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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
On January 03 2012 05:59 Xiphos wrote: I would place Stats higher than Flash because Stats have faced much higher caliber of players than Flash (Effort + Bogus) Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On January 03 2012 05:52 Ideas wrote: flash stats stork jaedong fantasy baby soulkey bisu hydra jangbi or best or effort I'm pretty sure I got 1-9 correct, but the 10th spot is really hard. It will presumably be a lot easier next month when there is also the OSL going on. cbnc for last but nothing more for him. perhaps JD could be lower, but he still looks really good in zvz and zvt, and I can't think of anyone below him on the list that honestly looks better overall than JD right now. Hmm Soulkey above Bisu? I agree that 4-2 is better than 4-3 by a bit, but looking at their play alone, i feel that Bisu is a more powerful player at the moment (i'm a Bisu fan, but even before that, it's an opinion as objective as possible). Bisu won convincingly, and took 3 BO losses (that was not all, there were other mistakes in those losses, but FE vs 3Gate Goons, 2Gate Obs vs FE, Fast 3 Base vs Blind 5-Fac are all solid BO disadvantage). Soulkey won the same number of game, and didn't look as convincing, at least to my eye. For the same reason, i would keep Flash above Stats (in response to the guy above me who wanted to put Stats above Flash). Well, this is even clearer seeing as Flash is undefeated, while Stats took a stain to his otherwise awesome record so far into the season. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On January 03 2012 06:10 ffreakk wrote: Fast 3 Base vs Blind 5-Fac are all solid BO disadvantage Going fast 3 base is just as blind as 5-facing is, the way you worded this shows bisu bias without me even having to look at your icon  | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 03 2012 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote: I know it's not their strongest, but they are sending them out in those matchups on purpose. Well to be fair Snow has not been sent out enough to say any specific matchup tbh, but Movie is being sent out for PvT's. His record this year is better than Snow's fairly easily so not too surprising. It makes sense anyway, because he sucks vP and even if he's decent vZ, they try to avoid it anyway it seems like. And funnily enough Horang2 would somehow be the better choice if his form last season is what to go by. And speaking of Sea, he's 1-5 this season.. and it was all TvP... i doubt they wanted that so team 8 really needs to improve their picks, Hm? Snow was 8-6 in PvT in 2011. Admittedly, 0-3 against strong TvPers is comparable to 1-5, but I'd put Snow's PvT ahead of Movie's. I also think Movie's PvP is underrated right now. The reason why people think of Movie as a sucky PvPer is that his record stank like crap in 2010 (6-18), but in 2011 he's gone 7-4 and his recent loss to Stork came at the end of a 6 game win streak. Admittedly, the players on his kill-list don't exactly stand out (Kal's been stinking up the joint recently, Brave has a high win% in PvP but that was mainly earned in 2010 and he's a relatively unestablished player). Basically, only Bisu, Horang2 and Stats have had consistently solid PvP in 2011, so it's probably the hardest matchup to get a read on the results from right now -- worse in some respects than ZvZ. Regarding Team 8's decision with Sea, they might not have a lot of choice. Everybody was talking about how they are a Dream Team when they were first formed, but I think it was somewhat deceptive. The problem with Team 8 is that they have a strong vZ line-up and a ridiculous vT line-up, but a very weak vP line-up. [Edit: TL;DR at the bottom for the lazies] Look by ELO: Jaedong 2222 (#2 in the world) Baby 2090 (#22 in the world) Sea 2036 (#39 in the world) Killer 2031 Tyson 2003 Jaehoon 1997 Let's start from the bottom. Jaehoon has to be considered wasted against any non Terran. His ELO peak in PvZ is 2000 (what you start at!) and 2046 in PvP. Admittedly he scored a 5 game win streak in R5/6, but that came from Bloody Ridge, his specialty map. Tyson is also wasted against any non Terran. His ELO peaks are fairly balanced (2099/2085/2077, vT/Z/P resp.), bust just open up his page on TLPD and he's 2-8 in his last 10vP and 3-7 in his last 10vZ. Killer is a little more feasible to send vP. For one thing he has a winning record, lifetime, and 4-6 (4-3 in last 7) in his last 10 is not horrible. But where are the wins against competent PvZers? A recent win over Jangbi is the only one all year. Furthermore, Killer is a good ZvZer and competent, albeit inconsistent, ZvT. Sea is clearly stronger at vP than any of the guys below him. His vZ has not been strong recently (only 1 win in his last 9 games vZ, and it was over hyvaa who is a ZvP sniper and nothing else these days). Admittedly Sea is a very strong TvT. #2 in the world right now (#4 overall vT). But basically the entire line-up on Team 8 is strong vT, so the stock that gets placed in that is limited. Baby by ELO and would be a better choice than Sea for TvP and recent record also agrees... marginally. But would you really want to tamper with Baby given what he's doing right now? He's a TvZ wrecking ball at the moment and his TvT is looking solid too. And then of course there's JD, who while very strong at ZvP, is even stronger in ZvT and historically speaking the greatest ZvZer EVER. So he's kind of wasted vP, but has been plugged into that role anyway as a stopgap. TL;DR Team 8 might be very strong on paper, but they have a crappy vP line-up. They really should have drafted Hiya. Really, really. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 07:37 Crisium wrote: Watching Hiya's TvP a couple months ago in Fish, I'm not sure he would be up to the task. T has been pretty weak on recent maps, so it might not be his fault. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 03 2012 07:37 Crisium wrote: Watching Hiya's TvP a couple months ago in Fish, I'm not sure he would be up to the task. IIRC Hiya took a break after being forced to retire and tried out SC2. Even if his last 3 games were losses, and even if his performance is no longer what it was, the man went 11-6 in 2011. Statistically, that would have been enough to put him as the strongest vP player on Team 8 based on 2011 results, 2nd strongest by ELO. With a wiiiiiiiiiiiiiide margin over third (Baby). | ||
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
1. Flash 2-3. Stats & Best 4. Jaedong 5. Fantasy 6. Effort 7. Stork 8. Bisu 9. Kal 10. Soulkey / Jangbi / FBH / Hydra My reasonings behind these: Flash should be obvious, just doing his thing as usual. Best and Stats both look very solid in every matchup this season, I feel like even though Best's record is a little worse than Stats so far, he's been playing stronger opponents and I'd say they're evenly matched or maybe even give Best a small edge (I am an SKT fan, though :p). Jaedong isn't doing anything spectacular but at least he's not losing every ZvZ again and overall feels like he's on the rise again. Fantasy had a dumb loss but his other games were nice, his vZ looks a lot powerful than before - feel like he could have been 5-1 or 6-1 if given the opportunity to play extra games. A little unsure about putting Effort there, especially so high, since the games he won felt like his opponents weren't doing as good as they should have been, but I feel like he's more versatile than Hydra already, and has more potential. Stork has a nice record but he basically won a couple PvPs, was handed a few free wins by bad zergs, and lost in very stupid fashion too - don't really feel like there's any justification to put him any higher than this spot. Bisu just keeps breaking my heart in PvP, but his vZ definitely deserves at least some mention in power ranks, as he's absolutely unstoppable in that MU right now. Unsure if Kal deserves a mention since he only played 3 games, but he looked very strong in all 3 of these, and I don't really think any other players are more deserving. Jangbi, Soulkey, Hydra, and FBH all had some good games but also some rather meh losses, maybe Soulkey less than the other 3. Really not sure why should Jangbi be on power rank at all except for his last OSL win - his play seems very uninspiring right now IMO; Hydra and FBH are kind of the same. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 03 2012 06:01 Kleinmuuhg wrote: Well thats results, but would you honestly say that Stats is better than Flash? I doubt it. Flash is undeniable #1. Yes, yes I would. Flash have beaten people that were were making a lot of mistakes in their play. I doubt that ANYONE could say the same about Effort and Bogus. Stats' game have generally been more tight since the competition is just that much higher. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
1.  Flash 2.  Stats3.  Jaedong 4. BeSt5. Stork 6-7 BaBy Fantasy8. Bisu9. EffOrt10. LastOutsider(s): JangBi (4-3), Neo.G_Soulkey (4-2),Hydra (4-2), Dear (2-0) | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:03 Xiphos wrote: Yes, yes I would. Flash have beaten people that were were making a lot of mistakes in their play. I doubt that ANYONE could say the same about Effort and Bogus. Stats' game have generally been more tight since the competition is just that much higher. But he lost to sea, who has lost to every other protoss. It's really ironic to see this, but it doesn't bode too well for stats. Effort played terribly against stats. Flash is still #1 imo. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:51 Release wrote: But he lost to sea, who has lost to every other protoss. It's really ironic to see this, but it doesn't bode too well for stats. Effort played terribly against stats. Flash is still #1 imo. But....that game vs Bogus made me broke my keyboard once Bogus GGd, NEVER have a game made me so mad at the winner (no not even when Shine drilled that back mineral on HBR and got rid of Stork in the EVER OSL). I was screaming "OH COME ON NOW!" at end of it for god knows how long lol | ||
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sviatoslavrichter
United States164 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:47 Tomken wrote:My list for now, Really tired so nothng more to add tonight. 1. Flash 2. Stats3. Jaedong 4. BeSt5. Stork 6-7 BaBy Fantasy8. Bisu9. EffOrt10. LastOutsider( S): JangBi (4-3), Neo.G_Soulkey (4-2),Hydra (4-2), Dear (2-0)Looks good, some minoR quibbles:1. Flash2. Stats3. Stork--can't really fault him for losing to a hydraling all-in. He even played safe and got 2 cannons, only mismicroed his zeals a bit4. BeSt--really redeeming himself after the SPL finals5. Jaedong6. BaBy7. Fantasy8. Hydra9. EffOrt10. Last--establishing himself as a decent TvT sniper. a bit more depth and he could move up the rank | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Sethronu
United Kingdom450 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:41 Mortality wrote: No idea how Best is supposed to be top 3 based on PL performance. That just doesn't compute. Why not? The game he lost against Calm was pretty ridiculous, you could say 'but he should have clicked on the backdoor mineral' but I doubt any P would've been expecting a hatch there; his loss vs Jangbi was pretty straight up but it's not like he played bad there or anything, his control was just a tiny bit weaker than Jangbi's for the moment, which happens to pretty much everyone in mirror matchups now and then. His wins on the other hand were all quite convincing, the only exception being the first week match vs JD where the Dong frankly just let Best kill him, but even there, Best had a great build and excellent execution, and even if JD had played safer and held the attack that broke him, Best would've still been in great shape to continue the game. He didn't really have many 'OHMYGOSH THAT WAS AWESOME' moments so far in the season, but he's just looking very solid and consistent, in all 3 matchups - which is more than can be said about any other P so far with the exception of Stats. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On January 03 2012 12:43 Mortality wrote: Flamewheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel where is raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaank? I had to deal with house guests and Mafia  I am 70% right now T_T But thankfully don't really have much to say about 8-10. | ||
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mnesthes
5433 Posts
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InTheFade
United States1721 Posts
Build order loss is an uneducated term that is now thrown around these forums more than "bonjwa" and "cheese." | ||
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Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
On January 03 2012 13:12 InTheFade wrote: There are very few true build order losses in the game of broodwar. There are many BO advantages, but losses? So saying Bisu had three (stretching the bounds of logic as well) of such varieties is completely idiotic. You're indirectly suggesting that Bisu doesn't have the chops to come back from disadvantageous circumstances, aren't you Build order loss is an uneducated term that is now thrown around these forums more than "bonjwa" and "cheese." I don't agree with him either. I think Bisu has two build order loses (The PvPs) and one small, very overcomeable, build order disadvantage, the PvT against Bogus. The way you put it sounds extremely silly though, like it's extremely false rather than slightly so. Have you even seen the games? Are you arguing the builds weren't as he said? Or are you arguing that the builds he did say aren't straight losses and are just 'disadvantages'? I can assure you the PvPs are a matter of hoping your opponent throws the game away, not that you play amazingly and take it back. For instance, the Free game is winnable if Free doesn't attack and and instead rides his macro advantage for too long and you both max, or at least both get large armies where you can realistically hope to overcome the disadvantage with positioning and control. But this is strictly Free's mistake, Bisu can play as well as he likes in this case and it wont change a thing if Free doesn't make it. | ||
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