EPT
Power Rank Discussion Thread - Page 13
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:13 flamewheel wrote: I actually hadn't really considered this. I'll try to work some stuff in (might be better as a separate article in PL news) but right now I've been writing for 6 hours or so and I've only got the top 5 locked down. And my reasoning still seems somewhat tenuous, but lack of data will do that >< Well, if it's any consolation the next power rank will have the OSL to consider as well. Given that players and coaches have more time to devote to every match now, for the bottom 5 a lot of reasoning will hinge on how they performed when things went out of their safe little practice bubble. How did Jangbi do, for example, when he faced snipe builds or faced an unfamiliar map? | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:23 mnesthes wrote: Who ends up #2 of PR is probably the question that everyone wants an answer most right now Haha, so awesome when Flash goes undefeated, the haters can't come up with a single argument | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 02 2012 11:10 Turbovolver wrote: Huh? 5fac timing is a pretty common thing, and hardly an "initial build order"... it's a standard response to double expand which has been deflected tons of times. What am I missing here? Bisu messed up by failing all his zealot bombs, his micro in engagements was horrible. And shouldn't he have had a reaver? That's not an initial build order. Its initial build order in the way that Bisu had already put down his 3rd nexus before he gets to scout it, just like Bogus in blindly 5fac allining without actually scouting the 3rd nex by Bisu (he did scout the probe at the expo so I guess he can somewhat assume hes going to expo, but he never actually saw the nexus). 5fac SCV cut is a build designed specially to punish greedy tosses, both players did their initial build orders without any significant scouting information. Its still their early build order despite it actually being longer into the game than say a 12hatch vs 9pool, the thing is none of them have scouted anything certain about their opponents builds. And what you are missing is that this is a 5fac from a rax-cc against a gate tripple nex and that is basicly the hardcounter for a gate nex nex build. Compare forinstance the game of Turn vs Sun where Turn does a similar 5fac scv cut build after a FD opener, against Suns 12nex into normal timed 3rd + mass gates. At the same time Turn is leaving his natural to move Bogus is already closing in on the second ridge. Sure its possible to hold 5fac with a triple nex build, but its a lot harder too do with gate, nex, nex vs rax-cc than it is with say gate, nex nex against FD into 5fac. Bisu didnt fail all his zealot bombs, take a look at them again, after he drops the first one and bogus tanks fire on them he actually unsieges his back tanks and targetfires with his sieged tanks on the goons while using the unsieged tanks and vultures to clear up the zealots. Thats excellent control by Bogus, and the same thing happens in the next battle with bogus using vultures to kill the zeals and target firing the goons again with his tanks. Getting a reaver is a huge investement in a spot where you are already pressed for time, maybe it could work if you get of some good scarabs and dont get your reaver target shot early, but its really cutting into your gate\unit production and the ideal way to stop a 5fac is to just have enough units to throw at it to break it and basicly winning the game if you stop it since T will be low on scvs and no upgrades. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On January 03 2012 01:48 Oystein wrote: Its initial build order in the way that Bisu had already put down his 3rd nexus before he gets to scout it, just like Bogus in blindly 5fac allining without actually scouting the 3rd nex by Bisu (he did scout the probe at the expo so I guess he can somewhat assume hes going to expo, but he never actually saw the nexus). 5fac SCV cut is a build designed specially to punish greedy tosses, both players did their initial build orders without any significant scouting information. Its still their early build order despite it actually being longer into the game than say a 12hatch vs 9pool, the thing is none of them have scouted anything certain about their opponents builds. And what you are missing is that this is a 5fac from a rax-cc against a gate tripple nex and that is basicly the hardcounter for a gate nex nex build. Compare forinstance the game of Turn vs Sun where Turn does a similar 5fac scv cut build after a FD opener, against Suns 12nex into normal timed 3rd + mass gates. At the same time Turn is leaving his natural to move Bogus is already closing in on the second ridge. Sure its possible to hold 5fac with a triple nex build, but its a lot harder too do with gate, nex, nex vs rax-cc than it is with say gate, nex nex against FD into 5fac. Bisu didnt fail all his zealot bombs, take a look at them again, after he drops the first one and bogus tanks fire on them he actually unsieges his back tanks and targetfires with his sieged tanks on the goons while using the unsieged tanks and vultures to clear up the zealots. Thats excellent control by Bogus, and the same thing happens in the next battle with bogus using vultures to kill the zeals and target firing the goons again with his tanks. Getting a reaver is a huge investement in a spot where you are already pressed for time, maybe it could work if you get of some good scarabs and dont get your reaver target shot early, but its really cutting into your gate\unit production and the ideal way to stop a 5fac is to just have enough units to throw at it to break it and basicly winning the game if you stop it since T will be low on scvs and no upgrades. I agree with this (a lot). Couldn't post before, and it was killing me when people say Bogus' build was a normal 5 Fac timing. He did it blindly, w/o scouting, like mentioned, and happened to hard-counter his opponent's build. If he had an Acad-> Comsat, and reacted to the early 3rd, i wouldn't have breathed a word. Last gives off the same feel as Skyhigh last time, which is to say that i think he deserved to be mentioned, but not ranked yet. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Also, SkyHigh was at one point (much later on) close to Flash in TvT ELO, maybe even slightly ahead for a few days. And at one point he sported a 3-1 head-to-head record over Flash. (Not to mention his domination in head-to-head over Leta, who was very strong in TvT at the time.) Last simply has not proven himself the way SkyHigh had. He's drawn some attention for sniping top Terrans, but he's never won a high profile match, he's never beaten a strong ZvTer, only once scored a win over a strong PvTer, and does not sport a winning record head-to-head over any top TvTer. A mention in CBNC... okay, I'll take it so long as you're pointing out that STX has needed those wins. An actual spot on the ranking? Let's not joke here. | ||
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TemujinGK
United States483 Posts
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 03:09 TemujinGK wrote: Yes! <<33 The new ranking's up? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Not unless it's hidden. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37023 Posts
Got to get rid of them Arbiters..... | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 02 2012 20:34 sviatoslavrichter wrote: Haha, so awesome when Flash goes undefeated, the haters can't come up with a single argument Uhh it's not too much to be excited about considering the opponents... teams are blatantly sending weaker players rather than have the possibility of him beating the best players on the team. Recently KT's choices seem to be getting better though i think. Anyone else noticed CJ's ability to pick the correct players is ridiculous? They manage to get favored matchups like 90% of the time.. EffOrt/Horang2 vs P, Snow/Leta/Hydra vs Z, Movie/Leta/Skyhigh vs T. Obviously the ridiculous depth helps them but hardly seems an excuse for say SKT1 to get 4 matchups all exactly how CJ would have wanted it. | ||
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InTheFade
United States1721 Posts
 Last for a spot on the next PR4-0 in PL vs Iris vs fantasy vs Mind vs Baby | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Also, Movie on paper is a solid, solid PvT, but lately it's arguably his weakest. By my count he's 1-5 in 2011 against strong TvP opponents. Granted, I'm not counting Sea as a strong TvPer, which is not entirely fair since like Snow's PvZ, Sea's TvP can also be described as spotty or inconsistent. And 2 of Movie's wins over Sea came during SWL when Sea knocked down some strong Protosses. Basically, Snow and Movie should be flipped. | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
Back in the days when there were many more PL matches to prep for each week, map specialists would probably have the advantage over snipers since each sniper would only have 1-2 days to finish a gameplan, while the map specialists would be getting essentially free practice on that map many, many times per week. Now, the snipers have the upper hand since they have up to 5 days to finish a build, while map specialists get less real games to work with. The end result of this is that coach choices become a bigger determining factor in player performance than before. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It makes sense anyway, because he sucks vP and even if he's decent vZ, they try to avoid it anyway it seems like. And funnily enough Horang2 would somehow be the better choice if his form last season is what to go by. And speaking of Sea, he's 1-5 this season.. and it was all TvP... i doubt they wanted that so team 8 really needs to improve their picks, | ||
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Ideas
United States8097 Posts
stats stork jaedong fantasy baby soulkey bisu hydra jangbi or best or effort I'm pretty sure I got 1-9 correct, but the 10th spot is really hard. It will presumably be a lot easier next month when there is also the OSL going on. cbnc for last but nothing more for him. perhaps JD could be lower, but he still looks really good in zvz and zvt, and I can't think of anyone below him on the list that honestly looks better overall than JD right now. | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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