet. On December 20 2011 04:27 Mortality wrote: Don't see why Jangbi should be ahead of Flash. I think the only thing "diminishing" Flash's aura right now is that KT is not looking very dangerous and there are no individual leagues. Unless either Flash loses or barely scrapes through some horribly scrappy games, I don't see anyone else claiming #1 over him. On December 20 2011 05:00 VGhost wrote: Most of the reason is that Jangbi's got a residual #1 ranking from the last PR which I don't think a loss to EffOrt entirely erases, especially when Flash has played nobody: his best vs. T opponent was Jaehoon: a quality win, but great's not that impressive and Horang2 is surprisingly weak vs. Terran. Admittedly Jangbi's opponents aren't great either (except for EffOrt who beat him), but unless we're going to blow the whole thing up and start over entirely I think there's nothing conclusive putting Flash back over Jangbi when Jangbi beat Flash (among other things) to take #1. Not that Flash #1 would be a completely illogical choice, but you seem to be defaulting to that position and I'm not sure we've seen enough to prove that's legitimate right now. If we were going to just ignore everything from before and go on this season, I think I'd make it look something like: 1. Stork 2. Flash 3. Soulkey 4. BaBy 5/6/7. EffOrt/Hydra/Jangbi 8/9/10. ... no idea. Pick from Jaedong, Stats, Bisu (I guess), fantasy, BeSt, ...maybe Piano? On December 20 2011 06:42 Mortality wrote: Well, in fairness, Jangbi hasn't exactly played the strongest vP line-up either. Light is not a strong TvPer. Best is hot lately, but he's 2-6 in PvP in 2011, which is hardly convincing. Truthfully, Best's reputation for PvP is STILL a carry over from mid 2008. If you look closely at his record, he is 14-20 in (41%) in PvP since Jan 1, 2009, with only one brief hot streak in late 2010. Even if we include non-standard league games it's still only 19-24 (44%). Shuttle is fairly well known for his PvP, but he's never been an elite player and never been a sniper of Horang2's caliber, and he's on a 4 game loss streak, and is actually 5-6 (45%) in 2011 unless we count prelims... and who the fuck is ajuk12? So it's debatable how much that win is worth. And then of course we have the loss to Effort, who is something of a wildcard right now. I don't think it's safe to assume Effort's form is 100% yet, but how close to 100% is an important issue. So, yeah, if we parse Jangbi's games then I'm inclined to give the nod to Flash. Granted we are operating on small samples with no data going back to OSL, but they were neck and neck then and I have Flash with an edge right now. In terms of caliber of competition, SK looks fairly strong, but having gone through SK's results a little more intimately, [see this discussion: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291961¤tpage=52#1032］, I am somewhat hesitant to hand over a top 3 just based on what he's done. He could of course continue this domination, in which case he will really have earned it, but let's not talk about the future. The fact that he hasn't faced an S-class player also weighs somewhat significantly. Stork's kill list looks downright frightening. Fanta's also is very relevant, but it's only 2 games. I really want to see another 2 games out of everybody before I make too many judgement calls. On December 25 2011 21:39 Mortality wrote: Okay, I don't know if anyone still reads this thread anymore (or cares), but now with a little more data things are starting to shape up... sort of. At this point it looks like Flash is the clear #1 candidate unless he drops a game. Undefeated (with at least 3 games played): Flash, SK, Baby (4-0 each) *note: just because a player is undefeated does not mean they should automatically be rated over someone who is, say, 4-1 or even 4-2, because context matters... however in the case of Flash he was #2 on the last rank and only not #1 because of Jangbi's meteoric rise 1-Loss: Stork (5-1), Stats, Effort (4-1 each), Fantasy, Piano (3-1 each) 2-Loss: Jangbi, Jaedong (4-2 each) Going by stats alone, nobody else stands out. For instance, Hydra at 3-2 leaves me unimpressed, especially since he hasn't faced Terran (both his losses come from his "strongest" mu, ZvZ). That said, just because I haven't listed somebody doesn't mean that they are banned from PR or anything like that. Hydra and Bisu and maybe still Best are all still candidates, at the very least for CBNC. Also on my mind for CBNC are players who have given strong performances, but not enough to be PR worthy. I was very impressed with Snow's game against Jaedong, especially in the control of the sair+archon vs muta+scourge. The only "definite" I perceive right now is Flash #1. I'm hesitant to put Baby and SK in the top 3 over players who have proven they have what it takes in individuals. People are always tempted to hop on the bandwagon of an undefeated player, but we've been burned often enough in the past (e.g. Shine during his massive winstreak a year ago) that we ought to know better. If I have to choose, I'm more comfortable with giving the nod to Baby who was pulled some impressive wins over Jaedong and Flash in the past. By comparison, SK who seems so dominant statistically in ZvZ right now... has NEVER won a ZvZ series in his life against anybody, even in prelims. But in fairness to SK, other than his inability to win a ZvZ series to save his life, he is much more consistent and has been looking strong for a while. Currently I'm leaning towards Stork as #2. I realize that Stork tends to come out strong at the start of a new season and then fade, and I also realize he's actually below Baby and SK in ELO due to his flopping around last season, but his kill list is pretty impressive and we know he can go the distance. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
1. Flash 2. Jangbi 3. Stats 4. Effort 5. Stork 6. Fantasy 7. Jaedong 8. Bisu 9. Soulkey 10. Baby Jaedong and Bisu have had some pretty lackluster PL so far. | ||
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Navi
5286 Posts
On December 20 2011 18:30 Bill Murray wrote: I don't believe you can justify keeping Bisu out of the PR with his vs Z Stork you could do without easier, but I would put him around 4-6, depending on where you place Bisu. Jangbi had his time at the top for winning the OSL. I'm into being conservative towards change, but lets face it, Flash is a better gamer than Jangbi. Who would you bet on if they played? If you want to speak with your heart, that's fine, but try to be logical here. If I was making this today, after the SKT vs Ace matches, I'd put it like this: Flash Jangbi Bisu Stats Fantasy Jaedong Soulkey Hydra Stork -Zero drops out, losing 4 out of his last 5 I don't have the task of getting this perfect, however, so I don't believe I'll fiddle around with this too much. straight stats: stats won 9 out of his last 10 Bisu won 15 out of his last 18 Soulkey won 8 out of his last 10 Jaedong won 7 out of his last 10 Jangbi won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent gold Flash won 7 out of his last 10 Fantasy won 7 out of his last 10, and a recent silver Stork won 6 out of his last 10, has won 4 in a row, and beat S class player Bisu in his last match Hydra falls, having won 5 out of his last 10 I'm not going to talk about the little things, though. I won't go on and on about Flash being the best player in the game, or Jangbi's OSL win (Which Kim Taek Yong has had elude him). Should Stats be #3? Probably. He's 9/10, and just won a huge game vs effort. However, my personal preference is loving Bisu. He has a very high ELO, and other than his PvP woes vs Free, I'm not seeing any flaws in his play. If someone ends up putting Stats ahead of Bisu, I would find it completely justified. Look at the stats. That's pretty bloody arbitrary, some of the games listed were months ago because of the long absence of games. If you look at the proleague 11-12 games played: (W/L) Stork - 5/1 Flash - 4/0 Soulkey - 4/0 Stats - 4/1 Effort - 4/1 JD - 4/2 Jangbi - 4/2 Fantasy - 3/1 Hydra - 3/2 Bisu - 3/3 Zero - 2/3 None of the records Fantasy above on the list above are completely heads and shoulders above one another, as none of the matchups involved were between big shots (with the exception of bisu vs stork). It comes down to individual perceptions of strength as well as a reliance on previous data and trends to rank the players. I think most people can agree that Flash will probably sit at the top of the list, as he has a perfect record, and recent tournament history and record supports his recent record as a continuation of his position at the top (personally I think his recent matches have seemed almost flawless). Accurate and indisputable rankings have become much harder because of less games played (less proleague a week, less matches played, and no ace) - as well as less head to heads between the aces of each teams (again no ace matches). Even amongst the top, dropping a game here and there is expected of the pros due to the nature of the game and the close level of mechanical skill among the pros. Noticeable points from the proscene as of right now are Jangbi's success - showing that his OSL victory wasn't a fluke and that he's reasserting his position as one of the premiere protosses, Jaedong's ZvZ vs Roro + Show Spoiler + a comeback from an almost certain BO loss with a lot of subtle plays that is reminiscent of the fabled JvZ | ||
Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On December 26 2011 13:51 writer22816 wrote: Why are people still talking about the OSL games? That was last power rank. This PR should be mostly be about PL performance, with some leverage given to Jangbi/Fantasy for being OSL finalists. Isn't that how it has worked in the past? My rank would go like this: 1. Flash 2. Jangbi 3. Stats 4. Effort 5. Stork 6. Fantasy 7. Jaedong 8. Bisu 9. Soulkey 10. Baby Jaedong and Bisu have had some pretty lackluster PL so far. I like your ranking for the most part, except for Effort being so high, while SoulKey and Baby being far lower, despite having played better. Neither of them have dropped a single game, and the games they won were, in my opinion, more impressive. I enjoyed Effort's game against Iris, but the rest were all pretty forgettable (excluding the game against Stats, which was decent, but he lost). Meanwhile, Baby dominated Leta and Light, which is definitely no mean feat, while SK was just fantastic in all his games, especially against Bogus. Not to mention SK being on a 7 game winstreak since July, while Effort has...well... no history at all for the past year. But I guess we'll have to see how things play out when CJ plays Stars tomorrow. If Effort beats Light, then I'll have no objections :> Also a little unsure about Stats being above Stork, who despite his loss last night, is still leading in most wins this season, and against some great opponents (Zero & Bisu). | ||
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mtn
729 Posts
2. Jangbi 3. Bisu 4. Stats 5. Soulkey 6. Fantasy 7. Jaedong 8. Baby 9. Effort 10. Leta | ||
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OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
2. stork 3. soulkey 4. baby 5. stats 6. jangbi 7. effort 8. jaedong 9. fantasy 10. horangi special mention: piano | ||
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doothegee
Korea (South)3011 Posts
That is all. | ||
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
Given  EffOrt's amazing comeback, he's definitely gotta be top 3 He's almost undefeated in SPL this year! | ||
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
1. Flash 2. Stork 3. Jangbi 4. Soulkey 5. Baby 6. Jaedong 7. Effort 8. Stats 9. Fantasy 10. Piano CNBC Best, Bisu, Hydra The only clear thing for me is that Flash is no 1. Stork and Jangbi have both taken down some impressive opponents and played generally well. Soulkey and Baby both have perfect records, but not necessarily against the best opposition (SK is also continuing on from his 75% win rate in R5/6). 6-9 are interchangeable. They have all played fine so it's tough to rank any above anyone else. Piano has gone 3-1 and taken out some good opponents in Jangbi and Bogus. Best, Bisu and Hydra all started well but their records atm are all mediocre. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
1. Flash 2. Jangbi 3. Stats 4. Baby 5. Soulkey 6. Stork 7. Fantasy 8. Effort 9. Bisu 10. Jaedong CBNC: Roro, Hydra, Shy, Sun and Best 2-6 I had a tough time deciding on the order of them, they're all really close imo | ||
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