Fomos wants TL and its users to stop using their images and translating their articles. It's copyrighted content, and we have not received their permission to use it.
Photos are straight-up copyright infringement.
Translating 100% of an interview or article word for word is infringement. Reproducing Fomos English articles in their entirety is also infringement.
You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement.
Any articles or photos that Fomos requests us to remove, we will. Past articles and pictures might be retroactively removed, depending on what Fomos requests. We offered the following terms to Fomos. These are the terms we offer any Korean website regarding translations.
1) TeamLiquid users would be allowed to translate Fomos articles into English and post them in English, and Fomos would be allowed to re-post these translations. 2) Vice versa: Fomos would be allowed to translate TeamLiquid articles into Korean and post them in Korean, and TeamLiquid would be able to re-post these translations.
Translating is time consuming work, and we think that the availability of numerous translations is very valuable. This is why we proposed translation sharing under the above terms.
Unfortunately, Fomos was not satisfied with these terms. It wanted permission to copy TL.net's original English content and republish it, unaltered and untranslated, on its own English language site. This was a request we could not accommodate. Direct English-to-English or Korean-to-Korean copying of core content is an entirely different matter than sharing translated content between readerships of differing languages, and was never an option for TL. If TL opened a Korean language site, we would not expect Fomos to give us permission to repost their Korean content there.
Fomos also suggested that TL.net meet a monthly quota of translated articles. TL.net could not agree to a monthly quota in good faith, because all of our translators are volunteers who we have very limited control over. We can suggest ideas to them, but ultimately they have no obligation to perform any specific duties for TL.net. And so the pace of translation work at TL.net is always in flux, depending only on how motivated our volunteer translators are. We couldn't agree to a binding legal agreement imposing quotas without any reliable means to meet those quotas.
After a long series of exchanges, it became apparent that TL.net could not reach a compromise with Fomos over these issues at this time. We nonetheless agreed to respect Fomos's requests regarding the use of its copyrighted content.
It's too bad that our negotiations did not work out. We hope that Fomos will invest heavily in their global site so that international fans will continue to be able to enjoy their excellent Brood War coverage.
I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves. Yeah they have some english stuff but not everything.
On May 28 2011 06:04 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves.
they recently partnered with a chinese media site to publish English content
Well since SuperDanielMan does such a good job translating articles daily from Korean to English, I feel like we(tl forum users) should be supporting the fomos global section a lot more >< I don't think a lot of people even knew it existed.
On May 28 2011 06:04 Xiphos wrote: Lol wow they must be mad because we told them to stop using our translation as their official english translation.
Yeap. Well, i didn't like Fomos anyway.
So how people are going to translate the future interviews and stuff?
Probably not going to happen, or it will be done "illegally" somewhere in the dark reaches of the internet. Interviews are a big part of whats keeping BW "afloat" in the foreign scene. I don't think they realize the negative consequences their pettiness will cause.
MY first reaction was a big fuck you to fomos. And i'm keeping that opinion. This is friggin stupid to do.
so now instead of getting a article a couple of hours after it is done, we will have to wait a week or two, such bs. Nevermind the fact that we can no longer post interviews in the forums, so we will miss so many important articles cause sdm is not translating them either .
On May 28 2011 06:04 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves.
they recently partnered with a chinese media site to publish English content
Sigh I guess people do like exclusivity in contracts. Would have made more fan sense to contract with TL for English content T_T
On May 28 2011 06:14 masterbreti wrote: MY first reaction was a big fuck you to fomos. And i'm keeping that opinion. This is friggin stupid to do.
so now instead of getting a article a couple of hours after it is done, we will have to wait a week or two, such bs. Nevermind the fact that we can no longer post interviews in the forums, so we will miss so many important articles cause sdm is not translating them either .
such bullshit.
Err, people can still translate off DES just fine. (which usually has more content to their interviews anyways.)
On May 28 2011 06:14 masterbreti wrote: MY first reaction was a big fuck you to fomos. And i'm keeping that opinion. This is friggin stupid to do.
so now instead of getting a article a couple of hours after it is done, we will have to wait a week or two, such bs. Nevermind the fact that we can no longer post interviews in the forums, so we will miss so many important articles cause sdm is not translating them either .
such bullshit.
i remember when they first open the english part of the site on fomos sdm said what the translators are doing is illegal but the way he mention it was so arrogant
What do they gain from this? Can anyone explain? It's not like they were charging for the interview to being with. I would kind of understand if MBC and OGN asked us to stop restreaming, but there's just not point in stopping us to translate interviews if they're not gonna do it themselves...
I'm going to go batshit if they decide to ask for all previous fomos articles off. Tl archives have so many pictures and articles that fomos will never translate. so if they decide to do that as well. we lose so much.
also honestly it's like fomos going like "oh good job tl for using our content to build a bw fanbase, we're just going to take it over now so fuck off ^_^"
On May 28 2011 06:25 Count9 wrote: lol, it just means less links from teamliquid for sources but I guess they were pressured from their new deal, w/e shouldn't change too much.
honestly it probably has less to do with their new deal and more to do with them being jerks (see: SDM)
On May 28 2011 06:25 Ambasa wrote: also honestly it's like fomos going like "oh good job tl for using our content to build a bw fanbase, we're just going to take it over now so fuck off ^_^"
agree we always link back the articles to them and give them credit for the interview but i guess they dont like how the tl translators are better than fomos/sdm
So, how does this affect the interviews which are translated, is it only in speed (as you need to get them of DES now) or is it also that some may never be translated?.
On May 28 2011 06:26 Kipsate wrote: So, how does this affect the interviews which are translated, is it only in speed (as you need to get them of DES now) or is it also that some may never be translated?.
Also I gotta start learning Hangul.
if you consider shitty sdm translations a translation into english and not konglish, sure.
Well this sucks. I hope they're gonna get more dedicated with translating their interviews because I've been frequenting the Global section of fomos and it's soooo lacking. Not to mention I trust TL translators over fomos ones cut most of the biased bullshit out when it comes to controversies. Do we have to now go to the Chinese website or will they be posted directly on the fomos global section? The chinese websites they partner with don't have a lick of English on them. -_-
Stop using our content... because what? Because foreign fans aren't allowed to love their athletes? I mean ofcourse not but wtf is this bullshit, makes no sense whatsoever.
"Hey we are promoting Esports by using our own community and effort, we clearly give you credit etc for the interview, is that okay?" "Nope, just to because!" I see why they are so-so on their photos because they actually pay the photographs, but really? Is KeSPA involved in this?
Sorry but I am just really aggrivated by this.........
On May 28 2011 06:31 Iplaythings wrote: I... Just want a bloody REASON why.
Stop using our content... because what? Because foreign fans aren't allowed to love their athletes? I mean ofcourse not but wtf is this bullshit, makes no sense whatsoever.
"Hey we are promoting Esports by using our own community and effort, we clearly give you credit etc for the interview, is that okay?" "Nope, just to because!" I see why they are so-so on their photos because they actually pay the photographs, but really? Is KeSPA involved in this?
Sorry but I am just really aggrivated by this.........
kespa wouldnt be involve in this i guess fomos is just jealous that tl translation is better
really fomos? really??? cmon wat is this bs. if people dont get the english translation, how will this promote SC BW??? all it does is piss people off and make them say "this is only a korean game i dont have time for this bs" dang it y couldn't this be an april fools joke...
They own the content, they're entitled to do whatever they want with them. Same thing with Blizzard/KeSPA. The reason may be bullshit, but they're the one who did the interviews and took the pictures
On May 28 2011 06:25 Ambasa wrote: also honestly it's like fomos going like "oh good job tl for using our content to build a bw fanbase, we're just going to take it over now so fuck off ^_^"
A lot like a certain company who tried to take over pro BW in almost the same matter. Seriously whats the point of FOMOS doing this besides to be greedy and make more money exploiting a community who has never had any real support from them.
kind of silly move on their part... if they're going to be releasing English content, why would we have translators translating their articles that they've already translated into English? We'd just post the article link instead... I understand the pictures and all but I feel it's a little half-assed move on their part.
On May 28 2011 06:04 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves.
they recently partnered with a chinese media site to publish English content
I highly question how well a chinese media site can accurately translate a korean article into understandable english.
On May 28 2011 07:07 okum wrote: I don't really have a problem with this. Reading the interviews on the Fomos website works quite well, as long as the translations *do* appear there.
but sometimes they would not translate some articles
If that means that there will be English content available directly from Fomos, then I'm perfectly fine with it. If not, well then that is a really sad day for the foreign BW fans indeed
On May 28 2011 06:04 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves.
they recently partnered with a chinese media site to publish English content
Not too fussed over this since they now provide translations of their own. Kind of wish it could be linked on TeamLiquid since it's pretty handy to have all the news in one place.
Ouch. It wouldn't be so bad if they had a proper translator, i.e. a native English speaker who also knows Korean. Many of their current translations are cringeworthy.
I use DES all the time anyways, lol. Fomos thinks they're being boss but this hardly affects the KR -> EN translators. *edit: but if DES does the same shit then we're screwed lol
part of my routine was just reading the interview translations on TL after a PL or MSL/OSL (too lazy to go to fomos and TL translators do a good job). I guess I'm going to miss out on that from now on... those interviews and such give people a different perspectives to the players and it gives them personality :o I hope that fomos can do a decent job at translating all the interviews into decent English translations.
If Fomos does their own translation in a timely manner then I cannot really complain. I do think they are hurting their foreign community by doing this rather than helping it though.
DES interviews and content was always better anyway.
On May 28 2011 06:04 Xiphos wrote: Lol wow they must be mad because we told them to stop using our translation as their official english translation.
Yeah I suppose this is a logical revenge thing, if they can't use our stuff we don't get to use theirs. Makes sense, but no fomus articles makes me sad :[
Good job Fomos, now your Konglish translations will be even less read after this shitty stunt, way to lose website hits and (potential) long term visitors coming from this site.
I don't see how this move can in anyway benefit Fomos.
On May 28 2011 07:18 gen.Sun wrote: Can TL get a special partnership?
Yes absolutely, what's the point of trying to make BW, your site and your content more appealing to the "Global" fans if you prevent a majority of them from interacting with and addressing their content. Are they trying to get us to migrate to "Fomos Fourms"? Sorry to dissapoint but I'm stickin' with the ponies, and the Nadalites q;
Ok so Wax, would this beautiful artpiece with which I instigated another war against the Dong-boys (ask Kipsate) in NaDa's Body be allowed on TL from now-on:
Hopefully this English service they bring is good because while TL translators did not translate everything they were good at what they did do and translated extremely fast when interest was high.
It's time for someone on TL to do his part and conduct the interviews in Korea. Since Tasteless is already there, I suggest we pressure him until he agrees. And maybe pay for Korean lessons. Stop messing with them Korean girls and do some work - we need you more then ever
Posted by LML on March 28th, 2011 filed in StarCraft News Earlier today superdanielman tweeted that he will be working with fomos and that we will be able to read original articles in english soon. This morning superdanielman, mostly known from casting the GOMTV StarCraft Averatec Intel Classics alongside the furious Nick 'Tasteless' Plott, tweeted that he is going to work for fomos and that we are going to be able to read original articles in english, soon. Later on he confirmed the message saying that fomos.co.kr will start an english site and asked everyone interested in e-sports and daring to fight evil ninjas to volunteer. Simply E-mail him at broods@gmail.com and you might have the chance to help out creating something great.
1) If they ask us to take down all our old interviews, we have to comply. I doubt I'll be able to save all my old ones, and I haven't even translated that many.
2) Sometimes, DES doesn't even publish an interview (i think).
3) A VERY large majority of Chinese interviews cite fomos, so I'm pretty much out of a job here.
I always thought news articles were free to distribute as you wish as long as you gave the proper source, unlike fiction were you could only use quotes... Guess interviews and such isn't regarded as public content. :/
On May 28 2011 08:27 sushiman wrote: I always thought news articles were free to distribute as you wish as long as you gave the proper source, unlike fiction were you could only use quotes... Guess interviews and such isn't regarded as public content. :/
Derivative works (including translations) belong to the original author. It sucks, but that's how it is.
On May 28 2011 06:31 Iplaythings wrote: I... Just want a bloody REASON why.
Just my opinion (not official TL opinion): Fomos owns the content. They pay employees to create the content. They do this in the hope that they'll create traffic that'll translate into profit. In the past, they didn't care about the english-speaking market, so although they didn't approve of our translations, they didn't feel a great need to stop the community from translating. But the second they opened their english section, this outlook changed. We're now competition, basically. Worse than that, really. We're established competition for their fledgling enterprise. If their content shows up here, translated as well-- or better-- than they can do themselves, they're put at a pretty big disadvantage.
Considering this, I can't blame them for wanting to keep their content to themselves.
Don't worry, TL won't stop covering the S.Korean BW scene. If you're really hungry for Fomos-brand BW content, feel free to visit Fomos Global and get it from the source.
Wow, I hope this doesn't cause too many problems. I'm not really a fan of reading interviews, but I think it should definitely be content open to the public. I don't really see the logic behind it T_T.
Not that I cared much for Fomos before, but I've lost some respect for them just cutting off our connection to some of this esports media.
I understand the base motivation here but that doesn't make it any less stupid. TL is basically the sole reason why a fan base outside of Korea even exists. So gimping them is going to help? Right.
Sometimes, I'm just so baffled by an action taken by a person/orgization that I don't know how to respond. I'm not even mad or upset. I'm just so confused by this apparently illogical action that there's no room for anything else.
Quick question: What if translators [ looking more at chinese<>english since there are other korean sites like DES ] simply decided to link their ' interpretations ' of an article they read off fomos?
There is no copyright infringement there, right? I mean if someone links a article and says after I read this I have the following interpretations: etc...
Kind of hilarious that they do this kind of action after they blatantly copied our own translator's work. What the fuck did they have to say about that? I would really like to know what the hell they said during negotiations lol...
Wow...this is just stupid. Isn't there a way for TL to still publish interviews? For example, they may be translated with slightly different words or something.
So, when do we get netizen reactions to this? I want to see how the Koreans are taking it and whether they support the decision or not, because that is THEIR fanbase.
On May 28 2011 08:56 Murderotica wrote: So, when do we get netizen reactions to this? I want to see how the Koreans are taking it and whether they support the decision or not, because that is THEIR fanbase.
Somebody should save all the old translations and put them onto a website or blog. I mean what can Fomos do about this? I don't see how they would be able to get the stuff removed. As far as I know there is this fair use law in the US and I think as long as Fomos doesn't provide perfect translations of their stuff themselves this totally applies here. Of course I understand it if TL itself doesn't want to act like this though because it doesn't want to hurt its relationship to Fomos.
I'm never going to visit Fomos now. TL and its great writers and translators single-handedly kept the BW foreigner scene alive. They give a big "fuck you" to us and then expect to use us to make profit for themselves? Well guess what Fomos: "fuck YOU."
On May 28 2011 08:56 Murderotica wrote: So, when do we get netizen reactions to this? I want to see how the Koreans are taking it and whether they support the decision or not, because that is THEIR fanbase.
Don't know, don't care.
Well, I might be wrong but I think they would, and by extension we should too. I'm not saying you're the one that has to do them.
I think the thing we will miss the most is the pictures and the very big interviews Fomos does on players every so often. I guess we could wait for the English translation by them, but I'd rather thank someone who does it out of the love for the game and not the paycheck to churn out a translation as soon as possible with very little proof reading.
On May 28 2011 08:56 Murderotica wrote: So, when do we get netizen reactions to this? I want to see how the Koreans are taking it and whether they support the decision or not, because that is THEIR fanbase.
Don't know, don't care.
Well, I might be wrong but I think they would, and by extension we should too. I'm not saying you're the one that has to do them.
I think he means "They don't know, they don't care," not "I don't know, I don't care."
[*]Translating 100% of an interview or article word for word is infringement.
[*]You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement.
This seems rather weak. No one translates perfectly word for word from Korean to English.
As far as interviews are concerned why credit Fomos at all? Our translators are (and obviously always have been) translating directly from the post-game interview and not from any of Fomos' stuff. :D
OMFG, how many punishments we have to take by loving BW?
First the scandal, then Kespa/Blizzard and now this?
TL translators are the best because they love the game and the foreign community! I doubt Fomos can do even a half-decent job if all they care about is money.
On May 28 2011 09:57 Wihl wrote: Seems like a really bad move by fomos to be honest. How does it hurt them in any way? Shooting themselves in the foot.
It doesn't hurt them at all. It just hurts our BW community. I can understand their complaints though. I mean we used to have a lot of beef with GosuGamers.net copying and pasting our news, but this is a little bit different when you have a team of translators bring us the news in their words. I mean to paraphrase interviews feels kind of stupid because you lose even more tone (not like this wasn't already an issue before). So, what do we do now? Post a few questions and a few answers and hotlink the article here without pictures?
Looks like we need NeverGG more than ever. Funny thing is she did stuff for fomos! o;
[*]Translating 100% of an interview or article word for word is infringement.
[*]You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement.
This seems rather weak. No one translates perfectly word for word from Korean to English.
As far as interviews are concerned why credit Fomos at all? Our translators are (and obviously always have been) translating directly from the post-game interview and not from any of Fomos' stuff. :D
Couldn't say it better myself.
Why the heck are they trying to isolate the biggest foreign Brood War news site even more is my only question?
It's their own stuff, don't really see why they aren't entitled to stop the translations. They are the biggest fish in the sea, which does kinda suck, but not the only fish out there.
Regardless, thanks to all the translators who have done a wonderful job.
On May 28 2011 08:56 Murderotica wrote: So, when do we get netizen reactions to this? I want to see how the Koreans are taking it and whether they support the decision or not, because that is THEIR fanbase.
Don't know, don't care.
Well, I might be wrong but I think they would, and by extension we should too. I'm not saying you're the one that has to do them.
I think he means "They don't know, they don't care," not "I don't know, I don't care."
Oh. Guess that does make a lot more sense, as it reflects that foreigners are trash in their minds as always.
Hrm.. correct me if I´m wrong, but one main argument (other than losing TL translation team job security of course !) seems to be that right now it is really nice to have all the interviews here on TL in a way that you can search the forum for the right interview-thread.
Assuming that fomos is able to translate the interviews timely and in good quality, wouldn´t it be enough then to do what happens in other forum sections for quite some time now and just link a small part of the interview with the fomos-link to the whole translation ?
You´d still have everything kind of "here" in the sense that you find everything when you search for it, without the need of other ways to circumvent the situation.
It all depends on the quality of the fomos translation though
On May 28 2011 10:17 Espelz wrote: Hrm.. correct me if I´m wrong, but one main argument (other than losing TL translation team job security of course !) seems to be that right now it is really nice to have all the interviews here on TL in a way that you can search the forum for the right interview-thread.
Assuming that fomos is able to translate the interviews timely and in good quality, wouldn´t it be enough then to do what happens in other forum sections for quite some time now and just link a small part of the interview with the fomos-link to the whole translation ?
You´d still have everything kind of "here" in the sense that you find everything when you search for it, without the need of other ways to circumvent the situation.
It all depends on the quality of the fomos translation though
That last bit is the part that is worrying us. They must have 0 confidence in their own translators if they stole TL content, and then the fact that they partnered a CHINESE site to do English translations of Korean material does not bode well. We can't know until now, but there is clearly some lack of security about the quality of future translations. Not only that, but not all interviews have been translated, and not in a timely manner in a past. We can hope that this will be different, and I am sure that no one would seriously mind what you mentioned if indeed everything turns out fine and dandy (except TL translators maybe, but they did what they did for the community and hopefully not for any sort of status). It definitely does not cheapen their past contributions.
On May 28 2011 10:37 CanucksJC wrote: I dunno I think this decision hurts them more... I understand where they come from, but I don't really agree with it at the same time.
hmmm. this is my analogy; TL was contracted with a korean site to translate all the featured news to korean, but fomos copy pastes and translates it too on their website. would it help expand BW community? yes. would TL and especially its partner be happy? hell no.
Would everyone here know what Fomos is if it weren't for those translations? It's not like TL is some other competition community site like DES. Like I said, I guess it's something that they had to do, but I'm not going to agree that it was a good decision :s
If TL didn't have ads, you could probably still post credited translations and photos here under the protection of fair use, seeing as though it benefits the public. But, ads make it copying for commercial gain, so there's not really anything anyone can do. Kind of a shame.
Pretty lame, see where they are coming from though. Hopefully they translate articles constantly on their own time since they are taking away the option for people here to do it.
On May 28 2011 06:04 gogogadgetflow wrote: I'm having trouble imagining how english translations hosted on this site negatively affect Fomos... unless they plan to start doing some translating themselves.
they recently partnered with a chinese media site to publish English content
What do the Chinese care about copyright infringement?
Also, if photos are straight up copyright infringement, then this site (not to mention every other site on the intertubes) is in so much deep shit.
Disclaimer, the stuff you're about to read is pretty radical sounding and is mere conjecture, if I cross the line anywhere, just tell me:
I'm actually pretty dam sure that Paul Samshit, or whatever his name is, is behind this. Call me crazy and a conspirator but I wouldn't be surprised if Paul secretly asked FOMOS to forbid using their material as a secret, backwater condition in agreeing to the IP rights for BW. In his interview he stated that he would literally kill the BW scene after all.
Although it doesn't explain why DES hasn't done the same, he must've realized the majority of BW content came from FOMOS. Unfortunately, if my theory holds true, DES may or may not do the same.
I'm doing my best to control my anger and prevent it form clouding my judgement but even amidst all this, it seems hard to consider otherwise. Ok, maybe it isn't but even if there were some tensions between English translations and copy pasting material on their own site, it's not at all zero sum for FOMOS.
I mean, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put in some delay between negotiations and the banning to dispel any suspicion. In addition, without the "care" of the Korean public as Wax stated, I'm sure it was thought out. After all, FOMOS or the Korean public as a whole would've easily agreed to letting TLPD out of the loop - it doesn't hurt them as much as bowing out to another more direct concession.
On May 28 2011 11:02 Taekwon wrote: Disclaimer, the stuff you're about to read is pretty radical sounding and is mere conjecture, if I cross the line anywhere, just tell me:
I'm actually pretty dam sure that Paul Samshit, or whatever his name is, is behind this. Call me crazy and a conspirator but I wouldn't be surprised if Paul secretly asked FOMOS to forbid using their material as a secret, backwater condition in agreeing to the IP rights for BW. In his interview he stated that he would literally kill the BW scene after all.
Although it doesn't explain why DES hasn't done the same, he must've realized the majority of BW content came from FOMOS. Unfortunately, if my theory holds true, DES may or may not do the same.
I'm doing my best to control my anger and prevent it form clouding my judgement but even amidst all this, it seems hard to consider otherwise. Ok, maybe it isn't but even if there were some tensions between English translations and copy pasting material on their own site, it's not at all zero sum for FOMOS.
I mean, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put in some delay between negotiations and the banning to dispel any suspicion. In addition, without the "care" of the Korean public as Wax stated, I'm sure it was thought out. After all, FOMOS or the Korean public as a whole would've easily agreed to letting TLPD out of the loop - it doesn't hurt them as much as bowing out to another more direct concession.
It's certainly farfetched but nothing disproves it either. Wax said that Chinese media were now working with FOMOS - thus they decided to prevent TLPD from having their material. It all just seems fishy.
Nothing proves the theory, but nothing disproves it either... either way, it seems nothing can be done. So I'll leave it at that. I mean no harm.
I do not see how you can promote eSports if they are unwilling to get foreign countries translate Korean news. Fomos is not only a Korean company like it was, but it is acting like one too. Do they let Chinese forums (PlayXP, etc.) translate their articles?
On May 28 2011 10:53 NukeTheStars wrote: If TL didn't have ads, you could probably still post credited translations and photos here under the protection of fair use, seeing as though it benefits the public. But, ads make it copying for commercial gain, so there's not really anything anyone can do. Kind of a shame.
Pretty much. As soon as you guys entered this realm, they had no option. x-x
This was bound to happen, especially with fomos global. Could someone start saving all Fomos stuff (esp interview and fan stuff) and archive them and post them for everyone to save
On May 28 2011 10:53 NukeTheStars wrote: If TL didn't have ads, you could probably still post credited translations and photos here under the protection of fair use, seeing as though it benefits the public. But, ads make it copying for commercial gain, so there's not really anything anyone can do. Kind of a shame.
Well, we'd need someone more familiar with copyright law to really be sure, but I remember this from my experiences in recovering copyrighted videos. "Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use." I'd say interviews and such are for news reporting and comment purposes, so it may be allowed.
That being said, I'm not sure on the copyright laws of non-US countries. That may be a problem.
On May 28 2011 11:10 iTzAnglory wrote: I do not see how you can promote eSports if they are unwilling to get foreign countries translate Korean news. Fomos is not only a Korean company like it was, but it is acting like one too. Do they let Chinese forums (PlayXP, etc.) translate their articles?
PLU and PlaySC haven't received requests, that they stop using FOMOS content; that seems to be a TL specific thing. Although the main PlaySC translator has suggested the Chinese sites avoid FOMOS.
On May 28 2011 11:02 Taekwon wrote: Disclaimer, the stuff you're about to read is pretty radical sounding and is mere conjecture, if I cross the line anywhere, just tell me:
I'm actually pretty dam sure that Paul Samshit, or whatever his name is, is behind this. Call me crazy and a conspirator but I wouldn't be surprised if Paul secretly asked FOMOS to forbid using their material as a secret, backwater condition in agreeing to the IP rights for BW. In his interview he stated that he would literally kill the BW scene after all.
Although it doesn't explain why DES hasn't done the same, he must've realized the majority of BW content came from FOMOS. Unfortunately, if my theory holds true, DES may or may not do the same.
I'm doing my best to control my anger and prevent it form clouding my judgement but even amidst all this, it seems hard to consider otherwise. Ok, maybe it isn't but even if there were some tensions between English translations and copy pasting material on their own site, it's not at all zero sum for FOMOS.
I mean, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put in some delay between negotiations and the banning to dispel any suspicion. In addition, without the "care" of the Korean public as Wax stated, I'm sure it was thought out. After all, FOMOS or the Korean public as a whole would've easily agreed to letting TLPD out of the loop - it doesn't hurt them as much as bowing out to another more direct concession.
Thisisgame.com doesn't let us translate their sc2 stuff either. (which includes some really nice interviews with MVP, fruitdealer etc.)
Fomos: Yay! Let's promote our Global section, which, by the way, noone gives a shit about because a total of about zero people read every article when it comes out. Let's also stop our foreign BW fanbase from coming to our website at all. This is sure to be great publicity. I mean, who could resist such elegantly written English content like this?
“I can’t feel the win, it’s surreal. It’s my first time going to the finals, it’s not over yet, I can hardly contain myself right now, since it’s my first time to the finals. People have always said that I don’t have what it takes to get to the finals, only to the top 4, it took me 1 1/2 to achieve this. I’ve always started out in a z vs z, with an underhand. I want to thank NeoG)Sulkey for helping me to overcome that, he’s been great. I think I won today because of Jaedong making a mistake, and also I was able to win because of my better builds. I’ve matured a lot since last season, I would’ve lost no matter what whether it was a zerg or not last season. This is my very first time making it and I would like to make a great finale, by winning the whole thing. I think by winning against Jaedong I’ve proved that I am not a bad zerg vs zerg player. I would like to play against ‘Flash’ if possible, also I look better in person so please come to the finals to cheer me on.”
On May 28 2011 11:10 iTzAnglory wrote: I do not see how you can promote eSports if they are unwilling to get foreign countries translate Korean news. Fomos is not only a Korean company like it was, but it is acting like one too. Do they let Chinese forums (PlayXP, etc.) translate their articles?
PLU and PlaySC haven't received requests, that they stop using FOMOS content; that seems to be a TL specific thing. Although the main PlaySC translator has suggested the Chinese sites avoid FOMOS.
Oops PlaySC my bad lol =D Anyways thanks for the info, yeah if they requested TeamLiquid then it would probably be a bad idea for PlaySC to do it as well. I do not see the point of Fomos doing this, they are not losing any money or fans at all.
On May 28 2011 11:42 RinesOnRx wrote: I am a bit confused. Is it Fomos that conduct the interviews themselves or do they just post the transcript of the interviews?
It's Fomos' team of journalists. They send 1-2 people to each event depending upon scheduling and what level of importance it has (aka. Proleague usually only gets 2 people - one to take the photos and one to do the live reports/articles during the matches.) The interviews are done post-game along with the accompanying photo shoots inside the press rooms.
They actually have the biggest team in terms of Korean eSports journalism. A while ago I did some volunteer articles for them, but the lack of my own ability (or theirs) to provide a translator for my work meant I quit after a couple of months. Their office is in the same building as the We Made team house (or at least it was last year when I visited.) It's tiny, and they really do only have a small handful of people working for them.
I miss going to dinner with the journos/Kespa folks - it was always fun, and I never turn down a free meal lol. Shame I don't have a protege I could send to take photos for TL again >.>
This whole thing is pretty sad. All i can hope is that the TL translators find enough DES content to keep on going, because i read a few SDM translations while looking through the TL translation, and the TL ones are about 40x better. It kind of reads like SDM translates loosely word for word, so you end up with weird sentence structure that doesn't really flow, whereas TL translators take the time to turn the sentences into proper english.
May 27th, Fomos teamed up with Beijing Gamma Media, and will begin to provide content to China.
Gamma Media is a web company under the parent company, Xinhua News (t/n: this is huge in China), and Fomos will provide contents for xinhuanet.com and chinanews.com (t/n: both very legit and xinhuanet is very popular). News from Fomos will be translated to English as well as Chinese, in attempt to deliver eSports news as quickly as possible to its readers.
Fomos's XXX stated: "We are very happy to team up with renown Chinese news websites, we hope that Fomos will be read by everyone in the world".
I understand that TL wants to stay on good terms with Fomos, but it's not like Fomos has any actual power to stop TL from posting translations/pictures if TL wants to right?
Couldn't one of our talented translators host their own blog or website with the translations and make a blog updating the status of recent interviews and such?
This sucks.. I'm surprised 1) that they're allowed to do this, and 2) that they would want to. I mean honestly, what are they getting from barring english translations? There wouldn't even be a need for them to translate if they just let it slide.
Bad call, and it'll hurt our ability to access progamer interviews ):
Can't see myself bothering to go look at Fomos when TL has everything else I want to read.
By the way, what is this DES site that everyone's mentioning and is there any chance that they would also try to block TL from translating their content?
On May 28 2011 12:35 tomatriedes wrote: Can't see myself bothering to go look at Fomos when TL has everything else I want to read.
By the way, what is this DES site that everyone's mentioning and is there any chance that they would also try to block TL from translating their content?
On May 28 2011 12:35 tomatriedes wrote: Can't see myself bothering to go look at Fomos when TL has everything else I want to read.
By the way, what is this DES site that everyone's mentioning and is there any chance that they would also try to block TL from translating their content?
well even if we dont like fomos (anymore), we must agree they had a bunch of nice things like those 30question interviews or the ones like they did with best, hoejja and jangbi, their post-game interviews are not as good as the DES for sure tho. when they first announced fomos in english i was quite happy, i thought the whole thing would be translated and there will be fomos portal in english, then i realized it was just that "global" link with a few caps and interviews (in the begining copy-pasted from TL), well i dont think they will get that many foreign viewers with only that tbh nor that TL is threat to their site traffic but ok lets see how this pays off for them
Geeez, this is so lame. Their translated articles better be as good as TL's. Btw what are the chances that DES might pull the same move? Because then we'd really be screwed right?
On May 28 2011 14:06 Hyde wrote: Geeez, this is so lame. Their translated articles better be as good as TL's. Btw what are the chances that DES might pull the same move? Because then we'd really be screwed right?
Posted by LML on March 28th, 2011 filed in StarCraft News Later on he confirmed the message saying that fomos.co.kr will start an english site and asked everyone interested in e-sports and daring to fight evil ninjas to volunteer. Simply E-mail him at broods@gmail.com and you might have the chance to help out creating something great.
1) Volunteers translate content for the community at TL 2) Ask for community volunteers to help yourself commercially This sounds familiar?
On February 25 2009 09:27 Kennigit wrote: Situation 3 Guy> Hi Kennigit> Hi sup Guy> Hi are you Kennigit? Kennigit> Yeah who’s this? Guy> Hi im XXX, im the senior associate and executive editor in chief from XXX.com. You may have heard of us Kennigit> nope never heard of it Guy> Oh we are a big esports and WoW site Kennigit> yup never heard of it. Wanna Hear my title? Guy> hmm? Kennigit> Kennigit – Admin who bans kids and does other stuff sometimes, mainly drinks though. Guy> :p Kennigit> so sup Guy> h,mmm well im not sure how to approach this so ill just say it straight Kennigit> Ruh Roh. Ok Guy> You guys have all the best writers so I was wondering if we could have some Kennigit> lol wat Guy> Well you guys have really good coverage so I was wondering if we could approach some of your writers to offer them positions. Kennigit>……hmmm it sounds ok I just have one question Guy> Sure. Kennigit> Are you a fucking donkey? Kennigit> Hey Bill Gates, It’s Steve Jobs phoning up ‘oh sup daug how dem macs.’ “yeah can we hire your engineers cause ours suck Lolool0l0” “hey sure no prab Ll0l00l” “l0l0l0l” Guy> Well I thought I’d ask first Kennigit> You can do what you want but a) you’re a fucking donkey b) All the writers are going to laugh at you and your big baller WoW site.
On May 28 2011 06:57 nodule wrote: We can probably link to a Google translated version of the interviews before their official english xlation emerges.
No, they would have sent a cease&desist letter to Google by now not to translate anything hosted on fomos.kr.
If nobody makes money off this site, and you aren't taking away from Fomos' viewership (which is primarily based in Korea), then I don't see the problem.
Does this seriously mean we'll never see another translated interview on this site again? Or even a lousy pic?
데일리e스폳츠 > 호모스 ㅋㅋㅋ Seriously though... It's their stuff, I guess they can do whatever they want with it, though it is kind of a dick move. Oh well, time to learn korean.
Well, it's been fun Fomos. I'm not going to your site to read awful translations and for there to be no community to discuss the material. I'll stick to watching streams and reading TL content. The rest of my "reading" time is probably going more and more to PlayXP SC2 content, who have no problems with cited translation and gladly do the same of TL content. That's how you create a global community.
edit: Took a gander at their global section. The quality dropped significantly in comparison to teamliquid's volunteered translations. If someone can enlighten me on who this "sulkey" they keep referring to in zero's msl ro4 interview, that would be great.
Dude this sucks so much, now i`ll have to visit fomos to see stuff, thats not a bad thing but its sad cuz there`s no one to discuss and i might forget it... Sigh
In that case, I hope they (1) provide quality translations, (2) have them up within half a day after original interviews have been published, and (3) do so on a regular basis.
Fomos the biggest GameWebzine site in Korea signed a partnership contract with Gamma Media China.
Gamma Media is a Chinese media company not only obtaining excellent media platforms such as Xinhuanet and Zhongxinwang, but also providing professional PR consultancy services. In order to promote international communications and move up market influence internationally.
Through this partnership Fomos will have an opportunity to provide e-sports news to China’s xinhuanet.com and Chinanews.com, and Gamma Media will not only provide English articles, but also in Chinese to provide China with Korea’s e-sports news.
Fomos’ ChoiDaeYoung(CEO) commented on the new partnership “I am happy about this new found partnership, through this partnership I hope Fomos can reach out to the world.”
Nobody said anything about not translating from Gamma Media.
I would have actually provided someone with a link but that doesn't seem to be possible.
On May 28 2011 16:14 b0lt wrote: Aren't most of the fomos interviews usually just transcriptions of the post-match on-TV interviews? Can they actually claim copyright on that?
thats different those are interviews from the commentators
As if BW isnt going through enough problems already. Cant we all just get along? It feels like the Blizz vs Kespa has made the smaller guys follow in suit.
On May 28 2011 15:16 j2choe wrote: If nobody makes money off this site, and you aren't taking away from Fomos' viewership (which is primarily based in Korea), then I don't see the problem.
Does this seriously mean we'll never see another translated interview on this site again? Or even a lousy pic?
well, we arent even allowed to participate in any discussion in Fomos since registering there requires KSSN (Korean's ID)
and i doubt there will be threads openning up in TL to discuss those translated news (e.g creating a thread just to link to Fomos translated site?)
basically they just killed a bunch of international fans, and those wants to get started in BW.. TL had made it simple and accessible to almost everything..
On May 28 2011 16:14 b0lt wrote: Aren't most of the fomos interviews usually just transcriptions of the post-match on-TV interviews? Can they actually claim copyright on that?
No, TL can say that they also did the transcription of the post-match directly from tv and im sure its pretty impossible for Fomos to prove that its not.
Also, there are plenty of forms of copyright evasion, for example you just need to resize, add frames or change the color of a photo to evade the copyright.
PD: Sorry for the bad english, im not a native speaker.
Sad news, especially after they started copying TL's translations. Fomos is shooting themselves in the foot, they barely do anything to cater to foreign audiences, and TL did that without making any profit from it. They should have embraced it instead.
Someone archive and personally save all previous articles containing content? Would be a pretty fucking big shame to lose all the good work of people translating within hours of the interviews going live regardless of the time it was, just because of the love for the game.
Can they even sue if you link source and give credit where its due? All youre doing is translating...how is that even copyright infringement this is so stupid if you follow this logic me telling a non korean friend what the interview said would get me sued
I still believe TeamLiquid should pull a Kespa on them:
1/ Fomos abandoned the foreign viewers for years and never give a damn. 2/ TeamLiquid organized it and created a foreign community 3/ Therefore, TeamLiquid can claim IP rights for everything related to broodwar fandom in the foreign market.
i guess the translater team has to change up the format and put the main informations into continuous text. But anyways this is bad, because the feeling of reading an original interview is different. It feels more direct.
For the pictures - you have to change them. So that they become pieces of art and you are good to go. for example make a collage of the interviewed pplayers or use some filters and stuff.
More than anything, I feel that this will push foreign fans from SCBW to SC2. Without fomos articles and interviews, I feel the BW scene will be pretty stale.
Of course, if SDM and fomos manages to bring good english content on a frequent basis, then my worries are probably unfounded, but I know that I personally am not very keen on browsing a site where most the content is in a language I don't know.
On May 28 2011 20:52 plated.rawr wrote: More than anything, I feel that this will push foreign fans from SCBW to SC2. Without fomos articles and interviews, I feel the BW scene will be pretty stale.
man fucking fuck this fucking god damn bullshit, wtf is wrong with fomos, fuck those piece of shit idiots
and wtf is up with TL? jesus fukin christ next thing u know freakin mbc/ogn gonna threaten TL to stop all streams showing their channels and TL gonna go ahead and start banning like they did with gomtv restreams? --; wtf is this bullshit
BW outside of korea is alrdy having a hard enough time, theres no need for random bs like this at all
On May 28 2011 21:51 Hekisui wrote: So are moderators going to ban people who put in the effort to translate an interview and contribute to the community by posting it here?
I think so..in order to prevent fomos taking TL to the court..
Who conducts the interviews or are they just transcribed from the post game interviews players do? I don't see how Fomos can claim ownership of those interviews. Just translate from a different source, what are they going to do? On the bright side doing that will give SDM something better to copy/paste for Fomos
Well, someone mentioned something before which would be a possible solution, depending how stringent fomos is and how lenient TL moderation is. Just create an offsite, have translations and pictures there (change interview questions around, add stupid paintpixels to pictures) and then link those here and source them to that site. Create as many proxysites as necessary for Fomos not to be able to stop it. Seems like way too much effort for anyone to go through though, especially with the translators already putting all the effort into translating
Somehow I think it would be good for TL to clarify a few things in a news post in matters of copyright infringement and how things are handled and who @ TL actually decides which kind of action has to be taken... here are my 2 cents though:
1) Copyright infringement is a serious matter but it also is something with a huge grey area, its sometimes hard to distingiush between black and white, even a writer or a guest can often not clarify whats actually a theft and whats not and often even experts have a hard time to argue on that.
2) Copyright infringement laws have to be enforced to get punished! If there is no actual holder of a right in a certain area of the world (and fomos is no multi national company) there is hardly any way to persue a legal action. This heavily depends on where a server or host is located... China for example doesn't really have to follow international copyright laws at all legally because important global agreements weren't signed. Copyright at all gets only punished because companies pay the state to do so there...
3) This subject at all is on a thin line here on TL as many posts or even userstreams features stuff, pictures and especially music which is copyright protected... Why only on this matter? There should be a strong statement in deleting everything or setting it free...tbh for fomos, it may be especially because of hosting issues as many pictures are only hotlinked.
On May 28 2011 23:49 FakePlasticLove wrote: brb pirating a film than crediting universal studios
With piracy / plagiarism a company could bring forward the point you are harming their interests, with translations your increasing the target market of their content which does not harm their core interests.
On May 28 2011 23:49 FakePlasticLove wrote: brb pirating a film than crediting universal studios
With piracy / plagiarism a company could bring forward the point you are harming their interests, with translations your increasing the target market of their content which does not harm their core interests.
Dude, its FOMOS' contents. Say someone who can read both Korean/English want to check out e-sports proceeds to go to TL instead of FOMOS. We are essentially stealing from their site, their sponsors, etc. Instead of bitching about how FOMOS is evil, maybe you should be grateful, it allowed TL to steal from them all these times. And No, just writing "Found on fomos" doesnt justify anything
On May 29 2011 00:03 sheaRZerg wrote: Why would we have told them to stop using our translations? Bite the hand that feeds.
Wait, so we can't even link an image? Like just any random thread or blog we can't link a image of flash or jaedong that fomos took? Or does it only apply to official TL coverage stuff?
On May 28 2011 21:51 Hekisui wrote: So are moderators going to ban people who put in the effort to translate an interview and contribute to the community by posting it here?
We won't ban anyone... that's for sure. We're just forced to close the thread and remove the content
On May 29 2011 00:18 Count9 wrote: Wait, so we can't even link an image? Like just any random thread or blog we can't link a image of flash or jaedong that fomos took? Or does it only apply to official TL coverage stuff?
afaik fomos doesn't distinguish between official TL coverage and stuff our community does so i guess linking images is out of the question too although I'd wait for waxangel to confirm this.
On May 29 2011 00:03 sheaRZerg wrote: Why would we have told them to stop using our translations?
Bite the hand that feeds.
AFAIK, we just asked them to cite it. They were posting direct copy/pastes without attributing the TL translator or mentioning the site, so it appeared as their translation.
I don't know why a partnership between the two cannot be arranged. Like someone else pointed out, the images are hot linked to their website. We cite the original articles. There have been many times that I visited fomos as a result of getting my info here.
On May 29 2011 00:54 StarStruck wrote: I don't know why a partnership between the two cannot be arranged. Like someone else pointed out, the images are hot linked to their website. We cite the original articles. There have been many times that I visited fomos as a result of getting my info here.
I believe a partnership will have to be discussed between TL and the chinese site. Similar to how kaspa has to negotiate with gretech for BW rights.
TL should ask for permission from/strike a deal with DES before something someone else takes the rights.
It's funny that they have a copyright spat here just after the Korean BW scene was fighting against Blizzard's copyright claims. This isn't Burger King, stop trying to have it your way.
This saddens me, but I guess it makes sense. I don't really understand the image issue, unless it's a hotlinking problem. Fomos just doesn't understand how the foreign scene operates. They think that if we remove the content here, people will just magically go searching for that content and find Fomos. Foreigners are going to come here, and then maybe go to Fomos (in general).
On May 29 2011 00:16 sheaRZerg wrote: Dang...Google translate doesn't even work on Fomos links
I dont have time to learn Koreanuu
Edit: It actually does, but for whatever reason wont do it automatically in my version of chrome. Obviously google translate is no substitute anyways.
I'm guessing you're another of the many who do not know of the fomos english content that you can access by clicking "Global" on their website.
I understand why fomos did this since most people weren't aware that the global section existed, but they should've partnered with TL, which would've made them better off.
Understandable, and shouldn't hurt to link their stuff for discussion. That said would be interesting to strike a partnership with DES, which has much better interviews at least.
On May 28 2011 23:49 FakePlasticLove wrote: brb pirating a film than crediting universal studios
With piracy / plagiarism a company could bring forward the point you are harming their interests, with translations your increasing the target market of their content which does not harm their core interests.
Dude, its FOMOS' contents. Say someone who can read both Korean/English want to check out e-sports proceeds to go to TL instead of FOMOS. We are essentially stealing from their site, their sponsors, etc. Instead of bitching about how FOMOS is evil, maybe you should be grateful, it allowed TL to steal from them all these times. And No, just writing "Found on fomos" doesnt justify anything
On May 29 2011 00:03 sheaRZerg wrote: Why would we have told them to stop using our translations? Bite the hand that feeds.
Indeed .
And this is why sometimes I wonder if the BW community is indeed worth contributing to.
Don't talk about things when you have zero idea what you are talking about. Hell, I can't believe you're even going out of your way to mock contributors who brought you content and then going "lol you don't have rights because you stole!!!!!!" Don't be a fucking prick and get the hell over your retarded sense of "justice" and look at the big picture for once. There's many reasons why TL translators would complain over their work being stolen without credit taken to generate a profit. Not to mention Fomos also stole things that weren't their content pretty regularly from TL.
But of course, I don't expect you to understand that. But it's people like you who give contributors a bitter taste in their mouths when they contribute.
On May 29 2011 02:11 mikeymoo wrote: I just can't grasp anything that SDM does. It's like he wants to be business-minded and make big decisions but always ends up making (imho) bad ones.
I think he moves too fast and ends up having a personality conducive to being at the center of things or a leader but without the knowledge or critical thought to use it. Casting -> insurance -> PC bang -> Fomos, is this right? It's good that he has a malleable mind, but the way he keeps changing his mind betrays that he might not think things through very rigorously.
But well, I can't really wrap my head around this. TL's ads are subsistence only from what I recall, though maybe this is different with TL HQ being open. I'm reading fomos global right now, and all I see are KR ads. Do you guys from foreign IPs only see KR ads too? If they don't have an ad package for the English audience, they couldn't possibly be losing any money by the content being translated on TL. Maybe they have some plan for the future, but I don't have any idea what it could be. The best English content will always be here, the same way we couldn't pick up a KR audience worth shit if people like me stammered out articles written in Korean.
So this actually started 2 months ago... and he just copy/pasted the work of TL translators on SWL Hwaseung vs SKT with no recognition for TL when TL translators always give credit or rehost pictures as bandwidth courtesy. Crediting is a basic courtesy and it means "we're amenable to talking about how your content gets used, but right now you don't release anything in English so we're going to fill that role for fans in a non-profit way." Not crediting is childish and ham-fisted.
Anyway, I shouldn't give it attention, it's like a car wreck. I wouldn't bother giving them hits. A possible good result would be intermingling between KR and foreign fans, but there's a difference between KR sites and TL quality control, and none of us wants to pass the time with a bunch of ESL tdots.
On May 28 2011 11:02 Taekwon wrote: Disclaimer, the stuff you're about to read is pretty radical sounding and is mere conjecture, if I cross the line anywhere, just tell me:
I'm actually pretty dam sure that Paul Samshit, or whatever his name is, is behind this. Call me crazy and a conspirator but I wouldn't be surprised if Paul secretly asked FOMOS to forbid using their material as a secret, backwater condition in agreeing to the IP rights for BW. In his interview he stated that he would literally kill the BW scene after all.
Although it doesn't explain why DES hasn't done the same, he must've realized the majority of BW content came from FOMOS. Unfortunately, if my theory holds true, DES may or may not do the same.
I'm doing my best to control my anger and prevent it form clouding my judgement but even amidst all this, it seems hard to consider otherwise. Ok, maybe it isn't but even if there were some tensions between English translations and copy pasting material on their own site, it's not at all zero sum for FOMOS.
I mean, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to put in some delay between negotiations and the banning to dispel any suspicion. In addition, without the "care" of the Korean public as Wax stated, I'm sure it was thought out. After all, FOMOS or the Korean public as a whole would've easily agreed to letting TLPD out of the loop - it doesn't hurt them as much as bowing out to another more direct concession.
as the OP did not mention, this is ALL SuperDanielMan.
He specifically stated that when he first got his gig as FOMOS editor, he absolutely did not want FOMOS content to be published anywhere. He made it seem as if FOMOS content is worth a lot of money and having its content posted elsewhere would lose a lot of money for FOMOS.
You guys should read his articles about SC2. Complete propaganda opinions of why SC2 is dead because he wasn't hired as a consultant for Blizzard.
This is so weird how when BW needs support most it keep blowing up internally. Finally gets over the KeSPA/Blizz bullshit and now English fans can't read translations from one of the largest sites.
Do people in Korea realize how dead BW is outside of Korea? (not being sarcastic, actually asking here)
On May 29 2011 04:25 broz0rs wrote: as the OP did not mention, this is ALL SuperDanielMan.
He specifically stated that when he first got his gig as FOMOS editor, he absolutely did not want FOMOS content to be published anywhere. He made it seem as if FOMOS content is worth a lot of money and having its content posted elsewhere would lose a lot of money for FOMOS.
You guys should read his articles about SC2. Complete propaganda opinions of why SC2 is dead because he wasn't hired as a consultant for Blizzard.
If that's true then I have lost the tiny shred of respect I had for the man.
I've had him on twitter for a while, and yeah I was wondering what was up with SDM... He's too bitter about anything he does, cutting off translations is pretty retarded.
Oh and not to mention that when he announced he would be working with fomos he also put tasteless' name everywhere, since then SDM has been ranting against SC2, going against the foreign community and this obviously has nothing to do (and kinda sounds aggressive against) tasteless' position as a sc2 caster.
I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding this decision, except for Fomos' photos. Though, TL uses their images with a clear FOMOS logo on them. Why do they care that a group of maybe 5k BW fans are reading an article translated into English? It's not like people are publishing this in print or something.
On May 29 2011 04:41 sharkeyanti wrote: I'm having a lot of difficulty understanding this decision, except for Fomos' photos. Though, TL uses their images with a clear FOMOS logo on them. Why do they care that a group of maybe 5k BW fans are reading an article translated into English? It's not like people are publishing this in print or something.
I have a theory, and it totally revolves around SDM. It's based off no info whatsoever but it seems to be the only thing I can come up with.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. 1: SDM does all his BW stuff pre SC2 beta. 2: SC2 rolls around, SDM wants to work for blizz, they are not impressed by his performance. They say no. 3: SDM gets mad since his PC Bang is apparently not working out well (in one of his video blogs he mentioned things at the Bang were not going well and the hours sucked) 4: He develops anti-blizz/anti-sc2 feelings, and uses this bias to determine that SC2 will never take off in Korea.
Now one of three things happened after, so I'll do a 5A, 5B, and 5C
5A: Fomos hires him, he jacks a TL article. When TL brings it up he feels embarrassed for stealing an article with no citation to the source, even more so since he was always someone who preached about manners and respect. Instead of admitting "yea my bad, I didn't think about it" , he gets mad and cuts off TL.
5B: Fomos hires him, he jacks a TL article. However he uses his own biased views to determine that SC2 is not flying in Korea, so it will be only a matter of time till SC2 fails worldwide and all sc2 players move back to SC1. He is preparing for this impossible and stupid scenario.
5C: Fomos hires him, he jacks a TL article. He is fully unaware of how dead BW is outside of Korea and cuts off TL thinking that FOMOS will get a massive surge of traffic from all the foreign BW fans out there. What he fails to realize is there is like not many fans left, and this is not Korea.
I got to think it's 5A but who knows.
Again this is based off NO EVIDENCE. I am VERY out of the loop in the behind the scenes on BW so just guessing myself here.
Like someone sorta hinted at the direction and following that post, can't we have a non-for-profit non-ad website just for English translations so that it can be under "fair use educational purposes?" That way, there is nothing they can do for that site since there's no money making unlike in TL with ads (thus unable to even give the option to fight without risks) and have a cleaner format of viewers who are simply interested in interviews to go to?
Another poster said about how we can link those other sites with translations of interviews there so I want to clarify that again, is that legal and possible on TL? Basically having a 3-party system:
FOMOS Interviews (in Korean) <---> New site just for English translations and interviews <---> TL threads with basic brief summary + link of that new site
Edit: While we're at it, we should also put all the archives (for safety) AND NaDa thread into that new site too if this works out. :D
While I don't like this decision, if Fomos can get translations out as fast as TL, then I'll have a new tab on my browser. Otherwise, I will be very sad because I won't be able to get the news in a quick manner, like I can on TL.
To the people angry at fomos, instead of bitching at them, we need to try to understand things from their perspective. Some people don't like it when others take their work and use it or distribute it somewhere else. I would be annoyed too, even if it doesn't necessarily hurt me. Someone may take it further than just annoyance, see? And someone mentioned how fomos just has a bunch of korean ads that westerners can't read; well its not just about that. The more viewership and clicks you get on your website, the more money you can make from ads. so whether or not you can read korean doesn't make sense. so fomos may want to make more money from website viewership from foreign communities.
I don't know if fomos is being anal like this from a purely business standpoint or for some other reason, its their right and its their work - do you guys think just because they get BW news up real quick they don't do any work for it? - so they can do what they want with it. And plus, TL has been taking stuff from fomos this entire time and it technically is blatant stealing/plagirism even if we cite or whatnot. So it's not like TL hasn't done anything wrong either.
I personally read fomos and not DES because fomos tbh is a lot more fun and interesting. But DES has match interviews and are updated pretty quickly and unless they want to be dicks too, it's not like the foreign BW community is going to blow up or something because people will still be able to translate interviews
So this is SDM's job? Does he think he will make more people come to fomos and read his arcticles this way? Is he doing it out of spite? Isn't he quite delusional about popularity of BW outside of Korea?
On May 29 2011 04:15 travis wrote: Can't people just upload translations to another site, and then link to it..?
That's why I asked, no one replied.
From a pure legal perspective it should work. It' similiar to thepiratebay who dont really host the content (movies, games, ...) but only provide links (to the torrentfiles) to it.
I know from German websites, that something like this is useful: + Show Spoiler +
Haftungshinweis: Trotz sorgfältiger inhaltlicher Kontrolle übernehmen wir keine Haftung für die Inhalte externer Links. Für den Inhalt der verlinkten Seiten sind ausschließlich deren Betreiber verantwortlich.
("liability note: even though we visit the content, we cannot be held responsible for the content of external links. Only the operators of linked sites are responsible for said content").
So the operator of the "other site" where the translations are uploaded might get (legal) trouble with fomos.
But (!) we (and TL) know this is only to circumvent the restrictions. If TL would allow those links they would do something which fomos doesnt like and still allow it. They probably would remove those links out of courtesy to fomos (similiar how they remove links to restreams of gomtv).
Super daniel man's a piece of shit from the sound of things. This really sucks. Does someone wanna make a site where people can post the translations and then we can just link to there from TL?
but can someone post a link to the site they are partnering with... Doesn't this just mean in the LR thread after the matches are done someone sticks the link to this chinese site that is doing work for us?
I really hope that we don't have to remove our past interviews though... >.<
I'm not going to talk too much details about it, and will only talk about things that I know of.
I said I'll help SDM thinking that it would be great to fomos, in addition to the TL stuff we have. However, out of blue, he steals the translations from TL without any citations. I get confused, but I never brought anything up in our one-on-one conversation. I go through another day with live coverage of the semi-finals (I think), but after that day I started making excuses, telling him that I was busy (Before I started making excuses, SDM offered to pay me, which I replied 'maybe'). After that, I cut off contact with him (SDM if you're reading this now, well, now you know).
Before cutting off contact though, SDM wanted his volunteers to keep fomos's materials only on their site.
Was this SDM's idea or someone else's? We won't know the exact cause 100%, but we can assume based on the current events. And in my point of view, that assumption is probably a good one.
I don't know the details of the negotiations between teamliquid and fomos, so I can't say too much about that.
P.S. What happened in the irc chatroom was stupid; I was being overly dramatic. My apologies Kiante.
P.S.S. If you have any questions, ask away. I will try to answer as best as I can.
I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
On May 29 2011 07:30 supernovamaniac wrote: Breaking out the silence.
I'm not going to talk too much details about it, and will only talk about things that I know of.
I said I'll help SDM thinking that it would be great to fomos, in addition to the TL stuff we have. However, out of blue, he steals the translations from TL without any citations. I get confused, but I never brought anything up in our one-on-one conversation. I go through another day with live coverage of the semi-finals (I think), but after that day I started making excuses, telling him that I was busy (Before I started making excuses, SDM offered to pay me, which I replied 'maybe'). After that, I cut off contact with him (SDM if you're reading this now, well, now you know).
Before cutting off contact though, SDM wanted his volunteers to keep fomos's materials only on their site.
Was this SDM's idea or someone else's? We won't know the exact cause 100%, but we can assume based on the current events. And in my point of view, that assumption is probably a good one.
I don't know the details of the negotiations between teamliquid and fomos, so I can't say too much about that.
P.S. What happened in the irc chatroom was stupid; I was being overly dramatic. My apologies Kiante.
P.S.S. If you have any questions, ask away. I will try to answer as best as I can.
Wait what? Did you offer to join FOMOS as a translator? What exactly did you offer to do to help?
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Unfortunately, us law doesn't apply to a dispute between a korean company and a dutch website. Even if legal TL doesn't have to respect it, I don't think we would blatantly go against what they want anyway.
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
It may or may not be US law, it's definitely not Korean law. We don't live in Korea, after all.
On May 29 2011 07:30 supernovamaniac wrote: Breaking out the silence.
I'm not going to talk too much details about it, and will only talk about things that I know of.
I said I'll help SDM thinking that it would be great to fomos, in addition to the TL stuff we have. However, out of blue, he steals the translations from TL without any citations. I get confused, but I never brought anything up in our one-on-one conversation. I go through another day with live coverage of the semi-finals (I think), but after that day I started making excuses, telling him that I was busy (Before I started making excuses, SDM offered to pay me, which I replied 'maybe'). After that, I cut off contact with him (SDM if you're reading this now, well, now you know).
Before cutting off contact though, SDM wanted his volunteers to keep fomos's materials only on their site.
Was this SDM's idea or someone else's? We won't know the exact cause 100%, but we can assume based on the current events. And in my point of view, that assumption is probably a good one.
I don't know the details of the negotiations between teamliquid and fomos, so I can't say too much about that.
P.S. What happened in the irc chatroom was stupid; I was being overly dramatic. My apologies Kiante.
P.S.S. If you have any questions, ask away. I will try to answer as best as I can.
Wait what? Did you offer to join FOMOS as a translator? What exactly did you offer to do to help?
SDM was looking for volunteers on some translation project, I decided to help him out. This was all before the incident happened.
The basic idea was to help fomos/SDM out on the globals page, which has English articles; translated or written by the English volunteers (that was me). I think I did one translation and one live coverage of the matches. No one was officially 'joining' fomos. However, after some period of time, we were called interns (I pulled out from the 'project' when this happend).
So this SuperDanialMan is the bad guy now?.. Well im not really sure who he is but it works for me i guess.. I need a bad guy to hate on now anyways.. T_T
Cmon i really hope i wont be missing out on all the Bisu interviews .. And the Woongjin ones of course
On May 29 2011 07:46 ffreakk wrote: So this SuperDanialMan is the bad guy now?.. Well im not really sure who he is but it works for me i guess.. I need a bad guy to hate on now anyways.. T_T
Cmon i really hope i wont be missing out on all the Bisu interviews .. And the Woongjin ones of course
In my honest opinion, both sides were being 'bad', if you want to put it in that way.
SDM called out on TL stealing fomos stuff, but didn't think that stealing from TL was bad.
Some, if not most, translators on TL called out on SDM for stealing TL stuff, but didn't acknowledge (or didn't know) that using fomos content is not allowed.
In the end, things could've worked out, but it didn't. And here we are.
On May 29 2011 07:30 supernovamaniac wrote: Breaking out the silence.
I'm not going to talk too much details about it, and will only talk about things that I know of.
I said I'll help SDM thinking that it would be great to fomos, in addition to the TL stuff we have. However, out of blue, he steals the translations from TL without any citations. I get confused, but I never brought anything up in our one-on-one conversation. I go through another day with live coverage of the semi-finals (I think), but after that day I started making excuses, telling him that I was busy (Before I started making excuses, SDM offered to pay me, which I replied 'maybe'). After that, I cut off contact with him (SDM if you're reading this now, well, now you know).
Before cutting off contact though, SDM wanted his volunteers to keep fomos's materials only on their site.
Was this SDM's idea or someone else's? We won't know the exact cause 100%, but we can assume based on the current events. And in my point of view, that assumption is probably a good one.
I don't know the details of the negotiations between teamliquid and fomos, so I can't say too much about that.
P.S. What happened in the irc chatroom was stupid; I was being overly dramatic. My apologies Kiante.
P.S.S. If you have any questions, ask away. I will try to answer as best as I can.
Wait what? Did you offer to join FOMOS as a translator? What exactly did you offer to do to help?
SDM was looking for volunteers on some translation project, I decided to help him out. This was all before the incident happened.
The basic idea was to help fomos/SDM out on the globals page, which has English articles; translated or written by the English volunteers (that was me). I think I did one translation and one live coverage of the matches. No one was officially 'joining' fomos. However, after some period of time, we were called interns (I pulled out from the 'project' when this happend).
And this is why Korea will never be recognized as anything in the world. He's just pulling the typical Korean hierarchical bullshit. If they want to compete with TL for English coverage of BW maybe SDM should learn to write English at higher than a second-grade level.
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
It may or may not be US law, it's definitely not Korean law. We don't live in Korea, after all.
I don't think a Korean Court would have jurisdiction over TL, to be honest. A U.S. court definitely would, and fomos certainly can sue in U.S. court. When you look to jurisdiction you have to analyze with respect to the defendant. If TL did stuff in Korea or directed content toward Koreans then it might be different.
On May 29 2011 07:30 supernovamaniac wrote: Breaking out the silence.
I'm not going to talk too much details about it, and will only talk about things that I know of.
I said I'll help SDM thinking that it would be great to fomos, in addition to the TL stuff we have. However, out of blue, he steals the translations from TL without any citations. I get confused, but I never brought anything up in our one-on-one conversation. I go through another day with live coverage of the semi-finals (I think), but after that day I started making excuses, telling him that I was busy (Before I started making excuses, SDM offered to pay me, which I replied 'maybe'). After that, I cut off contact with him (SDM if you're reading this now, well, now you know).
Before cutting off contact though, SDM wanted his volunteers to keep fomos's materials only on their site.
Was this SDM's idea or someone else's? We won't know the exact cause 100%, but we can assume based on the current events. And in my point of view, that assumption is probably a good one.
I don't know the details of the negotiations between teamliquid and fomos, so I can't say too much about that.
P.S. What happened in the irc chatroom was stupid; I was being overly dramatic. My apologies Kiante.
P.S.S. If you have any questions, ask away. I will try to answer as best as I can.
Wait what? Did you offer to join FOMOS as a translator? What exactly did you offer to do to help?
SDM was looking for volunteers on some translation project, I decided to help him out. This was all before the incident happened.
The basic idea was to help fomos/SDM out on the globals page, which has English articles; translated or written by the English volunteers (that was me). I think I did one translation and one live coverage of the matches. No one was officially 'joining' fomos. However, after some period of time, we were called interns (I pulled out from the 'project' when this happend).
And this is why Korea will never be recognized as anything in the world. He's just pulling the typical Korean hierarchical bullshit. If they want to compete with TL for English coverage of BW maybe SDM should learn to write English at higher than a second-grade level.
At first, I doubted myself, but the more and more I think about it, you might be right.
(Not the English part though; my English is terribad)
Well I'm sure as hell against this if it means ANYTHING having to do with NaDa's Body is in trouble.
Fuck, YOU DON'T FUCK WITH NaDa's Body! Nadalites wake up yo!
But I do really hope we can come to an agreement, that we can still at least post funny progamer pictures. Seriously the number one way to kill ANY remaining BW fans it to prevent them from interacting with the content, meaning being able to LOL@ coming of ages interviews, hilarious akward progamer photos, Stork and his mobile phone games. If you take that away WE WON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO BE FANS WITH, so how and why would we be fans?
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
It may or may not be US law, it's definitely not Korean law. We don't live in Korea, after all.
I don't think a Korean Court would have jurisdiction over TL, to be honest. A U.S. court definitely would, and fomos certainly can sue in U.S. court. When you look to jurisdiction you have to analyze with respect to the defendant. If TL did stuff in Korea or directed content toward Koreans then it might be different.
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
It may or may not be US law, it's definitely not Korean law. We don't live in Korea, after all.
I don't think a Korean Court would have jurisdiction over TL, to be honest. A U.S. court definitely would, and fomos certainly can sue in U.S. court. When you look to jurisdiction you have to analyze with respect to the defendant. If TL did stuff in Korea or directed content toward Koreans then it might be different.
TL is not a US website.
Hosted on data center/servers based in New York, USA with Headquarters in the New York, USA. It probably has a case to being considered a US Website.
9. Governing Law Any claim relating to TeamLiquid's web site shall be governed by the laws of the State of New York without regard to its conflict of law provisions.
On May 29 2011 07:35 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: I think TL has a valid defense to keep the works that have already been translated. This is under U.S. Copyright law applying the doctrine of laches (a doctrine that basically says you can't sit on your rights especially if you know infringement has been occurring for awhile):
The doctrine of laches is an equitable doctrine that prevents a plaintiff who “with full knowledge of the facts, acquiesces in a transaction and sleeps upon his rights.” Southern Pac. Co. v. Bogert 250 U.S. 483, 500 (1919). In the copyright context Learned Hand justified the doctrine by stating:
It must be obvious to everyone familiar with equitable principles that it is inequitable for the owner of a copyright, with full notice of an intended infringement, to stand inactive while the proposed infringer spends large sums of money in its exploitation, and to intervene only when his speculation has proved a success. Delay under such circumstances allows the owner to speculate without risk with the other's money; he cannot possibly lose, and he may win. Haas v. Leo Feist, Inc., 234 F.105, 108 (S.D.N.Y. 1916).
In the Ninth Circuit the defendant must prove both an unreasonable delay by the plaintiff and prejudice to itself. Basically, I am pretty sure fomos knew for awhile what TL was doing and didn't care and only now it is. It precludes TL from continuing infringement, but for the previous works it seems a little more questionable (not that TL has the money/manpower to litigate this).
Now I know nothing about law, but does US copyright law even apply to this? Or is it korean copyright law?
It may or may not be US law, it's definitely not Korean law. We don't live in Korea, after all.
I don't think a Korean Court would have jurisdiction over TL, to be honest. A U.S. court definitely would, and fomos certainly can sue in U.S. court. When you look to jurisdiction you have to analyze with respect to the defendant. If TL did stuff in Korea or directed content toward Koreans then it might be different.
TL is not a US website.
TL is a U.S. corporation (incorporated in Delaware).
EDIT*
*More info: Legal actions are generally between corporations or individuals not against a website. Being a U.S. corporation is enough to have jurisdiction within the United States. The server part, may be enough for jx (supposing TL was not incorporated within the U.S.) via an "in rem" action, as basis for jurisdiction. If you are curious about jurisdictional law regarding TL or Korea, feel free to read this blog post
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
Also please read the OP
"You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement."
On May 29 2011 02:24 Ambasa wrote: And this is why sometimes I wonder if the BW community is indeed worth contributing to.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
Also what's with all these talks of taking legal action? The mods and the higher ups of the forum have accepted this, why cant you guys quit your pointless talk. It's tragic, but the foreign scene can still thrive.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
Also please read the OP
"You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement."
On May 29 2011 02:24 Ambasa wrote: And this is why sometimes I wonder if the BW community is indeed worth contributing to.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
Also what's with all these talks of taking legal action? The mods and the higher ups of the forum have accepted this, why cant you guys quit your pointless talk. It's tragic, but the foreign scene can still thrive.
zona's 2nd example (which you so conveniently ignored) is much more similar to what sdm was calling blatantly illegal.
they copy the entire article, then cite the source
the difference would be that fomos didn't actually add any value to the article, unlike the tl translators who at least bring it into another language
LOL, for some reason I just always presumed that SDM and John the Translator were the same person. Now I remember SDM as being that shitty 'English' caster from the GOM tournaments who was super annoying to listen to. No wonder Blizzard wouldn't have wanted to hire him. I agree with the comment earlier by someone talking about how he really needs to learn English above a second grade level - he's on par with Kelly "cuntslits" Milkies.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
Also please read the OP
"You can still cite a Fomos article and relate the general story, but translating entire block segments of an article or interview is infringement."
On May 29 2011 02:24 Ambasa wrote: And this is why sometimes I wonder if the BW community is indeed worth contributing to.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
Also what's with all these talks of taking legal action? The mods and the higher ups of the forum have accepted this, why cant you guys quit your pointless talk. It's tragic, but the foreign scene can still thrive.
zona's 2nd example (which you so conveniently ignored) is much more similar to what sdm was calling blatantly illegal.
they copy the entire article, then cite the source
the difference would be that fomos didn't actually add any value to the article, unlike the tl translators who at least bring it into another language
I conveniently ignored to do so, cause after the first one, my IQ went down. And you conveniently ignored my entire point.
1) You don't even know if they do have an agreement. Let's not assume things out of our ass here. 2) Perhaps a huge newspaper company doesn't give a damn? And if they do, of course Fomos should/would take it down. Just like TL shouldn't/cannot upload Fomos contents directly anymore.
For someone who claims to see the whole picture and accuses all people for being shortsighted, it's hilarious how little you know of the actual situation at hand and all the assumptions you have put into your posts.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Actually, Fomos Global has taken A TON of random articles that definitely did not originate from Fomos. Do you want to see?
A "few" examples. You want to know what's worse? Fomos has also taken articles that were translated off DES, changed the pictures, and claimed it as their own.
There are other examples of this, but let's not get into this.
Please, don't call people stupid and try to justify when Fomos has been guilty of exactly the same thing.
Alright, that's just an aside. Let me deal with your ignorant yet so flippant attitude now.
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
It's actually hilarious how you assume this is what the translators think. No, of course we know that we need explicit permission from Fomos and the like, and of course, TeamLiquid has profited off of the works done by reporters of FighterForum, Fomos, Daily E-Sports and many others. It's hilarious that you think that we think that way.
The point is this: You assume that we thought it was okay and we're just being angry about it because of that. No, that was never the problem. The problem had to do with 1) Fomos not citing the translators (which they did later so w/e), 2) Fomos stealing content that was not theirs (which is very hypocritical), 3) Implying that translation is not work when I could easily go on and make 50+ dollars an hour translating. I can go on and on but I think these three reasons are enough to drill into your thick and arrogant little head that what you think isn't quite how we actually think.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
FYI: I am Milkis. This is my smurf account -- I'm not posting under the account atm for obvious reasons. Thanks for insulting all the work I have ever done for the community, especially by implying they weren't contributions at all. It's just absolutely brilliant to know you're appreciated around here, right?
Great to know people like you exist. Well, have fun with your "grand" vision of e-Sports. Enjoy your god damn konglish.
On May 29 2011 05:36 white_horse wrote: To the people angry at fomos, instead of bitching at them, we need to try to understand things from their perspective. Some people don't like it when others take their work and use it or distribute it somewhere else. I would be annoyed too, even if it doesn't necessarily hurt me. Someone may take it further than just annoyance, see? And someone mentioned how fomos just has a bunch of korean ads that westerners can't read; well its not just about that. The more viewership and clicks you get on your website, the more money you can make from ads. so whether or not you can read korean doesn't make sense. so fomos may want to make more money from website viewership from foreign communities.
I don't know if fomos is being anal like this from a purely business standpoint or for some other reason, its their right and its their work - do you guys think just because they get BW news up real quick they don't do any work for it? - so they can do what they want with it. And plus, TL has been taking stuff from fomos this entire time and it technically is blatant stealing/plagirism even if we cite or whatnot. So it's not like TL hasn't done anything wrong either.
I personally read fomos and not DES because fomos tbh is a lot more fun and interesting. But DES has match interviews and are updated pretty quickly and unless they want to be dicks too, it's not like the foreign BW community is going to blow up or something because people will still be able to translate interviews
You're ignoring the fact that Fomos were posting stuff from TL without even citing it, so that makes their position pretty hypocritical. Both websites were posting each other's content but at least TL were giving them credit with citations. I'm pretty sure a lot of the foreign community wouldn't have even known about Fomos if it wasn't for the citations they got on TL, so it was probably still a net gain for them.
I'm not sure about others but this isn't going to make me rush over to Fomos now. If they had been more cooperative about it then I may feel differently it but this, in my opinion, is not the best way to deal with the issue.
For someone who claims to see the whole picture and accuses all people for being shortsighted, it's hilarious how little you know of the actual situation at hand and all the assumptions you have put into your posts.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Actually, Fomos Global has taken A TON of random articles that definitely did not originate from Fomos. Do you want to see?
A "few" examples. You want to know what's worse? Fomos has also taken articles that were translated off DES, changed the pictures, and claimed it as their own.
There are other examples of this, but let's not get into this.
Please, don't call people stupid and try to justify when Fomos has been guilty of exactly the same thing.
Alright, that's just an aside. Let me deal with your ignorant yet so flippant attitude now.
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
It's actually hilarious how you assume this is what the translators think. No, of course we know that we need explicit permission from Fomos and the like, and of course, TeamLiquid has profited off of the works done by reporters of FighterForum, Fomos, Daily E-Sports and many others. It's hilarious that you think that we think that way.
The point is this: You assume that we thought it was okay and we're just being angry about it because of that. No, that was never the problem. The problem had to do with 1) Fomos not citing the translators (which they did later so w/e), 2) Fomos stealing content that was not theirs (which is very hypocritical), 3) Implying that translation is not work when I could easily go on and make 50+ dollars an hour translating. I can go on and on but I think these three reasons are enough to drill into your thick and arrogant little head that what you think isn't quite how we actually think.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
FYI: I am Milkis. This is my smurf account -- I'm not posting under the account atm for obvious reasons. Thanks for insulting all the work I have ever done for the community, especially by implying they weren't contributions at all. It's just absolutely brilliant to know you're appreciated around here, right?
Great to know people like you exist. Well, have fun with your "grand" vision of e-Sports. Enjoy your god damn konglish.
Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from Fomos. And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners. Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
On May 29 2011 13:57 Ambasa wrote: [spoilers] For someone who claims to see the whole picture and accuses all people for being shortsighted, it's hilarious how little you know of the actual situation at hand and all the assumptions you have put into your posts.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Actually, Fomos Global has taken A TON of random articles that definitely did not originate from Fomos. Do you want to see?
A "few" examples. You want to know what's worse? Fomos has also taken articles that were translated off DES, changed the pictures, and claimed it as their own.
There are other examples of this, but let's not get into this.
Please, don't call people stupid and try to justify when Fomos has been guilty of exactly the same thing.
Alright, that's just an aside. Let me deal with your ignorant yet so flippant attitude now.
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
It's actually hilarious how you assume this is what the translators think. No, of course we know that we need explicit permission from Fomos and the like, and of course, TeamLiquid has profited off of the works done by reporters of FighterForum, Fomos, Daily E-Sports and many others. It's hilarious that you think that we think that way.
The point is this: You assume that we thought it was okay and we're just being angry about it because of that. No, that was never the problem. The problem had to do with 1) Fomos not citing the translators (which they did later so w/e), 2) Fomos stealing content that was not theirs (which is very hypocritical), 3) Implying that translation is not work when I could easily go on and make 50+ dollars an hour translating. I can go on and on but I think these three reasons are enough to drill into your thick and arrogant little head that what you think isn't quite how we actually think.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
FYI: I am Milkis. This is my smurf account -- I'm not posting under the account atm for obvious reasons. Thanks for insulting all the work I have ever done for the community, especially by implying they weren't contributions at all. It's just absolutely brilliant to know you're appreciated around here, right?
Great to know people like you exist. Well, have fun with your "grand" vision of e-Sports. Enjoy your god damn konglish.
[/spoilers] Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from FOMOS. And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners. Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
Ahh the irony.
@Seeker: If they demand past threads/pictures to be taken down, yes. New ones will be locked/deleted.
For someone who claims to see the whole picture and accuses all people for being shortsighted, it's hilarious how little you know of the actual situation at hand and all the assumptions you have put into your posts.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Actually, Fomos Global has taken A TON of random articles that definitely did not originate from Fomos. Do you want to see?
A "few" examples. You want to know what's worse? Fomos has also taken articles that were translated off DES, changed the pictures, and claimed it as their own.
There are other examples of this, but let's not get into this.
Please, don't call people stupid and try to justify when Fomos has been guilty of exactly the same thing.
Alright, that's just an aside. Let me deal with your ignorant yet so flippant attitude now.
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
It's actually hilarious how you assume this is what the translators think. No, of course we know that we need explicit permission from Fomos and the like, and of course, TeamLiquid has profited off of the works done by reporters of FighterForum, Fomos, Daily E-Sports and many others. It's hilarious that you think that we think that way.
The point is this: You assume that we thought it was okay and we're just being angry about it because of that. No, that was never the problem. The problem had to do with 1) Fomos not citing the translators (which they did later so w/e), 2) Fomos stealing content that was not theirs (which is very hypocritical), 3) Implying that translation is not work when I could easily go on and make 50+ dollars an hour translating. I can go on and on but I think these three reasons are enough to drill into your thick and arrogant little head that what you think isn't quite how we actually think.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
FYI: I am Milkis. This is my smurf account -- I'm not posting under the account atm for obvious reasons. Thanks for insulting all the work I have ever done for the community, especially by implying they weren't contributions at all. It's just absolutely brilliant to know you're appreciated around here, right?
Great to know people like you exist. Well, have fun with your "grand" vision of e-Sports. Enjoy your god damn konglish.
Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from Fomos. And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners. Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
Profits? TL making profits without permission? I'm sorry but I fail to catch those words properly. The TL translators and writers on this site are all doing it for free. They aren't employees nor actual workers being paid when they are VOLUNTARY (for free) providing the English translations MANY OTHERS would want.
And obviously these people do have a life doing other things or that they could have spend countless hours doing something else more productive instead of translating. Unless you mean TL site in general but you just targeted toward the TL translators in general so your complaint is now all moot.
So please think carefully and consider what exactly is the line here on the next post of the contributions and work that's being done between either parties and exactly WHO benefits who and where it all goes to.
For someone who claims to see the whole picture and accuses all people for being shortsighted, it's hilarious how little you know of the actual situation at hand and all the assumptions you have put into your posts.
Are you seriously that stupid? First of all, it's not even the article, but just an intro to the list, promoting and linking it back to the original website. Tons of gaming site such as N4G, 1up do this. I wouldn't be surprised if they had an agreement to place that in there. Do you see daily IGN articles/pictures translated on Fomos? Do you think people will go to Fomos now to check out IGN articles? It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Actually, Fomos Global has taken A TON of random articles that definitely did not originate from Fomos. Do you want to see?
A "few" examples. You want to know what's worse? Fomos has also taken articles that were translated off DES, changed the pictures, and claimed it as their own.
There are other examples of this, but let's not get into this.
Please, don't call people stupid and try to justify when Fomos has been guilty of exactly the same thing.
Alright, that's just an aside. Let me deal with your ignorant yet so flippant attitude now.
And seriously you can't just cite the original source and say "kekeke it's all okay now." You don't make up your own rules like that.
It's actually hilarious how you assume this is what the translators think. No, of course we know that we need explicit permission from Fomos and the like, and of course, TeamLiquid has profited off of the works done by reporters of FighterForum, Fomos, Daily E-Sports and many others. It's hilarious that you think that we think that way.
The point is this: You assume that we thought it was okay and we're just being angry about it because of that. No, that was never the problem. The problem had to do with 1) Fomos not citing the translators (which they did later so w/e), 2) Fomos stealing content that was not theirs (which is very hypocritical), 3) Implying that translation is not work when I could easily go on and make 50+ dollars an hour translating. I can go on and on but I think these three reasons are enough to drill into your thick and arrogant little head that what you think isn't quite how we actually think.
Oh the irony is strong with this one. I'm missing the bigger picture when you're just raging from TL's point of view. Good bye. We will miss your "contributions."
FYI: I am Milkis. This is my smurf account -- I'm not posting under the account atm for obvious reasons. Thanks for insulting all the work I have ever done for the community, especially by implying they weren't contributions at all. It's just absolutely brilliant to know you're appreciated around here, right?
Great to know people like you exist. Well, have fun with your "grand" vision of e-Sports. Enjoy your god damn konglish.
Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from Fomos. And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners. Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
Profits? TL making profits without permission? I'm sorry but I fail to catch those words properly. The TL translators and writers on this site are all doing it for free. They aren't employees nor actual workers being paid when they are VOLUNTARY (for free) providing the English translations MANY OTHERS would want.
And obviously these people do have a life doing other things or that they could have spend countless hours translating of doing something more productive. Unless you mean TL site in general but you just targeted toward the TL translators in general so your complaint is now all moot.
So please think carefully and consider what exactly is the line here on the next post of the contributions and work that's being done between either parties and exactly WHO benefits who and where it all goes to.
Dude, read.
Profits, in his argument, were the views (attracting more viewers to this website) and ads.
People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
Sure, the volunteers do not get anything, but in the end, his argument is, the amount of views on the translations will steal profits from fomos, given that teamliquid is making money off the ads while fomos loses views, thus getting less view from ads and generating less money.
Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from FOMOS.
My point was not to justify our stance. I have already told you that we understand Fomos has absolute right over their work, which is why... this thread even exists to begin with.
Maybe if you were actually intelligent as you have claimed you were you would realize that these issues are separate from whether or not Fomos is "right" on the matter or not, and it's just outrage over other issues closer to "Fomos, you suck for doing this", "lol fomos hypocrites". No one here is saying Fomos is wrong for doing this to begin with. We're just saying Fomos is a little bitch for doing this all the while keeping up with their share of bullshit.
And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners.
For someone who claims to be so intelligent i think you might need to retake reading comprehension or something because that has nothing to do with anything at all
Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
Why else would you put contribution in quotations? Since you claim the intelligence high ground all over, I'm sure you're familiar with such use of quotations. But of course, you go straight into denial mode and make me out to be the sensitive one, when I'm just giving you a matter of fact interpretation of your previous post.
Your list of problems are all moot. If Fomos is stealing articles from other sources. It is their problems. One wrong doesn't justify another. Your few links can't compare to the amount of content on the Broodwar's section that's taken from FOMOS.
My point was not to justify our stance. I have already told you that we understand Fomos has absolute right over their work, which is why... this thread even exists to begin with.
Maybe if you were actually intelligent as you have claimed you were you would realize that these issues are separate from whether or not Fomos is "right" on the matter or not, and it's just outrage over other issues closer to "Fomos, you suck for doing this", "lol fomos hypocrites". No one here is saying Fomos is wrong for doing this to begin with. We're just saying Fomos is a little bitch for doing this all the while keeping up with their share of bullshit.
And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners.
For someone who claims to be so intelligent i think you might need to retake reading comprehension or something because that has nothing to do with anything at all
Also, please point out where I insulted all the work you have ever done? Or where I disregarded all contributions to the foreign scene? Goddamn you're so sensitive, I'm scared that you will legit begin to cry and send me deaththreats if i make another post.
Why else would you put contribution in quotations? Since you claim the intelligence high ground all over, I'm sure you're familiar with such use of quotations. But of course, you go straight into denial mode and make me out to be the sensitive one, when I'm just giving you a matter of fact interpretation of your previous post.
If you're going to keep this up, take it to PMs. IMO you guys are both being overly dramatic on the issue.
What is their motivation: I see three possibilites:
a) they severely overestimate the popularity of BW outside of Korea and the possible hits for their site. I doubt at the current state that there would be any kind of revenue gain for their site and even if it will certainly be not more than a handful of dollars a year. I doubt that they are stupid but it is possible.
b) they want to harm TL and/or BW. I do not believe that.
c) they want to compete with TL: if that is the case it would be positive. Atm TL has a monopoly on BW outside of Korea and a strong competitor could only be a good thing just because monopolys usually have big disadvantages. I have not seen any disadvantage of TL so far (this site is REALLY good) but a second website would not harm. And even though the odds are massively against Fomos why not at least give them a chance.
So my opinion after I was done with my nerd rage that this is positive news. They wouldn't do this if they didn't care about BW.
So my opinion is: Visit Fomos. Contribute there. Translators translate their interviews for their site. Readers read the interviews there after TL linked you there, that is good for both. Give their English section a chance to become #2 behind TL and if they fail you still have TL. And a bit of competition has never harmed anyone, TL is still so far ahead but it is lonely on the top. Their English section will most likely fail but that is not the point. They want to try to create something and we as the community should give them a chance.
On May 29 2011 13:22 FakePlasticLove wrote: It is not the same at all. People actually come to Teamliquid to check out the interviews and pictures from Fomos. Teamliquid is generating profits through viewers and ads because of these articles taken without permission from Fomos. How hard is that to understand?
That's right. The reason I registered an account and visit teamliquid everyday is to view fomos content, nothing else.
On May 29 2011 14:26 Fenrax wrote: What is their motivation: I see three possibilites:
a) they severely overestimate the popularity of BW outside of Korea and the possible hits for their site. I doubt at the current state that there would be any kind of revenue gain for their site and even if it will certainly be not more than a handful of dollars a year. I doubt that they are stupid but it is possible.
b) they want to harm TL and/or BW. I do not believe that.
c) they want to compete with TL: if that is the case it would be positive. Atm TL has a monopoly on BW outside of Korea and a strong competitor could only be a good thing just because monopolys usually have big disadvantages. I have not seen any disadvantage of TL so far (this site is REALLY good) but a second website would not harm. And even though the odds are massively against Fomos why not at least give them a chance.
So my opinion after I was done with my nerd rage that this is positive news. They wouldn't do this if they didn't care about BW.
So my opinion is: Visit Fomos. Contribute there. Translators translate their interviews for their site. Readers read the interviews there after TL linked you there. Give their English section a chance to become #2 after TL and if they fail you still have TL. And a bit of competition has never harmed anyone, TL is still so far ahead but it is lonely on the top.
2 is out of question. No one wants to do that.
In fact, Fomos stopped covering SC2 after few months (or even weeks). They focus on BW, just like DES.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
On May 29 2011 14:26 Fenrax wrote: What is their motivation: I see three possibilites:
a) they severely overestimate the popularity of BW outside of Korea and the possible hits for their site. I doubt at the current state that there would be any kind of revenue gain for their site and even if it will certainly be not more than a handful of dollars a year. I doubt that they are stupid but it is possible.
b) they want to harm TL and/or BW. I do not believe that.
c) they want to compete with TL: if that is the case it would be positive. Atm TL has a monopoly on BW outside of Korea and a strong competitor could only be a good thing just because monopolys usually have big disadvantages. I have not seen any disadvantage of TL so far (this site is REALLY good) but a second website would not harm. And even though the odds are massively against Fomos why not at least give them a chance.
So my opinion after I was done with my nerd rage that this is positive news. They wouldn't do this if they didn't care about BW.
So my opinion is: Visit Fomos. Contribute there. Translators translate their interviews for their site. Readers read the interviews there after TL linked you there. Give their English section a chance to become #2 after TL and if they fail you still have TL. And a bit of competition has never harmed anyone, TL is still so far ahead but it is lonely on the top.
2 is out of question. No one wants to do that.
In fact, Fomos stopped covering SC2 after few months (or even weeks). They focus on BW, just like DES.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
3 would be your best bet.
The way you say it it would be 2 actually. Backfiring at TL means wanting to harm TL (and BW with that).
In fact, Fomos stopped covering SC2 after few months (or even weeks). They focus on BW, just like DES.
Cause Shim Hyun quit fomos and went to Thisisgame. There was a lot of drama over this, btw.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
That's not how it went along but I can't really say anything else about the situation so let's leave it at that.
On May 29 2011 14:26 Fenrax wrote: What is their motivation: I see three possibilites:
a) they severely overestimate the popularity of BW outside of Korea and the possible hits for their site. I doubt at the current state that there would be any kind of revenue gain for their site and even if it will certainly be not more than a handful of dollars a year. I doubt that they are stupid but it is possible.
b) they want to harm TL and/or BW. I do not believe that.
c) they want to compete with TL: if that is the case it would be positive. Atm TL has a monopoly on BW outside of Korea and a strong competitor could only be a good thing just because monopolys usually have big disadvantages. I have not seen any disadvantage of TL so far (this site is REALLY good) but a second website would not harm. And even though the odds are massively against Fomos why not at least give them a chance.
So my opinion after I was done with my nerd rage that this is positive news. They wouldn't do this if they didn't care about BW.
So my opinion is: Visit Fomos. Contribute there. Translators translate their interviews for their site. Readers read the interviews there after TL linked you there. Give their English section a chance to become #2 after TL and if they fail you still have TL. And a bit of competition has never harmed anyone, TL is still so far ahead but it is lonely on the top.
2 is out of question. No one wants to do that.
In fact, Fomos stopped covering SC2 after few months (or even weeks). They focus on BW, just like DES.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
3 would be your best bet.
The way you say it it would be 2 actually. Backfiring at TL means wanting to harm TL (and BW with that).
I was thinking more about hurting BW than hurting TL. In that sense, you're right. However, SDM doesn't really want to hurt BW scene overall (or at least that was the impression when I volunteered). He just wanted to create fomos global page that would become part of 'something bigger.' Too bad that it never happened (global page is pretty much dead; lots of posts but no views), and now this shit happened.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
That's not how it went along but I can't really say anything else about the situation so let's leave it at that.
Cause Shim Hyun quit fomos and went to Thisisgame. There was a lot of drama over this, btw.
On May 29 2011 14:26 Fenrax wrote: What is their motivation: I see three possibilites:
a) they severely overestimate the popularity of BW outside of Korea and the possible hits for their site. I doubt at the current state that there would be any kind of revenue gain for their site and even if it will certainly be not more than a handful of dollars a year. I doubt that they are stupid but it is possible.
b) they want to harm TL and/or BW. I do not believe that.
c) they want to compete with TL: if that is the case it would be positive. Atm TL has a monopoly on BW outside of Korea and a strong competitor could only be a good thing just because monopolys usually have big disadvantages. I have not seen any disadvantage of TL so far (this site is REALLY good) but a second website would not harm. And even though the odds are massively against Fomos why not at least give them a chance.
So my opinion after I was done with my nerd rage that this is positive news. They wouldn't do this if they didn't care about BW.
So my opinion is: Visit Fomos. Contribute there. Translators translate their interviews for their site. Readers read the interviews there after TL linked you there. Give their English section a chance to become #2 after TL and if they fail you still have TL. And a bit of competition has never harmed anyone, TL is still so far ahead but it is lonely on the top.
2 is out of question. No one wants to do that.
In fact, Fomos stopped covering SC2 after few months (or even weeks). They focus on BW, just like DES.
Also, I don't know who actually brought up the question from Fomos's side, but everything was fine before SDM started the global page. Given that, we called him out for stealing our article, and he backfires at us.
3 would be your best bet.
The way you say it it would be 2 actually. Backfiring at TL means wanting to harm TL (and BW with that).
I was thinking more about hurting BW than hurting TL. In that sense, you're right. However, SDM doesn't really want to hurt BW scene overall (or at least that was the impression when I volunteered). He just wanted to create fomos global page that would become part of 'something bigger.' Too bad that it never happened (global page is pretty much dead; lots of posts but no views), and now this shit happened.
So it is either revenge or a last attempt to attract foreign viewers for Fomos Global. IMO as long as we don't know for sure what it is we should just try and assume the better alternative and give Fomos Global a chance. For example I was at Fomos Global for the first time this morning because of this.
Bleh, this absolutely sucks. I really hope DES has as much coverage as Fomos. I really want to like SDM because of his GOMTV casting with Tasteless and coaching before, but he had a hand in this nonsense...
The only thing that kinda makes sense is that they think TL's foreign community is somehow a threat to their global section. But honestly, the faster they realize the foreign scene is dead with a few of us diehards left the faster they should realize this is nothing but crappiness all around. Fomos will never capture tens of thousands of foreign fans when the rest of the world 'gets' BW. The ones left will continue to 'get' BW, but SC2 is where it's at for foreigners. And I for one am not going to start frequenting Fomos for interviews. Especially after this move by Fomos.
I just can't believe they have the gall to pull this on TL while they keep copy/pasted translations on their own site without giving credit. TL's own translations are not even a similar situation. Our volunteers are actually translating, which is value adding. It's not a simple copy/paste.
Fomos: staff articles, copy/paste, no credit/links TL: volunteer forum members, original translation, credit and links
The two scenarios are not even similar and I don't understand the Fomos apologists.
From a legal perspective, TL can be held liable for contributory copyright infringement for allowing posting of copyrighted articles on the site. People don't often realize this, but TL is a business (a corporation!) and it derives revenue from people clicking on the ads and visiting the website. I could go into the tests for vicarious and contributory copyright infringement, but TL under these facts would be opening itself to liability by allowing the posts.
@ Ambasia you kind of LOL at this "And the quality of translation doesn't matter. Whether you stick it in to google translate or you take time to translate it wonderfully, you're still taking making profits off of it without permission from the owners."
I am not sure if you think it is incorrect or merely irrelevant, from a relevancy standpoint that makes more sense. However, under copyright law, translations of this type are generally considered unauthorized derivative works, which opens oneself up a party to liability for copyright infringment, because the translation embodies a significant amount of protected expression from the underlying work.
1. You can always copypaste superdanielman's "Translation". That isn't copyright infrigement, according to the OP.
2. To anyone worrying about NaDa's body: I made a back up with as good as all the pictures in it, will sort the pictures out and post it in about a week.
3. Can teamliquid please call SDM's bluff? Because seriously, the Fomos Global, or "SDM's playground" is one of the worst sites I have ever seen. You make a site for global people, and don't localize it? Way to go.
And of course, TL is a lazy site. Very lazy. So if fomos doesn't give the exact post links, for every post image, TL can't remove it. Right? We all have a real life.
How much ad money even still exists to be milked from the Brood War English-speaking fanbase? I hate to admit it but there aren't that many of us left.
On May 29 2011 16:31 Hinanawi wrote: How much ad money even still exists to be milked from the Brood War English-speaking fanbase? I hate to admit it but there aren't that many of us left.
They don't even really have ads for non-Koreans on their site.
LOL what a stupid move from fomos, do they really think that now they're gonna get millions of views on their translated articles from the 'millions' of bw fans all around the world?
On May 29 2011 18:41 evilfatsh1t wrote: Who exactly is superdanielman? Why does everyone on tl rage about how dumb he is
Mainly people blame him for giving us the progamer IdrA. Actually, he briefly joined GOMTV in casting their BW games in English with Tasteless. Those English games probably pulled a lot of foreign fans into BW, though the numbers wouldn't compare with the SC2 explosion. People have generally found his projects agreeable, like casting and after he left casting, a PC cafe he opened. Not so with his handling of this fomos situation.
fomos can suck cock, who the fuck would go to their site for the shitty english 'content', especially after pulling this on TL.
they're not even losing any money on it, they just don't want anybody else to make a buck, like TL is making millions on fomos articles for the handful of people who actually still follow bw in the west.
Btw for everyone who does not know, this is a link to all the fomos news in english. http://www.fomos.kr/board/board_article/eng_all.php And I have to say, most of them are very short .. more like a celebrity info page.
Well although I will miss the fast BW interviews after PL - if anyone ever thinks that I will get my MSL/PL news/coverage somewhere else than TLh, he has absolutely gone CrAzZyY.
Oh and another round of big thanks to the translators of course, you are awesome as always and I hope this is going to end well. And the fomos sites take literally 30 seconds to load .. man, what a bummer.
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. The term fair use originated in the United States. A similar principle, fair dealing, exists in some other common law jurisdictions. Civil law jurisdictions have other limitations and exceptions to copyright
I'd say that it would fall under commentary and news... Maybe not the photos, but one of the main reasons people can post clips of movies, etc on YouTube (if there Is anything similar in Korea?). I know many circumvent copyright laws like that in America... Unfortunately the only lawyers I know are American ones.
On May 29 2011 18:41 evilfatsh1t wrote: Who exactly is superdanielman? Why does everyone on tl rage about how dumb he is
Who called SDM dumb? I don't recall anyone saying that. Sounds like you are taking a jab at someone you don't even know.
All I said is the TL translators do a better job with the translations and in a more timely manner than say Fomos. Either way, there is no partnership between the two which stinks. Hopefully the Brood War section doesn't become more bare.
Who do they think they are; Apple? BW isn't exactly gaining popularity, so why would they do this when there is no potential money gain/loss involved? They've played too much with the Boomers in New Vegas.
It saddens me fomos has taken this stance, but I don't criticize them for doing so. It is their responsibility as a business to increase profits besides protecting their intellectual property. Translating a full interview, in which fomos used their resources to make, does not benefit them in any way since people will have no reason to access their website because the full content is already available elsewhere. Their alliance with a Chinese company to provide English content can be understood as the primary reason TL was contacted until now to cease the practice.
But from what I understand TL can still make post or news about new articles or interviews from FOMOS or the new Chinese company, as any news website you can take the primary idea and link the source, this is not a copyright infringement since you are stating the source.
On May 29 2011 18:41 evilfatsh1t wrote: Who exactly is superdanielman? Why does everyone on tl rage about how dumb he is
Who called SDM dumb? I don't recall anyone saying that. Sounds like you are taking a jab at someone you don't even know.
In case you don't realise, every reference to Fomos making a dumb decision or being 'fucking dumb' in this thread (i.e. every three or four posts) is in effect an attack on SDM.
Really guys, you have to cut the rage for a while. For example:
On May 29 2011 19:28 anatem wrote: fomos can suck cock, who the fuck would go to their site for the shitty english 'content', especially after pulling this on TL.
On May 30 2011 00:04 btxmonty wrote: It saddens me fomos has taken this stance, but I don't criticize them for doing so. It is their responsibility as a business to increase profits besides protecting their intellectual property. Translating a full interview, in which fomos used their resources to make, does not benefit them in any way since people will have no reason to access their website because the full content is already available elsewhere. Their alliance with a Chinese company to provide English content can be understood as the primary reason TL was contacted until now to cease the practice.
Your "especially after pulling this on TL" means nothing. Many times people want to react by a boycott or something but here is the problem. You can't boycott something that you never bought or intended to buy anyway.
They won't charge you money to go there and not even force you to register. They just want you to visit their site if you want to read their interviews. That is absolutely reasonable and understandable from their perspective. It would in fact be extremely stupid by them to not do it this way if they plan to expand their English content. I will just go to Fomos for their interviews from now on because they did the job and thus they deserve the loan. Common sense.
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. The term fair use originated in the United States. A similar principle, fair dealing, exists in some other common law jurisdictions. Civil law jurisdictions have other limitations and exceptions to copyright
I'd say that it would fall under commentary and news... Maybe not the photos, but one of the main reasons people can post clips of movies, etc on YouTube (if there Is anything similar in Korea?). I know many circumvent copyright laws like that in America... Unfortunately the only lawyers I know are American ones.
So clarifying once again, wouldn't the translations, interviews, and "news" threads that our TL translators do count as "fair use"? Remember, teamliquid.net IS A "NEWS" organization, even said it on top "Starcraft Progaming NEWS".
Even if we have ADs and TL.net generate some money via ADs, isn't that also what countless legit news organizations and sites do and have anyway? Like FOX News, NBC, TMZ, CNN, BBC, ABC, all have ads somewhere on the page of the news and I'm pretty sure NOT all of them have pictures and stories that were completely linked source of the original source because of the "Fair Use" doctrine.
So what is the difference between those sites and this site? There really isn't a difference and I'm sure they pull international news as well, especially like CNN and BBC with sources being from others.
And because the translations of interviews/news are in English (WHICH THEY DON'T ORIGINALLY HAVE IN THEIR SITE on Fomos) and not in Korean (the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE), wouldn't that be an original or deviated work from our TL translators?
And lastly, I believe the US law succeed all other international laws as someone mentioned earlier when the two parties are in US and different country (Korea) and the conflict is located in US since TL is located in US and it's Fomos -> TL meaning Korea to US (unlike Blizzard to Kespa which is US to Korea). So Korean law may be invalid and we can go under the US law instead which many media corporations take advantage of, because TL is a media organization.
Quickie, remember the time when TL was non-corporate? Well ever since they broke away from that, I can see why Fomos would be trying to gun them down. We're talking about pennies and dimes, meh.
On May 30 2011 02:05 StarStruck wrote: Quickie, remember the time when TL was non-corporate? Well ever since they broke away from that, I can see why Fomos would be trying to gun them down. We're talking about pennies and dimes, meh.
Even so, the other media organizations (in US) have done something similar I'm sure and they sure are corporate, generating revenue from ADs. What's to say that TL is not like them?
If we are talking about pennies and dimes, Fomos should understand that unlike Chinese sites where Korean law may be superior or something, having a conflict with an American (US) news/media organization is different because it'll fall under US law then. And as I heard it, US law beats any other laws if the conflict is between US and some other country and the conflict situation is in US (and it is seeing how Fomos is waging a conflict to TL, a US origin).
quite a shame that fomos now went there too... well, at least you can still relate the general story. and hey, fomos comes now with its own english translation at least
"Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
On May 30 2011 02:25 zeru wrote: So this goes only for TL? So translators from here can open up a bloggish site of some sort and post translations of interviews there?
In this case, yes if they have permission from fomos (highly unlikely). Their stuff might get taken down if it is discovered.
Rules state: No fomos translation on TL, no pictures/etc from fomos on TL.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do during interviews can definitely count as "news reporting" or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also good to go under the "Fair Use" doctrine under the US Law.
And news sites or news articles/reporting definitely do have commentary and criticism as well. (i.e. Movie Reviews)
To everyone saying "under US law, TL can do this and this and this" Yes, they probably could, but why would TL want to get in a potential lawsuit with Fomos which would turn out ugly. They're requesting we stop out of respect for Fomos
On May 30 2011 02:36 awu25 wrote: To everyone saying "under US law, TL can do this and this and this" Yes, they probably could, but why would TL want to get in a potential lawsuit with Fomos which would turn out ugly. They're requesting we stop out of respect for Fomos
I'm simply addressing and laying out possibilities and discussions for everyone to think and comment on. I'm not telling TL to do this or that, simply generating some words of mouth and expression for others to view and discuss.
As for respect for Fomos, my personal opinion (as well as others I've seen back earlier in the threads) is that we have done in respect with translation citing the original source of our "deviated/original work" (personal TL English translations) to its origin (Fomos website link of article). But when Fomos did that, they did not link our "original/deviated" work back to its origin (TL thread). So in that regards, they cut off respect first. That's my 2 cents there.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
On May 30 2011 02:36 awu25 wrote: To everyone saying "under US law, TL can do this and this and this" Yes, they probably could, but why would TL want to get in a potential lawsuit with Fomos which would turn out ugly. They're requesting we stop out of respect for Fomos
I'm simply addressing and laying out possibilities and discussions for everyone to think and comment on. I'm not telling TL to do this or that, simply generating some words of mouth and expression for others to view and discuss.
As for respect for Fomos, my personal opinion (as well as others I've seen back earlier in the threads) is that we have done in respect with translation citing the original source of our "deviated/original work" (personal TL English translations) to its origin (Fomos website link of article). But when Fomos did that, they did not link our "original/deviated" work back to its origin (TL thread). So in that regards, they cut off respect first. That's my 2 cents there.
TL Translators: Did they just steal our work? Fuck you SDM SDM: Fuck you, you've been stealing fomos's works for centuries, and I'm just taking back what is rightfully mine/fomos's. TL Translators: Wait what?
OFC, this is all that I know about the situation. Mods probably know the actual/behind story, but even then they shouldn't discuss it.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Also as for "translations", like I said, I believe it's an deviated or original work of TL translators. Because think about this, there are so many different translations of the Bible in this world. Does that mean every translation committed a crime? They're not even all the exact same words at times. And in a sense, that's where the idea of "Fair Use" takes place.
I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Remember: This always depends on the country they take the legal action in. In this case, it might be where TL server is located (which is not US). But I don't see any legal action happening over this "small" case.
On May 30 2011 02:48 Artimo wrote: I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Remember: This always depends on the country they take the legal action in. In this case, it might be where TL server is located (which is not US). But I don't see any legal action happening over this "small" case.
On May 30 2011 02:48 Artimo wrote: I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
What do you mean by 'literature work' in school?
I definitely checked just now and TL server is in US including its IP.
As for legal action, even if it's Korea to US, it's by the defendant area than the plaintiff no? Blizzard vs OGN/MBC/Kespa certainly took place in Korea but here, it's Fomos to TL (Korea -> US)
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Remember: This always depends on the country they take the legal action in. In this case, it might be where TL server is located (which is not US). But I don't see any legal action happening over this "small" case.
On May 30 2011 02:48 Artimo wrote: I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
What do you mean by 'literature work' in school?
I definitely checked just now and TL server is in US including its IP.
As for legal action, even if it's Korea to US, it's by the defendant area than the plaintiff no? Blizzard vs OGN/MBC/Kespa certainly took place in Korea but here, it's Fomos to TL (Korea -> US)
I'm too stupid when it comes to lawsuit shit, consult your local lawyers. (You're probably right though)
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Remember: This always depends on the country they take the legal action in. In this case, it might be where TL server is located (which is not US). But I don't see any legal action happening over this "small" case.
On May 30 2011 02:48 Artimo wrote: I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
What do you mean by 'literature work' in school?
I definitely checked just now and TL server is in US including its IP.
As for legal action, even if it's Korea to US, it's by the defendant area than the plaintiff no? Blizzard vs OGN/MBC/Kespa certainly took place in Korea but here, it's Fomos to TL (Korea -> US)
I'm too stupid when it comes to lawsuit shit, consult your local lawyers. (You're probably right though)
But the whole difference between a typical case between two parties and this particular gray area case is this conflict all takes place on the internet. Internet is still a very vague gray area, especially when it comes down to law cases and enforcing the law. Blizzard vs Kespa took place directly person to person because the main conflict was in TV and other things. But Internet has such a huge gray area that maybe what we're saying can be all irrelevant because enforcement is harder for Internet. But that's not also saying either are absolutely correct, just saying there may be LOOPHOLES here because the conflict occurs on the Internet.
Why can't we just work with DES? Their interviews are way better.
Very frustrating that Fomos screwed up first, then are claiming to protect a half-assed english implementation - half the website is in korean, the layout is very poor, the translations are awful. But move on folks.
TL.net should like many have said, strike a deal with DES. That we can provide english translations for articles and etc. Then we can look back at Fomos and laugh in their faces!
On May 30 2011 03:14 Xiphos wrote: TL.net should like many have said, strike a deal with DES. That we can provide english translations for articles and etc. Then we can look back at Fomos and laugh in their faces!
Or we should have our own writing/reporting staff and have our own original interviews and articles, exclusively from TL.net. Then we can truly call our site, Starcraft Progaming News. :D
And of course, laugh at Fomos afterwards while we're at it!
On May 30 2011 03:14 Xiphos wrote: TL.net should like many have said, strike a deal with DES. That we can provide english translations for articles and etc. Then we can look back at Fomos and laugh in their faces!
Or we should have our own writing/reporting staff and have our own original interviews and articles, exclusively from TL.net. Then we can truly call our site, Starcraft Progaming News. :D
Great idea. Let's pay someone to go to Korea and let them stay there for interviews/other stuff only.
On May 30 2011 03:14 Xiphos wrote: TL.net should like many have said, strike a deal with DES. That we can provide english translations for articles and etc. Then we can look back at Fomos and laugh in their faces!
Or we should have our own writing/reporting staff and have our own original interviews and articles, exclusively from TL.net. Then we can truly call our site, Starcraft Progaming News. :D
Great idea. Let's pay someone to go to Korea and let them stay there for interviews/other stuff only.
I find this rather sad. Although understandable, not a great way of promoting BW which should come first IMO. Both sides could flourish, instead we get a large number of upset people, that won't go over anyway.
One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
On May 30 2011 05:00 jakechen wrote: One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
Interviews are done separately. They don't take televised interviews and write down what people said on television. Though the questions are similar, they do this in the press room backstage, or in the resting area behind the stadium. They conduct the interviews themselves.
AFAIK (Milkis fix me if I'm wrong here) DES and FOMOS are in the same room as the interviews are going on. They both write down the questions from other people, as well as themselves, and the answer from the player. DES does write better, more accurate interviews than FOMOS (as fomos tends to edit some things), but the interviews contain almost same if not identical content on both websites.
On May 30 2011 05:00 jakechen wrote: One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
Interviews are done separately. They don't take televised interviews and write down what people said on television. Though the questions are similar, they do this in the press room backstage, or in the resting area behind the stadium. They conduct the interviews themselves.
AFAIK (Milkis fix me if I'm wrong here) DES and FOMOS are in the same room as the interviews are going on. They both write down the questions from other people, as well as themselves, and the answer from the player. DES does write better, more accurate interviews than FOMOS (as fomos tends to edit some things), but the interviews contain almost same if not identical content on both websites.
Thanks very much for clarifying, that was helpful to understand. So, the interviews really belong to fomos, or are perhaps jointly owned by DES and fomos (implying, I would think, that if fomos doesn't want TL using it, they wouldn't want DES letting TL use it either; and in fact, they may be on the same page with DES to begin with). I guess the follow-up question is, can translators still translate stuff from the TV broadcast, by recording the stream? I figure they haven't been doing that as much up till now because it was more convenient to get the text, but are there any legal reasons not to transcribe the TV interviews? If not, then supposing some of the translators would be up for it (I'm betting it's more work this way), then maybe this would be a good solution...?
On May 30 2011 05:00 jakechen wrote: One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
Interviews are done separately. They don't take televised interviews and write down what people said on television. Though the questions are similar, they do this in the press room backstage, or in the resting area behind the stadium. They conduct the interviews themselves.
AFAIK (Milkis fix me if I'm wrong here) DES and FOMOS are in the same room as the interviews are going on. They both write down the questions from other people, as well as themselves, and the answer from the player. DES does write better, more accurate interviews than FOMOS (as fomos tends to edit some things), but the interviews contain almost same if not identical content on both websites.
Thanks very much for clarifying, that was helpful to understand. So, the interviews really belong to fomos, or are perhaps jointly owned by DES and fomos (implying, I would think, that if fomos doesn't want TL using it, they wouldn't want DES letting TL use it either; and in fact, they may be on the same page with DES to begin with). I guess the follow-up question is, can translators still translate stuff from the TV broadcast, by recording the stream? I figure they haven't been doing that as much up till now because it was more convenient to get the text, but are there any legal reasons not to transcribe the TV interviews? If not, then supposing some of the translators would be up for it (I'm betting it's more work this way), then maybe this would be a good solution...?
I don't think there's any problem with translating DES interviews though
On May 30 2011 05:00 jakechen wrote: One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
Interviews are done separately. They don't take televised interviews and write down what people said on television. Though the questions are similar, they do this in the press room backstage, or in the resting area behind the stadium. They conduct the interviews themselves.
AFAIK (Milkis fix me if I'm wrong here) DES and FOMOS are in the same room as the interviews are going on. They both write down the questions from other people, as well as themselves, and the answer from the player. DES does write better, more accurate interviews than FOMOS (as fomos tends to edit some things), but the interviews contain almost same if not identical content on both websites.
Thanks very much for clarifying, that was helpful to understand. So, the interviews really belong to fomos, or are perhaps jointly owned by DES and fomos (implying, I would think, that if fomos doesn't want TL using it, they wouldn't want DES letting TL use it either; and in fact, they may be on the same page with DES to begin with). I guess the follow-up question is, can translators still translate stuff from the TV broadcast, by recording the stream? I figure they haven't been doing that as much up till now because it was more convenient to get the text, but are there any legal reasons not to transcribe the TV interviews? If not, then supposing some of the translators would be up for it (I'm betting it's more work this way), then maybe this would be a good solution...?
I don't think there's any problem with translating DES interviews though
Well... that's great if true, but I'm skeptical. I mean... I don't know what fomos could hope to gain from this move if DES has "almost same if not identical content" and is not of the same mind. I know people earlier in the thread have pointed DES out as a nicer alternative to fomos, but now I'm not so sure. Maybe DES is just letting fomos front this one for now, but is ready to say the same thing if it becomes necessary. Meaning, that interview translators might risk any hard work they put into a DES interview disappearing, the same way the fomos-based content is now gone. That's not necessarily a problem if you are just thinking in terms of getting up a quick interview for the fans, and are willing to use any source until you are told to stop. But I'm just imagining that if I ran TL, or if I were an translator, I'd ideally want reliable, continuous sources to build an archive/show my work. That's a lot of value to risk losing, in the long run...
On May 30 2011 05:00 jakechen wrote: One thing I don't understand about this mess is how FOMOS has exclusive rights to interviews? These interviews are broadcast on a television network-- right? In LR threads, I've even seen some very dedicated translators doing a rough translation live. So how does it follow that just because FOMOS copies down what the players said during these interviews, that text becomes their exclusive property? Do they pay the TV interviewers for rights to the interviews, or are they just using the content under the auspice of "reporting"? If so, why can't TL be "reporting" as well?
Also: with respect to pictures. I completely understand that if FOMOS pays a photographer to go onsite and get nice shots, those shots are theirs to use to attract viewers. But what about TV still-frame shots? Can TL still use stills from, say, the broadcast interview, to provide visuals in their translations?
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is similar to what Quickstriker said on pg 18, but with the added query of: are these interviews really the IP of fomos, rather than the TV network, to begin with? and if they are, why? Are these fomos reporters that we see interviewing players after games? If DES is different, does that mean they have a different interview with players, conducted by a different paid interviewer? I mean, who's interview/er is it anyways? Even though I agree that a legal battle is not likely to be what is at stake, but rather respect for fomos & their request, these details are interesting to me because I don't currently understand how fomos can even ask that these interviews be respected as theirs, when as far as I know, they are just reporting, and not creating creative content (not even providing interview commentary.) Am I just wrong? I hope someone will explain.
Interviews are done separately. They don't take televised interviews and write down what people said on television. Though the questions are similar, they do this in the press room backstage, or in the resting area behind the stadium. They conduct the interviews themselves.
AFAIK (Milkis fix me if I'm wrong here) DES and FOMOS are in the same room as the interviews are going on. They both write down the questions from other people, as well as themselves, and the answer from the player. DES does write better, more accurate interviews than FOMOS (as fomos tends to edit some things), but the interviews contain almost same if not identical content on both websites.
Thanks very much for clarifying, that was helpful to understand. So, the interviews really belong to fomos, or are perhaps jointly owned by DES and fomos (implying, I would think, that if fomos doesn't want TL using it, they wouldn't want DES letting TL use it either; and in fact, they may be on the same page with DES to begin with). I guess the follow-up question is, can translators still translate stuff from the TV broadcast, by recording the stream? I figure they haven't been doing that as much up till now because it was more convenient to get the text, but are there any legal reasons not to transcribe the TV interviews? If not, then supposing some of the translators would be up for it (I'm betting it's more work this way), then maybe this would be a good solution...?
Interviews (that are posted online) belong to the respective writers/company.
If there was someone from TL in the press room translating the interviews, it's ours.
On May 30 2011 02:27 supernovamaniac wrote: "Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship."
What's the exact definition of news reporting in this case?
Lol, just when I was about to reply I noticed the quick ninja edit. :D
Now in terms of news reporting, don't you think the comments or the side personal words of the OP (or the translator) count as news reporting? Sure we're using footage of another but it's not all 100% direct footage since we have even that 1% of news reporting.
And in my view, the side commentaries that OP make in beginning or end of translations or news threads and even those small "Translation Notes" that TL translators often do can definitely count as news reporting or at least "commentary" as well as "criticism" which is also ok in "fair use".
To the first bolded statement: Yes, but the news reporting would only count towards the side comments/personal words, not the translations itself. It's like saying I took Epik High's song and added 2 beats at the end that I have created, thus resulting in a new work.
In terms of criticism, they are posted along the translated content. But however, they only take the segment of the interviews/translations in order to do so. They don't copy the whole thing and then start making the comment; most people only take sections of the video/news/etc. to criticize. For example, Stephen Colbert didn't need the whole segment of the news footage from CNN to report that Bin Laden loved Nestle and Coke/Pepsi.
Sure, the commentaries and news reporting (side comments) fall under fair use. The translations, however, is in the gray area. And according to fomos, it does not fall under fair use.
In my opinion, this is all in the gray area like you said. Maybe because I never seen such unique case here nor heard of it in my mass media law or other law classes I've taken but, fair use can be taken in many different meanings and it's common practice for corporations and companies in US to take advantage of such loopholes they find or possibly something here until the fullest extent and be ok with it until the US Supreme Court or US law changes. What's to say TL can't follow what others do?
And in terms of fomos, I don't think they (Fomos) know US law nor know the whole idea of "fair use". Again I'm not 100% sure or right but seeing a Korean company In Korea know US law much more so than Korean law isn't common since they'll try to take it to only their nation's law. Except the conflict takes place in US now so US law endures.
Remember: This always depends on the country they take the legal action in. In this case, it might be where TL server is located (which is not US). But I don't see any legal action happening over this "small" case.
On May 30 2011 02:48 Artimo wrote: I thought it was fine as long as you cite the source of your work. i am not an expert on copyright laws and pagiarism but i honestly always thought you can do this as long as you say where the source is from etc.
this would mean that much of the literature work you do at school is subject to the same copyright laws which doesnt seem right.
What do you mean by 'literature work' in school?
I definitely checked just now and TL server is in US including its IP.
As for legal action, even if it's Korea to US, it's by the defendant area than the plaintiff no? Blizzard vs OGN/MBC/Kespa certainly took place in Korea but here, it's Fomos to TL (Korea -> US)
Actually, if it came down to a court case, then the plaintiff should be seeking to litigate in the jurisdiction where the defendant has its assets located. That way, the decision can actually be enforced by the court and the plaintiff can actually get a proper remedy from it.
So in this case, if Fomos wanted to sue TL for condoning breach of copyright, then it will most likely try to litigate in the US, unless there are significant advantages to litigate elsewhere. I don't even know if this is viable for them because I don't know if they have much of a presence in the US to actually attempt to enter legal proceedings. The choice of law (i.e. Korean law or US law) will depend on the US choice of law rules, which I don't know about.
I think TL is just trying to be civil here rather than being afraid of any possible litigation. Even if there was to be litigation, the amount that Fomos can sue for is probably very minimal.
On the whole, I just think Fomos are being completely jackasses in grinding out a fractious relationship between two e-sports community sites. It is completely ungracious of them, and they fail to respect the fact that TL is 99% of the reason why non-Koreans know of the existence of their existence in the first place. While most businesses would agree that free publicity is fantastic, Fomos actually tried to get some deal out of it from a Chinese website. I have no idea about the details of the deal, but I can't imagine it to be worth more than a few hundred or thousand dollars.
On May 30 2011 11:10 BisuDagger wrote: When I move to Korea, I'll start doing the interviews myself. Brood War just has to promise to stay around another 5 years.
I don't know, you might just be stuck trying to stalk Bisu around and not deliver any other interviews.
On May 30 2011 11:10 BisuDagger wrote: When I move to Korea, I'll start doing the interviews myself. Brood War just has to promise to stay around another 5 years.
I don't know, you might just be stuck trying to stalk Bisu around and not deliver any other interviews.
On May 30 2011 14:08 xarthaz wrote: Uhh you could just link the SDM translated content in the report/interview thread OPs...
True, but the point is Fomos is generally tardy with their interviews, the interviews are not always translated in full, and the quality is not the greatest. Better off finding a different source for interviews.
On May 30 2011 14:08 xarthaz wrote: Uhh you could just link the SDM translated content in the report/interview thread OPs...
True, but the point is Fomos is generally tardy with their interviews, the interviews are not always translated in full, and the quality is not the greatest. Better off finding a different source for interviews.
and to top it off, they dont come as timely as TL translators
Well, one solution would be to have an OP with a snippet of the interview and refer to the fomos global site, while tl have a discussion on the said thread. Only prob is the time itd take fomos to come up with the translations.
Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. The term fair use originated in the United States. A similar principle, fair dealing, exists in some other common law jurisdictions. Civil law jurisdictions have other limitations and exceptions to copyright
I'd say that it would fall under commentary and news... Maybe not the photos, but one of the main reasons people can post clips of movies, etc on YouTube (if there Is anything similar in Korea?). I know many circumvent copyright laws like that in America... Unfortunately the only lawyers I know are American ones.
So clarifying once again, wouldn't the translations, interviews, and "news" threads that our TL translators do count as "fair use"? Remember, teamliquid.net IS A "NEWS" organization, even said it on top "Starcraft Progaming NEWS".
Even if we have ADs and TL.net generate some money via ADs, isn't that also what countless legit news organizations and sites do and have anyway? Like FOX News, NBC, TMZ, CNN, BBC, ABC, all have ads somewhere on the page of the news and I'm pretty sure NOT all of them have pictures and stories that were completely linked source of the original source because of the "Fair Use" doctrine.
So what is the difference between those sites and this site? There really isn't a difference and I'm sure they pull international news as well, especially like CNN and BBC with sources being from others.
And because the translations of interviews/news are in English (WHICH THEY DON'T ORIGINALLY HAVE IN THEIR SITE on Fomos) and not in Korean (the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE), wouldn't that be an original or deviated work from our TL translators?
And lastly, I believe the US law succeed all other international laws as someone mentioned earlier when the two parties are in US and different country (Korea) and the conflict is located in US since TL is located in US and it's Fomos -> TL meaning Korea to US (unlike Blizzard to Kespa which is US to Korea). So Korean law may be invalid and we can go under the US law instead which many media corporations take advantage of, because TL is a media organization.
Just 2 cents.
Since i live with a journalist i can give some feedback here.
It is absolutely NOT okay for a news site to copy another news site's interview, and photos are even worse. If you pay attention when you read articles you will see that they often pull out quotes from a interview, without posting the questions. And then cite thier competitor as a source, something they really really hate having to do. For smaller magazies getting a big sports scoop first forcing the "big boys" to cite you as a source is considered a big win.
So, it would be okay for a TL member to post a thread about a specific answer from a fomos interview, quote the answer, and then comment on it and open up for discussion about that answer. That is fair use. Translating and reposting large sections does not fall under fair use.
Also fairly common in sports journalism is "rewrites", if one paper do not have time to attend a smaller match or cant get in touch with the coach for an after game interview for whatever reason they wait until a competitor posts thier after game article and then does "rewrite". Meaning they rewrite it in thier own words, and then pull a quote from the coach stolen from thier competitors interview.
Depending on how classy they are they might or might not cite the other news site as source, coaches pretty much give the exact same answers to each journalist after a game so in 99% of the time you can get away with not citing the source.
Also, press conferences are sometimes considered "free for all", if one journalist asks a really good question it would be silly if every journalist from the other magazines would have to ask the same question to be allowed to print it.
Lastly, on news-aggregating-sites on the internet (TL, Reddit, Digg, etc) it is fairly common to post a stub from an article or interview and then link to the source for the full read. Idea is the stub grabs the readers interest and then the original publisher gets more wievers. Both Reddit and the original publisher prosper from this, Reddit users can easily find articles regarding thier interests regardless of the publisher and can discuss it with other Reddit users. And the original publisher gets more wievers and credit for their work.
If Fomos are launching an english site i cant imagine them NOT asking other sites to stop posting full translations. Just like Japanese anime/manga publishers dont mind fansubs of thier work if it is not licensed by an english publisher, but as soon as it is licenced in english they start caring.
On May 30 2011 15:27 sovetskysoyuz wrote: Well, one solution would be to have an OP with a snippet of the interview and refer to the fomos global site, while tl have a discussion on the said thread. Only prob is the time itd take fomos to come up with the translations.
That thread would most likely turn out to be a flame thread about translation by comparing the kr to english version of the same article...
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
The above is the verbatim from Fomos. Now it gets interesting. So let me get this straight. 1. Fomos tolerated TL from using/translating its contents because it thought TL was non-profit 2. Fomos found out TL is a business, but still oks the use of its contents but wants an agreement and a contract 3. April 2010, Fomos talks to TL, states its requests: "10 articles per month, and a formal contract" (later on this) 4. TL does agree fully, saying it has no control over the contributors 5. Fomos demands its right to its contents, and have the agreement in black ad white, but TL seems vague on it(?) This initial discussion end in the meantime, while TL still uses Fomos contents. 6. 2011, Fomos starts global page. Renegotiates with TL, asking for rights to its original English articles as well. TL rejects this, but would be ok for Fomos to use the translated articles that came from Fomos in the first place. 7. Fomos does not understand this, citing that it has little use for the translation if ITS own contents given it already has translators and there are more to be hired 8. Fomos demands TL to stop infringing its contents. So here we are now.
So based on this, TL is the one who actually stone-walled? Is this correct? I wonder how the negotiations went, and why, if Fomos version is correct, TL refused use of its original content when Fomos is opening its contents to TL. Btw, does the "10-article" thing mean that Fomos wants TL to publish ONLY 10 of its articles in a month? I can see this as difficult for TL, since on a good month, as many as 30 interviews are made. Still, it is Fomos contents. All throughout their statement, Fomos seems to emphasize that they are they once actually reaching out and negotiating, which imo should be the other way around. If everyhthing Fomos said in there is true and is the whole picture of this story, I think TL was a little to hard and could have negotiated a mutually beneficial middle ground. Can TL please enlighten us on this one.
On May 30 2011 15:27 sovetskysoyuz wrote: Well, one solution would be to have an OP with a snippet of the interview and refer to the fomos global site, while tl have a discussion on the said thread. Only prob is the time itd take fomos to come up with the translations.
That thread would most likely turn out to be a flame thread about translation by comparing the kr to english version of the same article...
Well this is possible but difficult since only a part will be in the OP. Contributors can then translate the interview one-question per one post per one-contributor. LOL. Messy but possible. It is still infringement, but Fomos has to track the entire thread to make sure it does not happen. I just read fomos statement, interesting indeed.
On May 30 2011 15:27 sovetskysoyuz wrote: Well, one solution would be to have an OP with a snippet of the interview and refer to the fomos global site, while tl have a discussion on the said thread. Only prob is the time itd take fomos to come up with the translations.
That thread would most likely turn out to be a flame thread about translation by comparing the kr to english version of the same article...
Well this is possible but difficult since only a part will be in the OP. Contributors can then translate the interview one-question per one post per one-contributor. LOL. Messy but possible. It is still infringement, but Fomos has to track the entire thread to make sure it does not happen. I just read fomos statement, interesting indeed.
It is creative, but it should be TL who should make sure it does not happen, if it wants to avoid any legal problems. I really want to know what TL has to say on this.
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
This... So interesting. Is this what actually happened? If so, I can't blame or get mad at FOMOS.
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
The above is the verbatim from Fomos. Now it gets interesting. So let me get this straight. 1. Fomos tolerated TL from using/translating its contents because it thought TL was non-profit 2. Fomos found out TL is a business, but still oks the use of its contents but wants an agreement and a contract 3. April 2010, Fomos talks to TL, states its requests: "10 articles per month, and a formal contract" (later on this) 4. TL does agree fully, saying it has no control over the contributors 5. Fomos demands its right to its contents, and have the agreement in black ad white, but TL seems vague on it(?) This initial discussion end in the meantime, while TL still uses Fomos contents. 6. 2011, Fomos starts global page. Renegotiates with TL, asking for rights to its original English articles as well. TL rejects this, but would be ok for Fomos to use the translated articles that came from Fomos in the first place. 7. Fomos does not understand this, citing that it has little use for the translation if ITS own contents given it already has translators and there are more to be hired 8. Fomos demands TL to stop infringing its contents. So here we are now.
So based on this, TL is the one who actually stone-walled? Is this correct? I wonder how the negotiations went, and why, if Fomos version is correct, TL refused use of its original content when Fomos is opening its contents to TL. Btw, does the "10-article" thing mean that Fomos wants TL to publish ONLY 10 of its articles in a month? I can see this as difficult for TL, since on a good month, as many as 30 interviews are made. Still, it is Fomos contents. All throughout their statement, Fomos seems to emphasize that they are they once actually reaching out and negotiating, which imo should be the other way around. If everyhthing Fomos said in there is true and is the whole picture of this story, I think TL was a little to hard and could have negotiated a mutually beneficial middle ground. Can TL please enlighten us on this one.
I believe Fomos wanted to get 10 articles a month from TL. TL can't agree to that, because:
1. The people who do it are volunteers. They can make a billion articles this month, and then none after that. TL would be violating the contract. As there is no saying to how many articles will be made in a month, it's not possible to put that black on white (unless you like gambling and losing). 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
Let me do a pharaphrase of the Fomos statement based on the original here for the benefit of clarity and discussion: (LOL at that translation, Fomos could very well afford any college student with decent English yet it settles for this one). Anyway, here it is.
April 2010, FOMOS contacted TL on a possible partnership. FOMOS initially thought TL is a non-profit organization so it felt no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that TL has been using its contents without permission. It turns our that TL is for profit. Still, FOMOS is open to it if TL were willing to sign a contract regarding the use of FOMOS contents.
FOMOS requested a formal contract (as stated above) granting FOMOS a minimun of 10 articles per month.
TL initially agreed to this, but it later declined respectfully saying that their (TL) writers are volunteers and they have no control over what they write or post on the site. They however state that they have influence over their writers.
FOMOS is an incorporated company, and it is imperative to have all its deals be written on paper, in a proper contract. FOMOS does not understand how it can deal with anyone without knowing how much of its contents (pages) is used and translated. FOMOS is baffled by this initial decline by TL, but would still want a formal contract. Nearly a year has passed and TL still uses FOMOS contents without a contract. FOMOS is not happy about this.
2011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
This arrangement makes no sense to FOMOS since it already has translators and plans to expand on it in the future. FOMOS does not need the English translation of its articles from TL since FOMOS has the staff to do it (translate its articles to English). FOMOS reiterates its request to share its articles in exchange for the original English ones from TL.
TL refuses the deal. FOMOS notifies TL to stop using its contents.
If FOMOS gets only translations of its own works, then it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to have a partnership with TL. In fact, when TL translates what FOMOS plans to translate for its own site, it is a detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS simply wants TL to stop using FOMOS contents, as it has the right to do so.
FOMOS is an incorporated company with 10 staff member who work hard around the clock. FOMOS writers and photographers strongly express their wishes to others to stop using their original contents.
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
The above is the verbatim from Fomos. Now it gets interesting. So let me get this straight. 1. Fomos tolerated TL from using/translating its contents because it thought TL was non-profit 2. Fomos found out TL is a business, but still oks the use of its contents but wants an agreement and a contract 3. April 2010, Fomos talks to TL, states its requests: "10 articles per month, and a formal contract" (later on this) 4. TL does agree fully, saying it has no control over the contributors 5. Fomos demands its right to its contents, and have the agreement in black ad white, but TL seems vague on it(?) This initial discussion end in the meantime, while TL still uses Fomos contents. 6. 2011, Fomos starts global page. Renegotiates with TL, asking for rights to its original English articles as well. TL rejects this, but would be ok for Fomos to use the translated articles that came from Fomos in the first place. 7. Fomos does not understand this, citing that it has little use for the translation if ITS own contents given it already has translators and there are more to be hired 8. Fomos demands TL to stop infringing its contents. So here we are now.
So based on this, TL is the one who actually stone-walled? Is this correct? I wonder how the negotiations went, and why, if Fomos version is correct, TL refused use of its original content when Fomos is opening its contents to TL. Btw, does the "10-article" thing mean that Fomos wants TL to publish ONLY 10 of its articles in a month? I can see this as difficult for TL, since on a good month, as many as 30 interviews are made. Still, it is Fomos contents. All throughout their statement, Fomos seems to emphasize that they are they once actually reaching out and negotiating, which imo should be the other way around. If everyhthing Fomos said in there is true and is the whole picture of this story, I think TL was a little to hard and could have negotiated a mutually beneficial middle ground. Can TL please enlighten us on this one.
I believe Fomos wanted to get 10 articles a month from TL. TL can't agree to that, because:
1. The people who do it are volunteers. They can make a billion articles this month, and then none after that. TL would be violating the contract. As there is no saying to how many articles will be made in a month, it's not possible to put that black on white (unless you like gambling and losing). 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
EDIT: [\spoiler] instead of [\s]
The fact that the TL translators are volunteers doesn't change the most important fact that TL profits from Fomos' work without authorization. If TL wants to be a legitimate business instead of internet pirates then yeah Fomos' content won't be free.
Now I really love Super Daniel Man and he is gentleman and a scholar but Fomos needs to hire a real translator or strike a deal with TL. Fomos global would really benefit and TL would be doing the right thing. Make SDM do original content please.
But if Fomos wants a deal on black and white, maybe you could offer them the rights to any translated content from them + link back. Or a fee based on the average of articles over the year.
On May 30 2011 20:03 Fyodor wrote: The fact that the TL translators are volunteers doesn't change the most important fact that TL profits from Fomos' work without authorization. If TL wants to be a legitimate business instead of internet pirates then yeah Fomos' content won't be free.
I think it creates a new issue. TL profits from the volunteers work, which take the orginal untranslated articles from the Fomos. The line at the bottom of the page. "The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff." So the users = means US, not admins or moderators (since they are part of staff) could still translate the interviews.
when we translators were first contacted, we decided not to go with it since meeting a quota set by a company did not fit in our image of "voluntary community work". it would become a "we have to do this" instead of "we want to do this."
this is MY view from here, not TeamLiquid's staffs' or other translators' views anyway, this is fomos' loss, their translators suck and we don't need their recycled interviews that much anyway. there are other sources for that.
Based on FOMOS, it was TL who refused to negotiate on equal grounds. If I may ask, why did TL refuse the exchange of articles? It seems only fair, especially if you consider that it has been copying materials from FOMOS for years now. If what FOMOS says is true, it is indeed baffling that TL would only offer the translation of the article that is got from FOMOS, in exchange. It seems that there was a way to settle it, TL just did not want to open up.
If anyone from the TL negotiators could confirm and clarify this.
On May 30 2011 20:03 Fyodor wrote: The fact that the TL translators are volunteers doesn't change the most important fact that TL profits from Fomos' work without authorization. If TL wants to be a legitimate business instead of internet pirates then yeah Fomos' content won't be free.
I think it creates a new issue. TL profits from the volunteers work, which take the orginal untranslated articles from the Fomos. The line at the bottom of the page. "The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff." So the users = means US, not admins or moderators (since they are part of staff) could still translate the interviews.
No. This is a wrong interpretation of the law. Simply, FOMOS does not allow (anymore) use/copying of its contents by TL, no matter who does it or how it is obtained. Which means that any content from FOMOS that finds its way in TL is an infringement of FOMOS' copyright.
konadora is correct though, there are other sources. The pity here, especially for foreigners, is that FOMOS is a good source of SC content which can be used/translated here in TL. Also, another implication that konadora did not mention concerns all the past contents.
On May 30 2011 20:16 konadora wrote: when we translators were first contacted, we decided not to go with it since meeting a quota set by a company did not fit in our image of "voluntary community work". it would become a "we have to do this" instead of "we want to do this."
this is MY view from here, not TeamLiquid's staffs' or other translators' views anyway, this is fomos' loss, their translators suck and we don't need their recycled interviews that much anyway. there are other sources for that.
What he said makes sense. We all know TL isn't non-profit anymore; however, R1CH and Hot_Bid are the only full-time employees on staff. All the writers and translators volunteer their time to giving us content on their own accord. They aren't getting paid hence konadora's mindset.
The translators would have to be getting paid and anytime you put a quota on something it negates the desire of their volunteer work.
ah that makes Fomos' stance much more understandable considering they have tried multiple times to initiate partnetship with TL.
I understand with not wanting to force TL writers to fulfill a quota but this
011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
feels like a reasonable deal to me. That the BW write-ups / Final Edits would be available on FOMOS as well seems acceptable in exchange for FOMOS articles.
On May 30 2011 20:55 dtz wrote: ah that makes Fomos' stance much more understandable considering they have tried multiple times to initiate partnetship with TL.
I understand with not wanting to force TL writers to fulfill a quote but this
011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
feels like a reasonable deal to me. That the BW write-ups / Final Edits would be available on FOMOS as well seems acceptable in exchange for FOMOS articles.
Would love to hear TL's reasoning on this.
The problem is FOMOS demanded a quota of say 10 articles per month from TL. And since the writers aren't paid they wouldn't like such conditions. It was said above anyway.
I suppose that if FOMOS just demanded use of any english articles that wouldn't go in numbers above the articles used by TL in exchange, things could work out? I don't know the numbers of original and translated articles here on TL. But the point is not to put a quota on the writers, but rather to limit the number of translated articles depending on how many articles/translations FOMOS demands. That shouldn't affect the volunteers that much imo. It would just create a certain cap on the articles TL could translate. Something is better than nothing, IMO. It would be rather complicated though and since FOMOS wants a contract, not a deal...
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
The above is the verbatim from Fomos. Now it gets interesting. So let me get this straight. 1. Fomos tolerated TL from using/translating its contents because it thought TL was non-profit 2. Fomos found out TL is a business, but still oks the use of its contents but wants an agreement and a contract 3. April 2010, Fomos talks to TL, states its requests: "10 articles per month, and a formal contract" (later on this) 4. TL does agree fully, saying it has no control over the contributors 5. Fomos demands its right to its contents, and have the agreement in black ad white, but TL seems vague on it(?) This initial discussion end in the meantime, while TL still uses Fomos contents. 6. 2011, Fomos starts global page. Renegotiates with TL, asking for rights to its original English articles as well. TL rejects this, but would be ok for Fomos to use the translated articles that came from Fomos in the first place. 7. Fomos does not understand this, citing that it has little use for the translation if ITS own contents given it already has translators and there are more to be hired 8. Fomos demands TL to stop infringing its contents. So here we are now.
So based on this, TL is the one who actually stone-walled? Is this correct? I wonder how the negotiations went, and why, if Fomos version is correct, TL refused use of its original content when Fomos is opening its contents to TL. Btw, does the "10-article" thing mean that Fomos wants TL to publish ONLY 10 of its articles in a month? I can see this as difficult for TL, since on a good month, as many as 30 interviews are made. Still, it is Fomos contents. All throughout their statement, Fomos seems to emphasize that they are they once actually reaching out and negotiating, which imo should be the other way around. If everyhthing Fomos said in there is true and is the whole picture of this story, I think TL was a little to hard and could have negotiated a mutually beneficial middle ground. Can TL please enlighten us on this one.
I believe Fomos wanted to get 10 articles a month from TL. TL can't agree to that, because:
1. The people who do it are volunteers. They can make a billion articles this month, and then none after that. TL would be violating the contract. As there is no saying to how many articles will be made in a month, it's not possible to put that black on white (unless you like gambling and losing). 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
EDIT: [\spoiler] instead of [\s]
The fact that the TL translators are volunteers doesn't change the most important fact that TL profits from Fomos' work without authorization. If TL wants to be a legitimate business instead of internet pirates then yeah Fomos' content won't be free.
Now I really love Super Daniel Man and he is gentleman and a scholar but Fomos needs to hire a real translator or strike a deal with TL. Fomos global would really benefit and TL would be doing the right thing. Make SDM do original content please.
But if Fomos wants a deal on black and white, maybe you could offer them the rights to any translated content from them + link back. Or a fee based on the average of articles over the year.
I was adressing why TL wouldn't want to have a contract with fomos, not debating if the actions of TL were legal.
After reading the FOMOS official statement on TL, I don't feel FOMOS has done anything morally wrong. At the moment, I just hope FOMOS would get someone who can translate properly. The current FOMOS translations don't compare even with the worst translations on TL. Of course, if the global section isn't updated at a pace similar to TL's translations then I'm going to accuse them of making the global SC community worse .
I'm sure Wax will comment when he is around, until then sit tight on a TL response to that. It's only right that he comment seeing as he was representing TL during the whole process.
It makes sense from a business standpoint (although honestly, there's pretty much no business to be had in foreign BW anyway, but at least theoretically) what Fomos is doing, but TL's position was also perfectly reasonable - our translators do what they do because they want to bring greater enjoyment of Korean StarCraft to the foreigner community, and as we're all volunteers, it's simply wrong for TL to enforce some sort of quota.
Still, I really wish SDM had a better grasp of what the foreign BW fanbase looks like right now - we're all here on TL for many reasons - its history, ease of accessibility, minimal ads, fast loading times, the friends we've made... none of this is currently available on their Fomos global site, and poor translations aside, it would be hard to attract much positive attention to the global part of the Fomos site anyway, and as such I wish he would have just left us alone. I was personally fine with him copy-pasting our interviews on Fomos, as I believed they were the best quality English interviews done. Of course, professional courtesy mandates credit, but that's a relatively minor issue in the grand scheme of things. Hopefully we can work something out, but if not, I can foresee myself posting summaries of interviews; basically not in interview format, but with all the crucial information.
On May 30 2011 19:36 GG.NoRe wrote: Let me do a pharaphrase of the Fomos statement based on the original here for the benefit of clarity and discussion: (LOL at that translation, Fomos could very well afford any college student with decent English yet it settles for this one). Anyway, here it is.
April 2010, FOMOS contacted TL on a possible partnership. FOMOS initially thought TL is a non-profit organization so it felt no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that TL has been using its contents without permission. It turns our that TL is for profit. Still, FOMOS is open to it if TL were willing to sign a contract regarding the use of FOMOS contents.
FOMOS requested a formal contract (as stated above) granting FOMOS a minimun of 10 articles per month.
TL initially agreed to this, but it later declined respectfully saying that their (TL) writers are volunteers and they have no control over what they write or post on the site. They however state that they have influence over their writers.
FOMOS is an incorporated company, and it is imperative to have all its deals be written on paper, in a proper contract. FOMOS does not understand how it can deal with anyone without knowing how much of its contents (pages) is used and translated. FOMOS is baffled by this initial decline by TL, but would still want a formal contract. Nearly a year has passed and TL still uses FOMOS contents without a contract. FOMOS is not happy about this.
2011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
This arrangement makes no sense to FOMOS since it already has translators and plans to expand on it in the future. FOMOS does not need the English translation of its articles from TL since FOMOS has the staff to do it (translate its articles to English). FOMOS reiterates its request to share its articles in exchange for the original English ones from TL.
TL refuses the deal. FOMOS notifies TL to stop using its contents.
If FOMOS gets only translations of its own works, then it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to have a partnership with TL. In fact, when TL translates what FOMOS plans to translate for its own site, it is a detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS simply wants TL to stop using FOMOS contents, as it has the right to do so.
FOMOS is an incorporated company with 10 staff member who work hard around the clock. FOMOS writers and photographers strongly express their wishes to others to stop using their original contents.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
did you just translate an article from fomos about how they do now want TL to translate their articles anymore? :p
I can understand fomos' stance tbh. its their property and you need permission to use it. but we have only heard the story from fomos' side. lets wait for waxangel to respond!
On May 30 2011 19:36 GG.NoRe wrote: Let me do a pharaphrase of the Fomos statement based on the original here for the benefit of clarity and discussion: (LOL at that translation, Fomos could very well afford any college student with decent English yet it settles for this one). Anyway, here it is.
April 2010, FOMOS contacted TL on a possible partnership. FOMOS initially thought TL is a non-profit organization so it felt no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that TL has been using its contents without permission. It turns our that TL is for profit. Still, FOMOS is open to it if TL were willing to sign a contract regarding the use of FOMOS contents.
FOMOS requested a formal contract (as stated above) granting FOMOS a minimun of 10 articles per month.
TL initially agreed to this, but it later declined respectfully saying that their (TL) writers are volunteers and they have no control over what they write or post on the site. They however state that they have influence over their writers.
FOMOS is an incorporated company, and it is imperative to have all its deals be written on paper, in a proper contract. FOMOS does not understand how it can deal with anyone without knowing how much of its contents (pages) is used and translated. FOMOS is baffled by this initial decline by TL, but would still want a formal contract. Nearly a year has passed and TL still uses FOMOS contents without a contract. FOMOS is not happy about this.
2011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
This arrangement makes no sense to FOMOS since it already has translators and plans to expand on it in the future. FOMOS does not need the English translation of its articles from TL since FOMOS has the staff to do it (translate its articles to English). FOMOS reiterates its request to share its articles in exchange for the original English ones from TL.
TL refuses the deal. FOMOS notifies TL to stop using its contents.
If FOMOS gets only translations of its own works, then it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to have a partnership with TL. In fact, when TL translates what FOMOS plans to translate for its own site, it is a detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS simply wants TL to stop using FOMOS contents, as it has the right to do so.
FOMOS is an incorporated company with 10 staff member who work hard around the clock. FOMOS writers and photographers strongly express their wishes to others to stop using their original contents.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
did you just translate an article from fomos about how they do now want TL to translate their articles anymore? :p
I can understand fomos' stance tbh. its their property and you need permission to use it. but we have only heard the story from fomos' side. lets wait for waxangel to respond!
Ironic aint it? :p Yeah, lets wait what TL has to say about this
On May 31 2011 00:50 supernovamaniac wrote: Just to let you know: Fomos's position on TL was not a translation of a Korean article. No such news is available in Korean at the moment.
So it's more like "SDM's Fomos's position on TL" ? And I thought why the article does not look like an official statement.
Meh, the only thing that kept me up to date with the BW scene now that i more or less switched over to SC2, was in fact the translations that TL provided. I guess this was the last nail in the coffin, time to let go i suppose..
On May 31 2011 00:50 supernovamaniac wrote: Just to let you know: Fomos's position on TL was not a translation of a Korean article. No such news is available in Korean at the moment.
So it's more like "SDM's Fomos's position on TL" ? And I thought why the article does not look like an official statement.
It doesn't look like an official statement because SDM sucks at writing stuff. But it probably is Fomos's official position.
On May 30 2011 19:36 GG.NoRe wrote: Let me do a pharaphrase of the Fomos statement based on the original here for the benefit of clarity and discussion: (LOL at that translation, Fomos could very well afford any college student with decent English yet it settles for this one). Anyway, here it is.
April 2010, FOMOS contacted TL on a possible partnership. FOMOS initially thought TL is a non-profit organization so it felt no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that TL has been using its contents without permission. It turns our that TL is for profit. Still, FOMOS is open to it if TL were willing to sign a contract regarding the use of FOMOS contents.
FOMOS requested a formal contract (as stated above) granting FOMOS a minimun of 10 articles per month.
TL initially agreed to this, but it later declined respectfully saying that their (TL) writers are volunteers and they have no control over what they write or post on the site. They however state that they have influence over their writers.
FOMOS is an incorporated company, and it is imperative to have all its deals be written on paper, in a proper contract. FOMOS does not understand how it can deal with anyone without knowing how much of its contents (pages) is used and translated. FOMOS is baffled by this initial decline by TL, but would still want a formal contract. Nearly a year has passed and TL still uses FOMOS contents without a contract. FOMOS is not happy about this.
2011, FOMOS hires staff to run its GLOBAL page. Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
This arrangement makes no sense to FOMOS since it already has translators and plans to expand on it in the future. FOMOS does not need the English translation of its articles from TL since FOMOS has the staff to do it (translate its articles to English). FOMOS reiterates its request to share its articles in exchange for the original English ones from TL.
TL refuses the deal. FOMOS notifies TL to stop using its contents.
If FOMOS gets only translations of its own works, then it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to have a partnership with TL. In fact, when TL translates what FOMOS plans to translate for its own site, it is a detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS simply wants TL to stop using FOMOS contents, as it has the right to do so.
FOMOS is an incorporated company with 10 staff member who work hard around the clock. FOMOS writers and photographers strongly express their wishes to others to stop using their original contents.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
did you just translate an article from fomos about how they do now want TL to translate their articles anymore? :p
I can understand fomos' stance tbh. its their property and you need permission to use it. but we have only heard the story from fomos' side. lets wait for waxangel to respond!
Thats the second version of that article. The first one was from google translate. And fomos even put that version on their site.
On May 30 2011 20:16 konadora wrote: when we translators were first contacted, we decided not to go with it since meeting a quota set by a company did not fit in our image of "voluntary community work". it would become a "we have to do this" instead of "we want to do this."
this is MY view from here, not TeamLiquid's staffs' or other translators' views anyway, this is fomos' loss, their translators suck and we don't need their recycled interviews that much anyway. there are other sources for that.
Instead of having a "minimal" amount of articles, would the exchange of all TL translations and BW original articles be worth it?
If TL translators are volunteers, are the translations owned by the individual translators or TL?
Fomos make TL sound like some slave driver by painting it with an image of making money off volunteer work =S.
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
The above is the verbatim from Fomos. Now it gets interesting. So let me get this straight. 1. Fomos tolerated TL from using/translating its contents because it thought TL was non-profit 2. Fomos found out TL is a business, but still oks the use of its contents but wants an agreement and a contract 3. April 2010, Fomos talks to TL, states its requests: "10 articles per month, and a formal contract" (later on this) 4. TL does agree fully, saying it has no control over the contributors 5. Fomos demands its right to its contents, and have the agreement in black ad white, but TL seems vague on it(?) This initial discussion end in the meantime, while TL still uses Fomos contents. 6. 2011, Fomos starts global page. Renegotiates with TL, asking for rights to its original English articles as well. TL rejects this, but would be ok for Fomos to use the translated articles that came from Fomos in the first place. 7. Fomos does not understand this, citing that it has little use for the translation if ITS own contents given it already has translators and there are more to be hired 8. Fomos demands TL to stop infringing its contents. So here we are now.
So based on this, TL is the one who actually stone-walled? Is this correct? I wonder how the negotiations went, and why, if Fomos version is correct, TL refused use of its original content when Fomos is opening its contents to TL. Btw, does the "10-article" thing mean that Fomos wants TL to publish ONLY 10 of its articles in a month? I can see this as difficult for TL, since on a good month, as many as 30 interviews are made. Still, it is Fomos contents. All throughout their statement, Fomos seems to emphasize that they are they once actually reaching out and negotiating, which imo should be the other way around. If everyhthing Fomos said in there is true and is the whole picture of this story, I think TL was a little to hard and could have negotiated a mutually beneficial middle ground. Can TL please enlighten us on this one.
I believe Fomos wanted to get 10 articles a month from TL. TL can't agree to that, because:
1. The people who do it are volunteers. They can make a billion articles this month, and then none after that. TL would be violating the contract. As there is no saying to how many articles will be made in a month, it's not possible to put that black on white (unless you like gambling and losing). 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
EDIT: [\spoiler] instead of [\s]
Boom. You're a smart boy. Will wait for wax for the rest.
I'm guessing *all* they need is a click to their own website, from each TL user who wishes to see a translation, or a picture - so! - why not implement a TL posting feature that gives them exactly that?? Say, [Fomos]-tag, which means you have to click and have the source from their website load in a popup window, while this activates the resource in TL for you to see or read. I think implementing such feature and contracting it with them for fair use should make everybody in this conflict happy.
Mind you, often enough TL readers are going to actually look at the popup window and even click on stuff there too, so it would truly increase their website's ad-value.
On May 30 2011 20:42 StarStruck wrote: What he said makes sense. We all know TL isn't non-profit anymore; however, R1CH and Hot_Bid are the only full-time employees on staff. All the writers and translators volunteer their time to giving us content on their own accord.
A non-profit organization is able to pay salaries to its employees. What it can't do, is distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders.
On May 30 2011 19:17 Vipsanius wrote: 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
This isn't really a new issue though. Currently writers/translators (and other contributers) volunteer their time (if they wish to) and TL benefits from the contents (in traffic/ads). A direct payment from fomos for their work does make that line more black and white, but as far as I can see as long as the revenue is treated as non-profit (i.e. going towards helping TL in the form of new servers, more paid staff, etc) it doesn't really change the status quo.
On May 30 2011 20:42 StarStruck wrote: What he said makes sense. We all know TL isn't non-profit anymore; however, R1CH and Hot_Bid are the only full-time employees on staff. All the writers and translators volunteer their time to giving us content on their own accord.
A non-profit organization is able to pay salaries to its employees. What it can't do, is distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders.
On May 30 2011 19:17 Vipsanius wrote: 2. The people who write articles aren't payed. If TL has a contract with Fomos, and there is money going around, the people that write articles get screwed over. Wether they like it or not.
This isn't really a new issue though. Currently writers/translators (and other contributers) volunteer their time (if they wish to) and TL benefits from the contents (in traffic/ads). A direct payment from fomos for their work does make that line more black and white, but as far as I can see as long as the revenue is treated as non-profit (i.e. going towards helping TL in the form of new servers, more paid staff, etc) it doesn't really change the status quo.
It's asking voluenteers to commit to a minimum amount of work - something TL has never does. That's it.
On May 31 2011 06:11 Gummy wrote: How is TL for-profit? TL has shareholders? Can I invest? What is the rate of dividend?
The mid-Banner.
That only makes it for-revenue. That doesn't mean it pays out to shareholders. I just thought the fulltime employees just got paid based on ad revenues, etc... I didn't realize that TL actually had a stock structure!
On May 31 2011 06:11 Gummy wrote: How is TL for-profit? TL has shareholders? Can I invest? What is the rate of dividend?
The mid-Banner.
That only makes it for-revenue. That doesn't mean it pays out to shareholders. I just thought the fulltime employees just got paid based on ad revenues, etc... I didn't realize that TL actually had a stock structure!
Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
So at this point were they still requesting a contract with a minimum amount of articles or did this actually fall through because Fomos wanted to put up translations of Final Edits or whatever.
Still wanting to have a partnership with TL, it renegotiates once again, requesting that in exchange for its interviews for TL to translate, TL should also share some of its original English contents. TL feels that sharing its English articles is not a good deal for them. TL however states that FOMOS can use the English translation of the articles it got from FOMOS.
So at this point were they still requesting a contract with a minimum amount of articles or did this actually fall through because Fomos wanted to put up translations of Final Edits or whatever.
I want to know this too, because it would open the question "Why does TL not want their FE's to be translated?" It's not like we cater to the Korean community really, and this way we can have some of our other great pieces go Korean (: Unless there is something in the works for this happening anyway... That would be sick n_n
On May 31 2011 07:30 koreasilver wrote: If you look at Ver's recent Savior FE, some Russian guys translated the WHOLE thing for a Russian site and there's 0 problems.
On May 31 2011 07:30 koreasilver wrote: If you look at Ver's recent Savior FE, some Russian guys translated the WHOLE thing for a Russian site and there's 0 problems.
On May 31 2011 07:49 Shauni wrote: I'm still wondering why FOMOS consider TL a profit organization. Has something happened lately with SC2 or are they lying?
The difference between being for-profit or an NPO comes down to whether or not its owners (in this case Nazgul and Meat) are allowed to personally profit off of surplus revenue the business generates. NPOs are still allowed to pay salaries, rent offices (like the TL headquarters apartment), pay for servers/bandwidth, etc. It just means they are required to reinvest all the profits back into furthering the business, whereas a for-profit organization is not.
On May 31 2011 07:30 koreasilver wrote: If you look at Ver's recent Savior FE, some Russian guys translated the WHOLE thing for a Russian site and there's 0 problems.
People seems to be misunderstanding where the issue comes from. FOMOS is venturing in the English market with a Chinese company who will do the English content. TL was previously their first choice but the deal didn't work out. FOMOS might or might not be aware of the Russian site, and if they are but aren't doing anything about it, it's because it's not directly affecting their business strategy as TL was previously doing by translating and posting full English interviews.
The first thing people need to understand is that they are a business, and regardless of what we want as followers of BW, they have to protect their intellectual property.
That FOMOS letter was insulting to read. Not because it was terribly written, but the fact that another e-sports related organization is using non-profit as a basis for a potential charitable exchange when in fact their motivation is to get something equitable.
I honestly think TL should just troll FOMOS with a mock financial statement considering it probably views for-profit as "money-making." I'd present something along the lines of these financials:
TL.net Income Statement for the period ended 1/1/2010 to 12/31/2010
That should provide enough information that TL.net is definitely a non-profit organization. FOMOS should have no more excuses and allow us to post their shit for free.
On May 31 2011 07:30 koreasilver wrote: If you look at Ver's recent Savior FE, some Russian guys translated the WHOLE thing for a Russian site and there's 0 problems.
People seems to be misunderstanding where the issue comes from. FOMOS is venturing in the English market with a Chinese company who will do the English content. TL was previously their first choice but the deal didn't work out. FOMOS might or might not be aware of the Russian site, and if they are but aren't doing anything about it, it's because it's not directly affecting their business strategy as TL was previously doing by translating and posting full English interviews.
The first thing people need to understand is that they are a business, and regardless of what we want as followers of BW, they have to protect their intellectual property.
On May 31 2011 09:24 broz0rs wrote: That FOMOS letter was insulting to read. Not because it was terribly written, but the fact that another e-sports related organization is using non-profit as a basis for a potential charitable exchange when in fact their motivation is to get something equitable.
I honestly think TL should just troll FOMOS with a mock financial statement considering it probably views for-profit as "money-making." I'd present something along the lines of these financials:
TL.net Income Statement for the period ended 1/1/2010 to 12/31/2010
That should provide enough information that TL.net is definitely a non-profit organization. FOMOS should have no more excuses and allow us to post their shit for free.
Damn, i hope they don't spent 90% of the ads revenue in salaries, because TL must pay a little fortune for their servers.
Fomos makes no sense... Claim is that they have their own writers (superdanielman) for global content so having access to their korean articles that have been translated into English is useless.
They still want(ed) partnership for the original content that TL creates... but what would they do with that? Just post it on their global page? No one is going to read it on their global page because people who use English go to teamliquid for teamliquid articles... It doesn't make sense for them to turn it into a Korean translated article because "they got their own writing staff" that produce their own original content. Plus, a lot of the teamliquid articles are aimed towards the foreigners and much of what they cover is of the foreign scene.
FOMOS' position with teamliquid 2011년 05월 30일 15시 56분
[FOMOS]
1. Fomos first contacted teamliquid on a possible partnership last year in April, Fomos initially thought, since teamliquid was a non-profit organization, there is no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that they have been using the Fomos’ content without permission. It turns out that they do make profit. But that was still okay if they were willing to sign a legitimate contract with FOMOS. 2. FOMOS requests: A.10 articles per MONTH, and a formal contract.
3. Teamliquid’s initial reaction was ok, later respectfully denies. A. on the grounds that writers are volunteers, and that they don’t control them. However do suggest that they do have influence over the writers.
Fomos is an incorporated company, it is imperative that all deals must be concrete on a piece of paper, a contract. Can’t fathom the idea of not knowing how many pages could be provided as translation work.
Fomos is very baffled by the stance of teamliquid, but is persistent on forming a partnership with teamliquid. Nearly a year passes by, in this time FOMOS articles are still posted on Teamliquid. Fomos is not appreciative of this.
2011 FOMOS hires a staff to run the GLOBAL page. Still wants a contract with teamliquid, FOMOS wants to negotiate the grounds of using some of their original English articles as well. Teamliquid feels that taking the English articles is not a good deal for them. However the FOMOS translated articles can be taken by FOMOS.
Aforementioned offer is nonsensical to FOMOS since, it already has a translator, more will be hired in the near future.
FOMOS doesn’t need the translated articles, since they have a staff member to do it, but still wants to make a deal as long as some original English written articles can be used.
The deal is refused, FOMOS notifies teamliquid to stop using our content.
If FOMOS doesn’t get more than just a translated work of FOMOS’ content, it is not in the best interest of FOMOS to form a partnership with teamliquid, in fact when teamliquid translates what’s already been translated or what is about to be translated by FOMOS, it creates a huge detriment to FOMOS.
FOMOS just simply wants them to stop using FOMOS content, since it is FOMOS’
FOMOS is an incorporated company, has 10 staff members, whom works the arduous hours of working around the clock, photographers and writers also wishes strongly for them to stop taking their articles.
superdaniel@fomos.co.kr twitter:superdanielman
am i reading this wrong or do they want to
1. put volunteers under indirect contract with them
2. exchange articles in korean to be translated by volunteers on tl to post in english for articles originally written in english - by volunteers- to post on their site still in english (aka give translation rights for some of their articles in exchange for full ownership rights of some tl articles) (yes, no, or ??)
do correct me if i'm wrong please, but for now i'll have to reinforce my previous hate post on the matter with this point.
its thier business which is completely cool but it seems like this will hurt whats left of the foreigner bw scene but maybe every1s overreacting doubt it though
On May 31 2011 10:33 Highways wrote: After reading Fomo's response I feel that they are in the right.
Anyone feel that TL is getting up themselves now? First the EG masters cup debacle and now this.
Joined 7-29-2005
....you actually believe what you wrote? Incredibly disappointing.
Can someone please explain the EG Masters Cup Debacle or link to a thread? I'm interested, the search just comes up with EG Masters Cup tournament threads etc. But doesn't seem controversial.
Does not have to be word for word, can just be a summary. Definitely not as good as usual, but I think a lot of people here are getting the idea that the foreigners cannot know anything going on in Fomos.
On May 31 2011 07:49 Shauni wrote: I'm still wondering why FOMOS consider TL a profit organization. Has something happened lately with SC2 or are they lying?
There's nothing underhand about it. For most of the BW days, Teamliquid didn't have ads. And because it was much smaller, according to what Admins said, they made basically nothing and invested every penny back into the site. Fomos seemed to have expected that was still the case.
I admit it's a little weird. We used to mock Gosugamer's owners incessantly when we found it they made a living from running the site. But hey, Tl.net is massive now. Gotta get used to it. Nothing wrong with it.
Just my opinion, can we let SDM representing TL translators to join the 10article/month contract, kinda a middleman, three way contract.
So, - SDM: have the right to use fomos content and let TL use this right so that TL translator can translate fomos materials, can post TL english translation on fomos global, will translate the 10 article/month on his own if number of article translation is not enough like what he has been doing - TL translator: can translate fomos article voluntarily without bound to a contract - Fomos: get translations in exchange for letting TL use the original article.
Of course acknowledging fomos source and TL translator is a must from both sides when posting translation, maybe when the translation got posted on fomos global, TL will remove the translation and replace with the link to fomos global so they can regenerate views after all..
Tho if they seriously join partnership with the China and paid sth for their english translation already, i doubt they will wanna hang around with TL anymore.
Is there any chance that this is actually because they do not clearly understand how TL works? Is it some kind of miscommunication?
I mean, yes TL is a "for profit" site, but the vast majority of stuff done here is actually by volunteers. As such, without hiring a translator, there was no way that TL can agree to the terms Fomos wanted.....
OTOH, could TL actually "hire" a translator to do this type of stuff to fill the quota for Fomos, and then have anything above and beyond as voluntary?
Personally, I think it's unfortunate that we couldn't agree to terms. I guess that's just how it is for strictly business news outfits. We were also unable to reach an agreement with ThisIsGame.com, another Korean news site (SC II focused), but on the other hand, the community site PlayXP.com was more than happy to agree to our terms.
Thanks for the update Wax, I expected it was something along those lines given the cooperation with PlayXP. It's unfortunate fomos wanted more and kind of annoying that they made it out to be teamliquid's fault.
Is there any BW content to translate from PlayXP? My Korean is really poor but it seems to me like there's SC2 only :c Also, is there any agreement made with DES or are we basically waiting until they "find out" or "begin to care" and see what happens?
Thanks for the update, wax. Your terms seems perfectly reasonable. I thoroughly believe that fomos will regret not accepting these very simple and logical terms, since a korean news/community site will just never have the same appeal as TL for foreigners. In other words, I don't think their "global section" investment will pay off for them. We don't just want translated news and pics; we want to discuss it. This is our forum.
I don't think their request to share english to english and korean to korean articles was that bad an idea, in terms of what's best for the community. You both publish interesting content, you both have loyal fanbases... What's the problem? Especially if you credit where the original article is from.
If they wanna repost our articles it's honestly no huge loss lol.
Wow, I hadn't expected those terms demanded by Fomos. A TL quota and free reproduction of all TL content is highly ridiculous, isn't it? It's just not limited to copying English translations of their own articles but includes all of TL's original materials to help their English site.
The quota isn't a good idea. As a fan translator from time to time, the standards for quality goes up for paid articles and the enjoyment goes down when it has to be done. On top of probably demanding about $50 per article, it'd become a job to translate. Fan translations are done in the spirit of community and open sharing to a limited degree.
@Chef: Fomos' demands weren't limited to the translations and it become competitor for traffic.
On June 02 2011 07:52 Chef wrote: I don't think their request to share english to english and korean to korean articles was that bad an idea, in terms of what's best for the community. You both publish interesting content, you both have loyal fanbases... What's the problem?
To be clear, they did not offer reciprocation. Don't get confused.
I'm really disgusted by the fact that they're response to offering a fair translation exchange between the websites is for them to come back and say they want to copy and unedited, unaltered version of TL.net for korean english speaking fans.
Don't get me wrong, Furthering the community across boarders should certainly be one of the top priorities for eSports, But too me that request just comes off as so petty.
It's like "Well we don't want you using any of our stuff, But we're okay with you giving us everything you have to use on our end if you're okay with that.."
On June 02 2011 07:52 Chef wrote: I don't think their request to share english to english and korean to korean articles was that bad an idea, in terms of what's best for the community. You both publish interesting content, you both have loyal fanbases... What's the problem?
To be clear, they did not offer reciprocation. Don't get confused.
Oh, I know, but I feel like you could bargain for it if that's what they were asking. Negotiating always starts with terms to probe how much the other party wants to make the deal (if I learned anything from D2 trading LOL). Admittedly it's a pretty low ball offer and a bit disrespectful, but I feel like you could come a reasonable terms.
I don't really buy the 'competitors for traffic' angle. The content will look better on the site it was originally hosted on, will be updated faster on the site it was originally hosted on... Essentially English fans will be lead to TL, and Korean fans will stay at Fomos. They don't really gain all that much from putting our content on their site except maybe a couple people from Asian countries who can't get TL to load quickly. Certainly they won't lessen TL's viewership.
I'm sort of half aware that I'm speaking way over my head here and that I don't know enough details to make these assertions, but I really value Fomos' interviews and I think TL should be willing to earn their rights. We don't have that much to offer Fomos except helping their English site, since we are so far away from the center of eSports. In exchange we get a live feed in Korea? It sounds like a decent deal.
I dont know why people think "losing" Fomos is such a big deal. All you lose is a few featured interviews they do every once in a while. As for the main interviews, we can still use DES and their features.
Given that there's a ton of untranslated korean stuff everywhere i dont see why people think Fomos is such a big deal when there's always a lack of translators to cover everything anyway.
Also Chef: it is easy to say "oh you could just keep negotiating" if you were completely unaware of their attitude towards TeamLiquid. Just read the Fomos official statement and you should get a glimpse of what Fomos thinks of TL.
Content is more valuable the more places it appears. For freelance writers, the prospect of free distribution to new audiences isn't such a terrible offer. It expands the writer's audience and reach. However, Fomos might change around the presentation to undesirable ends.
But for TeamLiquid, the website, the asymmetrical distribution of reproduction rights is not appealing at all. It packages up the work of TL's original writing crew along with the translators and gifts the labor to Fomos. There is no good reason to accept a partnership like that.
Granted Fomos' English site will never be a good competitor in the near future. But if they want this kind of agreement, might as contribute to their continued irrelevance. And if it just a negotiating ploy, then it's not working.
Idk, having read fomos side I think they're being pretty fair. If they already have someone paid to translate its obnoxious to have us translate their stuff. We may be faster but it doesn't do them any good to have it read here; as far as I can tell translated material is the only draw it has to foreign fans. We steal a lot of their usefulness and more over don't they collect these articles and interviews themselves in korean before they're translated, it makes sense that they'd want something back for their original content like maybe our original content. It feels like we're trying to push fomos around :/
Its not so much losing the ability to translate fomos as it is losing rights to using fomos images. fomos and DES images pretty much make the entirety of TL's BW photo base (ever since nevergg retired), losing half the potential photos is a big deal. unforunate that things ended up this way.
i just dont understand why there was no "teaser + link" agreement. Like, a TL volunteer translates an article and posts it on Fomos. Then puts a teaser to the article on TL. It's pretty common practice for most gaming sites and both Fomos and TL benefit.
However, I don't think the TL Original Articles being copied over to the Fomos site is reasonable. Maybe they should have a similar teaser thing.
On June 02 2011 08:36 Milkis wrote: I dont know why people think "losing" Fomos is such a big deal. All you lose is a few featured interviews they do every once in a while. As for the main interviews, we can still use DES and their features.
Given that there's a ton of untranslated korean stuff everywhere i dont see why people think Fomos is such a big deal when there's always a lack of translators to cover everything anyway.
Also Chef: it is easy to say "oh you could just keep negotiating" if you were completely unaware of their attitude towards TeamLiquid. Just read the Fomos official statement and you should get a glimpse of what Fomos thinks of TL.
I tried googling FighterForum but apparently its gone now?
On June 02 2011 09:06 TanGeng wrote: Granted Fomos' English site will never be a good competitor in the near future. But if they want this kind of agreement, might as contribute to their continued irrelevance. And if it just a negotiating ploy, then it's not working.
I find it difficult to believe that Fomos' English site will ever be relevant :/
On June 02 2011 09:12 n.DieJokes wrote: Idk, having read fomos side I think they're being pretty fair. If they already have someone paid to translate its obnoxious to have us translate their stuff. We may be faster but it doesn't do them any good to have it read here; as far as I can tell translated material is the only draw it has to foreign fans. We steal a lot of their usefulness and more over don't they collect these articles and interviews themselves in korean before they're translated, it makes sense that they'd want something back for their original content like maybe our original content. It feels like we're trying to push fomos around :/
Okay, this is all just purely speculation on my part...
It's easy to see why Fomos thinks they are being fair because they actually think the people they have hired to run the Global site actually use good English (otherwise, why would they hire them, right?). However, anybody who has a good grasp of the English language can see that that is clearly not the case. Need an example? Look at the statement they released and tell me with a straight face that that was good English. What our volunteers provide have been of far higher quality than what you'd find there (or most of the internet for that matter) from their paid workers. From my perspective, it is hard to imagine why they would not want free-labor (better labor) and free-exposure in the foreign market, but if Fomos did actually think their workers were doing good work, I can totally see why they think we are being unreasonable. If I had to guess, this is where we had to agreed to disagree.
Additionally, although they have ambitions of becoming a competitor to TL.net in BW coverage outside of Korea, TL has no plans to start a Korean-language website so the agreement of same-language article exchanges would not be equal. And that is ignoring the very principle that we would probably reject such a proposal no matter what. But if they thought we might be interested in expanding into their language-market, maybe they saw their proposal as being very fair as well.
I kinda agree with Chef. Why not set a limit. They can copypasta English contents but only a certain number per month, and have the deal on an exploratory effectivity period, like 3 months, just to see how it goes and to see how far fomos is willing to push it. To the foreigners, as well as koreans who happen to look at Fomos global, the difference in quality will become obvious (between original fomos contents and one from TL) and will just lead to traffic to TL. Having it on a certain period will ensure that TL will have control eventually, in case later it finds it too disadvantageous. I dont mind the interviews as you can get them anywhere, but the real price of this imo is the contents already here in TL over the years (Nada's body, anyone).
The quota thing is impossible though.
We hope that Fomos will invest heavily in their global site so that international fans will continue to be able to enjoy their excellent Brood War coverage.
lol waxangel. sounds bitter. imo this should be revised for subtlety. hahaha
On June 02 2011 09:12 n.DieJokes wrote: Idk, having read fomos side I think they're being pretty fair. If they already have someone paid to translate its obnoxious to have us translate their stuff. We may be faster but it doesn't do them any good to have it read here; as far as I can tell translated material is the only draw it has to foreign fans. We steal a lot of their usefulness and more over don't they collect these articles and interviews themselves in korean before they're translated, it makes sense that they'd want something back for their original content like maybe our original content. It feels like we're trying to push fomos around :/
Okay, this is all just purely speculation on my part...
It's easy to see why Fomos thinks they are being fair because they actually think the people they have hired to run the Global site actually uses good English (otherwise, why would they hire them, right?). However, anybody who has a good grasp of the English language can see that that is clearly not the case. Need an example? Look at their statement they released and tell me with a straight face that that was good English. What our volunteers provide have been of far higher quality than what you'd find there (or most of the internet for that matter) from their paid workers. From my perspective, it is hard to imagine why they would not want free-labor (better labor) and free-exposure in the foreign market, but if Fomos did actually think their workers were doing good work, I can totally see why they think we are being unreasonable. If I had to guess, this is where we had to agreed to disagree.
Additionally, although they have ambitions of becoming a competitor to TL.net in BW coverage outside of Korea, TL has no plans to start a Korean-language website so the agreement of same-language article exchanges would not be equal. And that is ignoring the very principle that we would probably reject such a proposal no matter what. But if they thought we might be interested in expanding into their language-market, maybe they saw their proposal as being very fair as well.
hey i just started translating some articles for them. I agreed to do 1 a day. Hopefully my writing suffices as "good English" but if you see some flat out badness or just plain wrong translations please PM me. I'm doing it to get some experience and to have something I can put on my resume when I apply for English Editor jobs here in Seoul.
Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
On June 02 2011 13:15 Klogon wrote: Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
Thanks. And to be clear, TL translators are like 50x better than me always will be. Also, I'm not really "hired" so please, TeamLiquiders, don't mistake my goal as getting compensation for relatively subpar work. I just need the exp.
On June 02 2011 13:15 Klogon wrote: Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
Thanks. And to be clear, TL translators are like 50x better than me always will be. Also, I'm not really "hired" so please, TeamLiquiders, don't mistake my goal as getting compensation for relatively subpar work. I just need the exp.
Why dont you do it here then, where you'll be more appreciated and people can provide you feedback directly? =/
On June 02 2011 13:15 Klogon wrote: Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
Thanks. And to be clear, TL translators are like 50x better than me always will be. Also, I'm not really "hired" so please, TeamLiquiders, don't mistake my goal as getting compensation for relatively subpar work. I just need the exp.
Why dont you do it here then, where you'll be more appreciated and people can provide you feedback directly? =/
On June 02 2011 13:15 Klogon wrote: Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
Thanks. And to be clear, TL translators are like 50x better than me always will be. Also, I'm not really "hired" so please, TeamLiquiders, don't mistake my goal as getting compensation for relatively subpar work. I just need the exp.
Why dont you do it here then, where you'll be more appreciated and people can provide you feedback directly? =/
A few reasons:
First is that I'm interested in the resume experience. Fomos is a Korean company that, if not widely recognized, is easily referable when I write my Resume. I just recently applied for an English Editor job at the Korean institute of Finance, and it became clear to me that my resume lacked any evidence of my translating ability. So when this came up, I took it (without realizing all the hate going on in the thread, I was banned so I didn't really follow).
Second is that I always felt TL had plenty of excellent translators who are faster and more skilled than me. I didnt' really want to compete with them I guess so I never felt an incentive to translate here.
Third is SuperDanielMan is a pretty cool guy when u get to meet him. And he's fucking ripped.
On June 02 2011 13:15 Klogon wrote: Well if that's the case, then good luck! Hopefully there will just be more material for English speakers. I don't mean to be a downer for your motivation - it was just my personal opinion/speculation based on what I saw. But like I said, wish you the best of luck if they are indeed hiring more helping hands.
Thanks. And to be clear, TL translators are like 50x better than me always will be. Also, I'm not really "hired" so please, TeamLiquiders, don't mistake my goal as getting compensation for relatively subpar work. I just need the exp.
Why dont you do it here then, where you'll be more appreciated and people can provide you feedback directly? =/
but if he's looking for a job in korea and merely wants to have a better resume, it will be a better to work in a company more well-known in korea, isnt it?
On June 02 2011 14:09 LunarDestiny wrote: So it's pretty much get interviews on live streams or is teamliquid going have people translating the interviews live then post them on teamliquid.
From what I gather from this thread, the Chinese sources that translators use are also under copyrights.
Yeah their statement on team liquid is pretty poor for an official company statement (in terms of english). I do understand why FOMOS would want a minimum of a certain number of articles translated, (not that I am saying it is a good idea). But I find the idea of using another site's content straight up is pretty unreasonable. Just like in the OP, if team liquid opened a site in a different language, I dont see how anyone would come to the conclusion it would be ok to just use another group's content because they are the same language.
Oh, SDM translated it - I'd recommend everyone at least go to Fomos and check it out. Given that this is the way things have turned out so far, our best hope is that they ramp up the quality of their translations. My favorite quote from the interview thus far:
"Bisu: I think any games besides starcraft are all boring. "
On June 02 2011 08:36 Milkis wrote: I dont know why people think "losing" Fomos is such a big deal. All you lose is a few featured interviews they do every once in a while. As for the main interviews, we can still use DES and their features.
Given that there's a ton of untranslated korean stuff everywhere i dont see why people think Fomos is such a big deal when there's always a lack of translators to cover everything anyway.
Also Chef: it is easy to say "oh you could just keep negotiating" if you were completely unaware of their attitude towards TeamLiquid. Just read the Fomos official statement and you should get a glimpse of what Fomos thinks of TL.
My mistake. I thought pretty much all our post-game interviews and pictures were coming from Fomos.
The winner interviews from Oz vs. WeMade on Fomos are already up. There are also some short game summaries.
I am still not sure how to deal with this stuff. Ignoring BW content is probably the worst option but opening a new thread everytime for no-TL content also seems kind of random. How about a "Fomos Global" thread in the BW general that can get bumped whenever they have something interesting new?
I'm confused as to who Fomos thinks their main target audience is? Because as far as I can tell, TL has pretty much a death grip 99% of the foreign BW crowd and the Koreans literally do not give half a shit about the global section, not to mention that half of them probably aren't aware of its existence.
On June 07 2011 06:00 salito wrote: I'm not sure if we should be giving them traffic period.
Yes we should period. And not only that but we should support them. Why would you boycott a website that tries to spread BW around the world? The Global section on Fomos is a really good thing because they invest time and money into BW.
On June 07 2011 07:18 ICanFlyLow wrote: Send a TL journalist team over there and interview them yourself That way you wont have to hassle with anything anymore
going to Korea to work full-time for TL is harder than you think... staff have a passion for starcraft, but have their own lives to go about as well.
"April 2010, FOMOS contacted TL on a possible partnership. FOMOS initially thought TL is a non-profit organization so it felt no need to stir up emotions by pointing out the fact that TL has been using its contents without permission. It turns our that TL is for profit. Still, FOMOS is open to it if TL were willing to sign a contract regarding the use of FOMOS contents."
Didn't TeamLiquid become insanely popular during and soon after the launch of SC2?
I doubt TL made much "profit" from their site before that happened.
On June 07 2011 09:19 AttackZerg wrote: If all of the content that came from fomos was done by members of the community and not teamliquid staff where is the the qualm?
If it is illegal to post content and link from other parts of the internet as well? What are the legal implications of the IP of websites?
From what I'm reading, Fomo's thinks that because volunteers translated Brood War articles from their site, that they think it made TeamLiquid popular and made money for themselves, and Fomos didn't like that and tried to make some negotiations with TL and TL didn't want it. What they fail to realize is, most of the visitors to this site are SC2 generation. It baffles me that Fomos wants to argue. Makes me want to never look at their site as well.
Quote the interview and translate them generalized so its not one to one translation. Leave out the picture and Fomos can't complain or claim copyright on that.
If someone takes their content, translate it, but not put it up on TL, is it allowed?
For instance, what if instead of just straight up creating a thread regarding a Fomos article; someone translates the article, upload it on a diff site, and just give the link to TL. Then technically, TL is not hosting any Fomos content.
Well we do source the original article so I don't see whats the big deal with it. I might be able to see them upset with the pictures but over the translated article?
On June 07 2011 14:17 Seeker wrote: Question regarding Fomos content:
If someone takes their content, translate it, but not put it up on TL, is it allowed?
For instance, what if instead of just straight up creating a thread regarding a Fomos article; someone translates the article, upload it on a diff site, and just give the link to TL. Then technically, TL is not hosting any Fomos content.
On June 07 2011 17:04 MuffinDude wrote: Well we do source the original article so I don't see whats the big deal with it. I might be able to see them upset with the pictures but over the translated article?
On June 07 2011 14:17 Seeker wrote: Question regarding Fomos content:
If someone takes their content, translate it, but not put it up on TL, is it allowed?
For instance, what if instead of just straight up creating a thread regarding a Fomos article; someone translates the article, upload it on a diff site, and just give the link to TL. Then technically, TL is not hosting any Fomos content.
Just a thought.
Lol. Kinda obvious TL is behind it so prob no.
not TL, the users of TL; doing this would absolve TL of any legal implication.
however, this thing isn't about legal implication since realistically fomos couldn't do shit to TL if they decided to continue using their content.
it's a matter of respectability of one's site and respect between the big sites that sustain the scene. and doing this would be the same as taking the content directly. TL is just too classy.
anyway, i stopped reading any (fomos) bw content since they pulled this shit, there's no way i'm giving them traffic now or in the future no matter how much i'm itching to read that Bisu interview.
WTF TL IS FOR PROFIT? where does tl make their money from? -_-
oh and was being allowed to upload tl english content onto their site the only thing they asked for in return? i dont see wahts the big deal with that....as long as they give credit to tl
On June 07 2011 19:00 Psychobabas wrote: How about this:
Somebody translates and just uploads it on file hosting sites, then all TL.net uses is the link.
IMO, you're still breaking their copyrights. It's more or less like sharing links to illegal downloads.
How about we upload it on Nevake? We don't even need to link it on TL, because a lot of ppl are aware of Nevake. We inform the users of TL of going into Nevake, then the articles will be on Nevake.
Yep, we ll just have to accept that DES is our new bible I pains my heart to read fomos when i compare SDM's latest translation to our own Translators' version anw theres such a big discrepancy in quality.
Why didn't TL accept the terms of Fomos ? For me it seems that the terms proposed by TL to Fomos is not too fair, since they don't have the need to translate Eng->Kr and there's not much English content on TL to translate comparing with the amount of Kr content. I don't think allowing them to copy English translation to their site is unfair since it is obvious that they put money and effort into the original content, so when they share them to TL we should just share our product with them instead of giving them something of no interest for them.
On June 08 2011 01:59 kamikami wrote: Why didn't TL accept the terms of Fomos ? For me it seems that the terms proposed by TL to Fomos is not too fair, since they don't have the need to translate Eng->Kr and there's not much English content on TL to translate comparing with the amount of Kr content. I don't think allowing them to copy English translation to their site is unfair since it is obvious that they put money and effort into the original content, so when they share them to TL we should just share our product with them instead of giving them something of no interest for them.
It wanted permission to copy TL.net's original English content and republish it, unaltered and untranslated, on its own English language site.
I think this was the problem. Not the translations, all TL wanted for those was credit.
There are some things going on within Fomos at the moment regarding the English/Global section that has resulted in the halt of any news being posted onto the Global Section.
I do not know much right now but I will try to get more information on this. I am just one of the volunteers writing International Events for them here and there.
On August 09 2011 19:38 Kiante wrote: scumbag fomos. stop TL translating because they say they will translate, then stop translating. lol.
Well, somethings just did not go right within the organization, I cannot speak for them nor do I know much but I assume they are trying to work it out.
Them telling TL to stop translating I feel has nothing to do with themselves translating.
On August 09 2011 19:36 DexVitality wrote: There are some things going on within Fomos at the moment regarding the English/Global section that has resulted in the halt of any news being posted onto the Global Section.
I do not know much right now but I will try to get more information on this. I am just one of the volunteers writing International Events for them here and there.
Okay thanks! If you have any further info and are able to tell us pls do.
On August 09 2011 19:38 Kiante wrote: scumbag fomos. stop TL translating because they say they will translate, then stop translating. lol.
Well, somethings just did not go right within the organization, I cannot speak for them nor do I know much but I assume they are trying to work it out.
Them telling TL to stop translating I feel has nothing to do with themselves translating.
When TL were translating you guy's kept screaming around that we are making money out of your articles fine . Than we stop translating and to show that you guys can actually translate you did a few articles and some coverage and stop half way after all you guy's don't have the sources to steal anymore isn't that right ? . Please prove me wrong because if fomos really wants to reach out to their foreign fan base they better stop slacking .
Ok just to clarify now that I have spoken with SuperDanielMan (Daniel Lee).
So I am sure as you all know that the Fomos international thing was all really spearheaded by SDM. I have since learned that in late July, SDM was released from his duties and both parties parted ways with mutual understanding that their views were different from each other and decided to move on.
This happened most likely when the posts stopped getting posted on the Global Section of Fomos. So as of right now, there is no activity in the Fomos Global Section until Fomos decides what to do with it, if they want to search for a replacement for SDM to run the site or to just stop the activity completely.
I just wanted to clear something up regarding the Foreign BW Community and this is just something from my view and things I have discussed with SDM on this topic.
The reason why Fomos asked TL to stop using their articles was because both parties made offers to each other and they did not come to an agreement and hence they told TL to stop using their articles. At the end of the day, Fomos is a business and it will conduct itself as so. They realized long ago that TL has taken and translated their articles without their permission, it was not until recently that they started to speak up on the matter (I don't know why they took so long but.. w/e).
Fomos telling TL to stop using their articles and themselves making their own translations had nothing to do with each other from what I know, it was purely just a copyright infringement thing.
One of the things that has led to this situation in Fomos has been their lackluster SmartPhone App which was developed and released and it failed to meet expectations which then (I assume here) caused them to rethink what direction they want to go.
I have emailed and will try to get in contact with Fomos asking them about the situation about the Global section as SDM no longer has any ties to the site so.... I guess I will fill you guys in once I get a reply? If i get a reply...
On August 10 2011 04:03 DexVitality wrote: Ok just to clarify now that I have spoken with SuperDanielMan (Daniel Lee).
So I am sure as you all know that the Fomos international thing was all really spearheaded by SDM. I have since learned that in late July, SDM was released from his duties and both parties parted ways with mutual understanding that their views were different from each other and decided to move on.
This happened most likely when the posts stopped getting posted on the Global Section of Fomos. So as of right now, there is no activity in the Fomos Global Section until Fomos decides what to do with it, if they want to search for a replacement for SDM to run the site or to just stop the activity completely.
I just wanted to clear something up regarding the Foreign BW Community and this is just something from my view and things I have discussed with SDM on this topic.
The reason why Fomos asked TL to stop using their articles was because both parties made offers to each other and they did not come to an agreement and hence they told TL to stop using their articles. At the end of the day, Fomos is a business and it will conduct itself as so. They realized long ago that TL has taken and translated their articles without their permission, it was not until recently that they started to speak up on the matter (I don't know why they took so long but.. w/e).
Fomos telling TL to stop using their articles and themselves making their own translations had nothing to do with each other from what I know, it was purely just a copyright infringement thing.
One of the things that has led to this situation in Fomos has been their lackluster SmartPhone App which was developed and released and it failed to meet expectations which then (I assume here) caused them to rethink what direction they want to go.
I have emailed and will try to get in contact with Fomos asking them about the situation about the Global section as SDM no longer has any ties to the site so.... I guess I will fill you guys in once I get a reply? If i get a reply...
ty for your effort in explaining to us what happened.
For the people trying to blame him as if he represents fomos, don't -.-, he is like Milkis, just the messenger.
On August 10 2011 04:03 DexVitality wrote: Ok just to clarify now that I have spoken with SuperDanielMan (Daniel Lee).
So I am sure as you all know that the Fomos international thing was all really spearheaded by SDM. I have since learned that in late July, SDM was released from his duties and both parties parted ways with mutual understanding that their views were different from each other and decided to move on.
This happened most likely when the posts stopped getting posted on the Global Section of Fomos. So as of right now, there is no activity in the Fomos Global Section until Fomos decides what to do with it, if they want to search for a replacement for SDM to run the site or to just stop the activity completely.
I just wanted to clear something up regarding the Foreign BW Community and this is just something from my view and things I have discussed with SDM on this topic.
The reason why Fomos asked TL to stop using their articles was because both parties made offers to each other and they did not come to an agreement and hence they told TL to stop using their articles. At the end of the day, Fomos is a business and it will conduct itself as so. They realized long ago that TL has taken and translated their articles without their permission, it was not until recently that they started to speak up on the matter (I don't know why they took so long but.. w/e).
Fomos telling TL to stop using their articles and themselves making their own translations had nothing to do with each other from what I know, it was purely just a copyright infringement thing.
One of the things that has led to this situation in Fomos has been their lackluster SmartPhone App which was developed and released and it failed to meet expectations which then (I assume here) caused them to rethink what direction they want to go.
I have emailed and will try to get in contact with Fomos asking them about the situation about the Global section as SDM no longer has any ties to the site so.... I guess I will fill you guys in once I get a reply? If i get a reply...
ty for your effort in explaining to us what happened.
For the people trying to blame him as if he represents fomos, don't -.-, he is like Milkis, just the messenger.
No Problem. I want to try to get Fomos back up and running getting out articles just like many of you I am sure. I see the potential in what they want to do but since they are new to the whole make our own International Site thing, there are some bumps along the way and they are just running into some hurdles they probably did not expect. You can say poor planning but I am sure they are trying, I can't see them putting in the time and effort to announce this stuff and not care about it.
I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not.
On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote: I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not.
After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms.
On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote: I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not.
After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms.
No, it's not. The main thing that disappoints me is that TL, a website that gets almost all of its work (including the staff writing) out of volunteers who work for free to support the community, takes such a possessive stance over sharing that work for the greater good of the community, whichever website it's read on.
Websites with far more valuable content, like Wikipedia for example, are willing to allow other sites to republish them with attribution, for the common good of everyone, but TL with this apparently petty and selfish attitude is limiting people. Granted, no one is missing out on anything desperately important, but still, I don't see the necessity.
Now, it's possible that there's an argument that I don't know about; for instance a projection that allowing Fomos to republish articles would result in a loss of needed ad revenue for Team Liquid. So I'm not accusing TL of anything; I'm just saying that the distinction is not very clear to me.
Probably a separate issue, but I seem to recall that TL had put out a cease and desist to Fomos when Fomos was republishing articles without attributing the sources. So perhaps that's tied up in TL's no republish stance.
On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote: I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not.
After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms.
No, it's not. The main thing that disappoints me is that TL, a website that gets almost all of its work (including the staff writing) out of volunteers who work for free to support the community, takes such a possessive stance over sharing that work for the greater good of the community, whichever website it's read on.
Websites with far more valuable content, like Wikipedia for example, are willing to allow other sites to republish them with attribution, for the common good of everyone, but TL with this apparently petty and selfish attitude is limiting people. Granted, no one is missing out on anything desperately important, but still, I don't see the necessity.
Now, it's possible that there's an argument that I don't know about; for instance a projection that allowing Fomos to republish articles would result in a loss of needed ad revenue for Team Liquid. So I'm not accusing TL of anything; I'm just saying that the distinction is not very clear to me.
Now, if I remember correctly, the main problem in trying to strike a deal was not this, but the fact that fomos was insistent on having translation quotas, which doesn't really mesh with TL's complete volunteer ideology. The idea that TL translators are forced to translate under contract was something they couldn't do, and thus the deal fell through.
On August 10 2011 09:28 xxpack09 wrote: Now, if I remember correctly, the main problem in trying to strike a deal was not this, but the fact that fomos was insistent on having translation quotas, which doesn't really mesh with TL's complete volunteer ideology. The idea that TL translators are forced to translate under contract was something they couldn't do, and thus the deal fell through.
I was going off the OP, which says
Fomos was not satisfied with these terms. It wanted permission to copy TL.net's original English content and republish it, unaltered and untranslated, on its own English language site. This was a request we could not accommodate. Direct English-to-English or Korean-to-Korean copying of core content is an entirely different matter than sharing translated content between readerships of differing languages, and was never an option for TL. If TL opened a Korean language site, we would not expect Fomos to give us permission to repost their Korean content there.
Fomos also suggested that TL.net meet a monthly quota of translated articles. [emphasis mine]
My understanding of the above is that Fomos' initial demand was for permission to republish content; when that was denied, they suggested the monthly quota as an alternative arrangement.
Have Koreans heard of Fair Use? Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. -- from wikipedia
On August 10 2011 13:44 maka.albarn wrote: Have Koreans heard of Fair Use? Fair use, a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work, is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test. -- from wikipedia
Fair use does not cover translating an entire news article. Nobody's arguing that, including TL.
On August 10 2011 04:03 DexVitality wrote: Ok just to clarify now that I have spoken with SuperDanielMan (Daniel Lee).
So I am sure as you all know that the Fomos international thing was all really spearheaded by SDM. I have since learned that in late July, SDM was released from his duties and both parties parted ways with mutual understanding that their views were different from each other and decided to move on.
This happened most likely when the posts stopped getting posted on the Global Section of Fomos. So as of right now, there is no activity in the Fomos Global Section until Fomos decides what to do with it, if they want to search for a replacement for SDM to run the site or to just stop the activity completely.
I just wanted to clear something up regarding the Foreign BW Community and this is just something from my view and things I have discussed with SDM on this topic.
The reason why Fomos asked TL to stop using their articles was because both parties made offers to each other and they did not come to an agreement and hence they told TL to stop using their articles. At the end of the day, Fomos is a business and it will conduct itself as so. They realized long ago that TL has taken and translated their articles without their permission, it was not until recently that they started to speak up on the matter (I don't know why they took so long but.. w/e).
Fomos telling TL to stop using their articles and themselves making their own translations had nothing to do with each other from what I know, it was purely just a copyright infringement thing.
One of the things that has led to this situation in Fomos has been their lackluster SmartPhone App which was developed and released and it failed to meet expectations which then (I assume here) caused them to rethink what direction they want to go.
I have emailed and will try to get in contact with Fomos asking them about the situation about the Global section as SDM no longer has any ties to the site so.... I guess I will fill you guys in once I get a reply? If i get a reply...
On August 10 2011 05:27 qrs wrote: I don't see why TL couldn't agree to let Fomos republish its original content, with attribution, of course. The distinction between translation and republishing is honestly not very clear to me: in either case, you're piggy-backing off someone else's work, whether you add to it or not.
After reading the opening post with the explanation, this is still not clear to you? I thought it was explained in crystal clear terms.
No, it's not. The main thing that disappoints me is that TL, a website that gets almost all of its work (including the staff writing) out of volunteers who work for free to support the community, takes such a possessive stance over sharing that work for the greater good of the community, whichever website it's read on.
Websites with far more valuable content, like Wikipedia for example, are willing to allow other sites to republish them with attribution, for the common good of everyone, but TL with this apparently petty and selfish attitude is limiting people. Granted, no one is missing out on anything desperately important, but still, I don't see the necessity.
Now, it's possible that there's an argument that I don't know about; for instance a projection that allowing Fomos to republish articles would result in a loss of needed ad revenue for Team Liquid. So I'm not accusing TL of anything; I'm just saying that the distinction is not very clear to me.
I'll have to agree with you with most of what you said here but at the end of the day it is TL's decision.
From what I know Fomos pays their staff and interviewers to go out and travel to ll the events. So if you were them and you see a foreign site taking the hard work they put into the articles and using them, you can see why they may not have liked it esp when they did not give permission for TL to use the articles but either way..... this issue has been talked about over and over, whatever has happened has happened we just have to respect both parties here and let it be done.
Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote: Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website.
On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote: Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website.
Right. That's probably why they stopped updating the global page back in July.
On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote: Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
They prolly care more about the site traffic they would get from the readers if all of the people from TL who read the translated articles actually read it from the FOMOS website.
Right. That's probably why they stopped updating the global page back in July.
Well it is not like they didn't try. Their translations were mediocre at best so it wasn't surprising that people stopped reading their articles. They probably also realized that the effort wasn't worth it to try and pull in the last remnants of the foreign BW community at this point in time.
On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote: Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
By this logic, it ought to be OK to publish unauthorized translations of books as well. Do you really believe that?
On August 17 2011 09:51 SichuanPanda wrote: Don't care what Fomos says reproducing a news article exactly as it originally was but in a different language and giving credit to the original creator is NOT by any means infringement. Especially when it is (typically of most Fomos articles showing up on TL) a forum user posting their own translation as a service to people who cannot read Korean.
By this logic, it ought to be OK to publish unauthorized translations of books as well. Do you really believe that?
It happens all the time with korean and japanese manga publication that's produced in their own language. They have a translated fan group who would translate those manga weekly in english and that's how the publication become more aware and famous, otherwise sometimes, people would never heard of them. And of course, the fan groups would delete or tell people to buy the actual manga when it actually does come out in English.
Same case with Korean dramas as there are so many fan translators and then when the official translation comes from the company, the fan translations back off.
Now, in this particular situation, it's tricky since first off, the usual fan sub team / translators would do everything voluntary and their group itself is not for profit and don't make any money. It's different with TL as they actually do make money. Second, I have doubts that even if TL can translate the articles that fomos will just copy what we translated and make it as their own without giving respectable credits as seen in the past.
Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet.
On August 21 2011 02:54 DexVitality wrote: Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet.
Then until Fomos Global is successfully active and up running, can TL translate interviews and articles while giving original source credit?
I mean it's not like you guys will translate them way later when it was up running and active and decided to translate months old of untranslated articles. That'll be silly for you and for everyone who cares about reading months old news.
If it's going to be a waste, might as well make the waste be worthwhile.
On August 21 2011 02:54 DexVitality wrote: Alright Guys, I guess since the topic of Fomos and its Content is in this thread I will just continue posting it here.
As of right now, I have been contacted by Fomos and they do have plans to continue their Global section which will include Translations and new reports on SCBW and SC2. However, with the loss of Daniel Lee, the site's Global Section progress has taken a pretty big blow and hence the inactivity on the site thus far. As far as I am aware, they are trying to get a replacement for what Daniel Lee did and so until then the Global site is pretty much put on hold although I believe articles should be posted soon in the near future, perhaps not Translations of interviews quite yet.
Then until Fomos Global is successfully active and up running, can TL translate interviews and articles while giving original source credit?
I mean it's not like you guys will translate them way later when it was up running and active and decided to translate months old of untranslated articles. That'll be silly for you and for everyone who cares about reading months old news.
If it's going to be a waste, might as well make the waste be worthwhile.
I really cannot speak for Fomos concerning their Korean articles I believe the agreement with TL on not using their content still stands... they are looking for translators now, maybe when I get in contact with them again I will mention this topic but I don't think anything will change.
Hi. I'm so sorry for bumping such a dead thread, but I just want to clarify something. Didn't think it really warranted a thread of its own, and this seemed like the most appropriate place to ask.
From what I understand, Fomos content is out of bounds for translation but DailyEsports content is ok for translation. However, I've seen several instances where both Fomos and DailyEsports post interviews of the same player. The main content is generally about the same, with several minor differences along the interview.
Any idea what this is about?
My guess is that there're reporters from both Fomos and DailyEsports at the same interview session, and the reporters have slightly different takes on the interview. In that case, is that ok for translation?
On August 13 2012 01:54 Weirdkid wrote: Hi. I'm so sorry for bumping such a dead thread, but I just want to clarify something. Didn't think it really warranted a thread of its own, and this seemed like the most appropriate place to ask.
From what I understand, Fomos content is out of bounds for translation but DailyEsports content is ok for translation. However, I've seen several instances where both Fomos and DailyEsports post interviews of the same player. The main content is generally about the same, with several minor differences along the interview.
Any idea what this is about?
My guess is that there're reporters from both Fomos and DailyEsports at the same interview session, and the reporters have slightly different takes on the interview. In that case, is that ok for translation?
DES one is okay.
I wonder if the ban still applies for Fomos, though.
Since when was paraphrasing a copy right infringement? There's no such thing as "Translating word for word" because most of the time it's impossible to directly translate every word, especially from an eastern language to a western language. I mean, I'm no lawyer, but that seems a little silly to me. Pictures, I understand, I suppose. But translating is basically summarizing which isn't copy right infringement as far as I know.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TG7HS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/userfiles/38697.jpg?1273422594)
![[image loading]](http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5688/52256088.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b7lPj.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NfB8P.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Zk6Q.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/etnvM.png)
chill guys~
