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BinaryStar
Afghanistan669 Posts
"Maybe if would have been better for me to say that it's dumb to revere an SC player because they sequentially click their factories fast, rather than because of their strategic ability or their subtle timing and intuition or whatever." As I said before, it's a matter of preference. however, you seem to think your way of thinking is the right one, and everyone else seems to be disagreeing. I'm done here. You're one bullheaded fucktard. | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
For example, in macro: Deciding how many units to build vs. buildings/expansions in order to do best vs. the enemy = interesting macro 1sh2sh3sh4sh5sh6sh7sh8sh = boring macro In micro: manuevring with lings to cut off some marines' retreat, hence trapping and killing them = interesting micro quickly clicking on a single temp so you can use storm = boring micro I would like to see changes the emphasive the interesting, more interactive portions of the game, while demphasizing the less interactive busywork. | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On May 21 2005 10:58 EnDeR_ wrote: This is where our opinions differ. I want a game where if i spend 7 years playing, and you only spend 3, i want to be able to beat you every time, i want a game where time spent rewards your skill, i want a game where after 7 years of playing it, there's still things to be learned. You want a game that can be mastered faster, in short, you want an easier game No, no, no, no, no. I want a strategically deep game that's about fast thinking, not fast clicking. I want SC to be like Lightning Chess, you seem to want it to be like an MMORPG. | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:00 BinaryStar wrote: I'm done here. You're one bullheaded fucktard. Sorry, but persistance is necessary when you're trying to change entrenched irrational thinking. Even religion is finally starting to die in the West (except perhaps the US). | ||
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Oxygen
Canada3581 Posts
1) Better graphics. Yeah it's going to have to be in 3rd but with a fixed viewpoint that doesn't matter at all. 1b) Observer mode with completly free camera controll. (Imagine how wicked the battles would be when you can zoom down rigth down to the marine in Ground Controll style. 1c) Free camera mode in replays as well. I prefer non-3D but I guess it is inevitable. It would have to be functional, though, and couldn't look like shit (WC3 units look terrible and are incredibly hard to distinguish during battles). 2) Better interface. 2b) Find idle worker command (why not?) Meh, wouldn't really bother me, I guess it could be implemented. 2c) Larger possible groups. I say 16 units max. 2e) Toggle for HP/Shields/Mana for all units when selected, both in portrait and in game. (Would help you find the templar with mana left for a storm that much easier) Yeah, being able to see energy would help immensely. But not exact numbers, just for example the way the shield is displayed in the wireframe... 2f) Mode to let individiual units selected shine up for easier identification on the battlefield when selected as portrait. (You click injured zeal and get some kind of signal so you instantly know which one is injured) An excellent idea, except it already exists. There's a little green circle below the units  2g) Que construction for workers, especially protoss. (So yeah, queing a probe to build 5 pylons late game makes the game easier but... Yeah, sure, I'm open-minded, I see how that can be annoying 2h) Units autmatically move out of the way when you put down a structure. (Finally being able to plcae sunkens in mineral line. YES!) Best idea ever. It's no longer about skill but patience - how long will it take before you move all your fucking peons to the other mineral line so you can put a turret there?  Lets say a "shield" button that you could press at right moment and it blocks. But that could only be applied to a single unit at once.Nah, I think it could be applied to a whole group of units. so we could see pros do that would multiple units while us normal people could not do that, making the gap between pros and us even bigger.Nah, I think it's hard enough to block appropriately as it is | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:04 Oxygen wrote: Guys, how about we ignore Gravity/Tal It's been a while, you still haven't thought of any way to defend your irrational prejudice? | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2942 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:02 gravity wrote: No, no, no, no, no. I want a strategically deep game that's about fast thinking, not fast clicking. I want SC to be like Lightning Chess, you seem to want it to be like bodybuilding. Sc is already ligthning Chess, you just want to remove the option of focusing on learning macro. Right now we have the oov type player (focused on his macro), and the boxer type player (focused on his micro). They are both equally successful players (well, not exactly, but for the sake of the argument, suppose they are), automating economy and macro, you remove the oov factor. You efficiently kill one option of playing this game. I do not want that, i want to have more options of beating you than just outthinking you, i want my 123412341234 hours of training worth it. | ||
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Oxygen
Canada3581 Posts
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EnDeR_
Spain2942 Posts
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:08 EnDeR_ wrote: You want a game that can be mastered faster, in short, you want an easier game No, no, no, no, no. I want a strategically deep game that's about fast thinking, not fast clicking. I want SC to be like Lightning Chess, you seem to want it to be like bodybuilding. Sc is already ligthning Chess Not really, if lightning chess was like SC, you would have to pick up your pieces with chopsticks, which might be an interesting gimmick but would ultimately reduce the depth of the game. you just want to remove the option of focusing on learning macro. How so? Not requiring as much fast clicking to do macro doesn't mean you can't have a macro focus, there is always room to do better. Right now we have the oov type player (focused on his macro), and the boxer type player (focused on his micro). They are both equally successful players (well, not exactly, but for the sake of the argument, suppose they are), automating economy and macro, you remove the oov factor. You efficiently kill one option of playing this game. I do not want that, i want to have more options of beating you than just outthinking you, i want my 123412341234 hours of training worth it. Oov isn't suddenly going to suck if you improve the interface, I don't know why you keep insisting on this. Also, being able to beat someone other than by "just" outthinking them is not a good thing. Having more options is not always better. Again, if you want a game where you'll always win if you play 1231242152 hours and there's little room for inherent skill and quick insight, go play an MMORPG, not a strategy game. I'd rather have a top SC player be like Jose Capablanca (a famous chess world champion who practiced very little) than be like a fat MMORPG nerd who plays his game 18 hours a day (though that's not to say that practice and preperation shouldn't be neccessary to a reasonable extent). | ||
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useLess
United States4781 Posts
What the fuck? Hell if you call yourself a SC player! All your so-called asinine suggestions are to make the average player a lot lazier, and are rather similar to the WCIII gameplay, which is slow as it is. Get oot! | ||
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gravity
Australia2330 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:15 useless wrote: Im just looking at some of the things in the first post, and havent read all 9 pages of posts, so Ill just respond to that: What the fuck? Hell if you call yourself a SC player! All your so-called asinine suggestions are to make the average player a lot lazier, and are rather similar to the WCIII gameplay, which is slow as it is. Get oot! R->C->P | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2942 Posts
Oov isn't suddenly going to suck if you improve the interface, I don't know why you keep insisting on this. Why do we keep insisting on this? Because if you have been playing the game since 1999, you'd know that's what makes him fucking impressive. Also, being able to beat someone other than by "just" outthinking them is not a good thing Agree Having more options is not always better How can not having more options be better? Care to elaborate? Again, if you want a game where you'll always win if you play 1231242152 hours and there's little room for inherent skill and quick insight, go play an MMORPG, not a strategy game. Intelligent players will still be better than those who can't think shit and only practice and practice. What i'm saying is that I really want to beat that newbie that has started playing last year. I want him to have zero chance of even making it a close game. | ||
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Peatza
Sweden393 Posts
If you make a game easier, then it won't last that long. A video game with 24 stages versus a game with only 12 will simply be played for a longer time span. But it's is the multiplayer part that makes games really survive these days, and if you make multiplayer easier and less rewarding. Then the same thing will happen there. Starcraft has been around for over 8 years, and it's not because of its singelplayer campaign. The amount of time you have to put into Starcraft, and the rewarding factor for those who do, is so extremely perfect in Starcraft, and is part of the reason Multiplayer Starcraft will never die, and just become better. | ||
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ihatett
United States2289 Posts
Neither of you understand why Starcraft is far and away the most popular RTS. Now, I understand you want to inflate your respective egos (tal to a much lesser extent) by going against the norm, but you seem to think that the norm is inherrently wrong. That is not true. You seem to think that everything not involving unit control is "mundane". Why stop there? Why should you be forced to tell your units to attack? Why shouldn't they go by themselves? Why should you be forced to stim your marines? Why shouldn't the game win for you without having to do anything? Well, the reason lies in the difference between "games" and "movies": control. Games are all about control. You want to remove a lot of control from Starcraft. One of the reasons Starcraft is so popular is because it allows and requires a mind-boggling amount of control, which means there will always be a higher level of play to attain. Very few people ever reach the top ranks of players, and when they do they get proffesional contracts because others enjoy and appreciate the amount of skill involved in their play and are happy to watch them. In fact, the large proffesional scene is the other reason Starcraft stays alive. If you instantly chopped off nearly all macro from the game, then the high levels of play would be much easier to attain. Mircroing is not nearly as hard when that's all you have to worry about, when you units pump for themselves and your supply automatically goes up (in fact, why not remove supply deopts, etc. from the game under your scheme?), etc. Those great players would not longer seem as great when the skill level between you and them has been chopped down. There would no longer be the "wow" factor when watching them. There wouldn't be something to aspire to. As it is now, it's a blast watching professional VODs because you can really appreciate what is going on, and it makes you want to play and practice more to get closer to their level. If you hate having to control that many things at once then quite frankly Starcraft isn't the game for you. Play a different RTS, or even a game from a different genre. But either way, go the fuck away and take your completely undeserved elitist attitudes with you. edit: If it's full of typos, fine, I don't want to waste more time responding to trolls. | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2942 Posts
*turns violet *starts choking Energies: aghgh, ok, maybe not, but... i'll be back...Sayonara baby... | ||
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ChApFoU
France2984 Posts
+ many ppl actually get satisfaction from having a fluent multitasking because it's freeing time for micro or strategical thinking. Strategical depth in bw is also linked to the speed of the game, thinking is hard in bw because you need to think fast I, for example, have watched quite a lot of vods and replays and i know what to do in most common situations, still i suck I honestly would be B- on pgt with your interface, still i'm D with a shitty record and i deserve it because bw is also about speed ( thinking / reacting / decision making / fast memory ) and i suck at it mostly because i don't play enough BW is not chess, and it's good the way it is, it's strategic "density"is somehow linked to all the aspects your are calling "boring" because of the pressure you get. You're wrong becausse you think strategy should never be linked with time and the "mind-space" you' have at the moment of a decision. Don't you get that impression by watching replays ? like you could always have done better than the guy ? ( if you're watching a replay around your skill level ) i think this is what shows what bw is also about : thinking FAST acting FAST | ||
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ChApFoU
France2984 Posts
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EnDeR_
Spain2942 Posts
On May 21 2005 11:58 ChApFoU wrote: btw with no macro / economy to control ( on ums ) it took me 25 minutes to be able to kill 1 lurk with one marine 9/10 times. that was 8 months ago and i never was able to pull it in real game, guess why ^_^ I had to learn marine micro from almost zero ( i never play terran, i just suck with those little buggers ), so it took me a frigging long while , i was doing other things too, such as 12 marines 4 medics split against 2 burrowed lurks and such. Still, i'm just very sloppy with the mouse, the macro aspect of the game is much more appealing to me  .I was very frustrated with my zvz at the time, so i was trying out some tvz to see if i was better at it, but i wasn't  , i'm just that useless with terran . | ||
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Tal
United Kingdom1018 Posts
And to the earlier point about making storm easier to use would be the end of zerg, bear in mind that queens would be vastly easier to use, and you'd be able to select all your hydras to dodge with instead of only 12. Also bear in mind that these changes to interface are just my suggestions (no shit? ). It would be nice to see some very good players like testie or bigballs respond with their thoughts and suggestions. | ||
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