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On March 28 2011 18:12 Milkis wrote:
1) Basically suppose you have a map pool that is PvT imba. Protoss eliminates all the Terran so all we have left is a lot of PvZs. Basically it doesnt give you a good overall picture and it requires quite a number of samples, but maps change every individual league so you dont really have anything conclusive.
hmmm doesn't that mean sort of pull the statistics to extremes? if one map is really imba, then the stats will show it with a huge disparity in win rate, since there's a huge disparity + small sample size. however if a map is balanced, then there will be ~50% win rate + large sample size. so there's an exponential increase in "balance" as w/l stats approach 50%...? so assuming what i just said is true, FS is SUPER DUPER balanced? ^^
anyways thanks for the awesome graphs! and for the impromptu lesson in stats. =D
[kekeke more editing] "What I mean is yes, Fighting Spirit "looks" more balanced than others, but I'm more curious if there are correlations between these kinds of patterns, mirror matches, etc. " this also seems fairly easy to graph; distance of MU from 50% vs. # of mirror matches (for race that was mirrored the most). but this seems like a really obvious positive correlation. lol
also i suppose you could throw in stats for # of times each MU is played, i.e. distance of MU from 50% vs. # of times each MU is played. i predict... negative correlation? =P
GOD this problem is interesting to think about. i need to go back to hw.
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Anyone want to explain to me how TvP is so Protoss-skewed? I fucking hate playing that map as Terran. Protoss has such an easy time taking a third, and I have a hard-as-balls time taking a third.
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Haha, the ones for Python and Andromeda... why am I not surprised. xD
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I'd really like to see a graph for Circuit breaker, the map seem fairly balance (TvZ 50.8%, ZvP 51.1%, PvT 53.3%) yet it can be interesting to see how the matches lead to such a fast equilbrium in the match-ups.
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On March 28 2011 20:32 DTK-m2 wrote:
Anyone want to explain to me how TvP is so Protoss-skewed? I fucking hate playing that map as Terran. Protoss has such an easy time taking a third, and I have a hard-as-balls time taking a third.
Which map, HBR?
HBR has a hard third for the Terran, but an easy fourth and fifth. That's pretty threatening for Protoss, on a map with only 6 bases that Protoss can ever take, one of which is indefensible after Terran takes his mineral-only fourth.
As a consequence, Protoss has to play aggressively enough that either Protoss gets to mine out both corners, or Terran can never take center. Fortunately for Toss, they get an early advantage (long rush distance + hard third for Terran) so they can afford to play it aggressive.
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On March 28 2011 21:02 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 20:32 DTK-m2 wrote:
Anyone want to explain to me how TvP is so Protoss-skewed? I fucking hate playing that map as Terran. Protoss has such an easy time taking a third, and I have a hard-as-balls time taking a third. Which map, HBR? HBR has a hard third for the Terran, but an easy fourth and fifth. That's pretty threatening for Protoss, on a map with only 6 bases that Protoss can ever take, one of which is indefensible after Terran takes his mineral-only fourth. As a consequence, Protoss has to play aggressively enough that either Protoss gets to mine out both corners, or Terran can never take center. Fortunately for Toss, they get an early advantage (long rush distance + hard third for Terran) so they can afford to play it aggressive.
HAHA WHOOPS. Forgot to say which map. I was talking about Python. Protoss takes one of the other mains by making a wall with 2 pylons and a forge, and Terran can't take one of those mains because it's so out of the way.
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Outsider my favorite map :O
fairly balanced towards the end except TvZ...I play Z so mehz.
outsider <3
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What about an aggregate racial balance chart, so we can see overall map balance over time (or was that already done before)?
On March 28 2011 21:57 DTK-m2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 21:02 Severedevil wrote:On March 28 2011 20:32 DTK-m2 wrote:
Anyone want to explain to me how TvP is so Protoss-skewed? I fucking hate playing that map as Terran. Protoss has such an easy time taking a third, and I have a hard-as-balls time taking a third. Which map, HBR? HBR has a hard third for the Terran, but an easy fourth and fifth. That's pretty threatening for Protoss, on a map with only 6 bases that Protoss can ever take, one of which is indefensible after Terran takes his mineral-only fourth. As a consequence, Protoss has to play aggressively enough that either Protoss gets to mine out both corners, or Terran can never take center. Fortunately for Toss, they get an early advantage (long rush distance + hard third for Terran) so they can afford to play it aggressive. HAHA WHOOPS. Forgot to say which map. I was talking about Python. Protoss takes one of the other mains by making a wall with 2 pylons and a forge, and Terran can't take one of those mains because it's so out of the way.
Yeah the TvP stats on python have always confused me. Unfortunately I can barely find any TLPD vods on python now that the Jon747 account was killed.
But you should know that T>P on close pos, and P>T on far pos. Far pos is impossible for T 2 base push, and thus super easy for a toss third. Late game map architecture also favors toss.
But T is equally greater than P on close pos due to super fast push distance and free third along the push distance. Games would end early.
Maybe the skew towards terran comes on mid pos (close air), but I'd have to see the vods to be sure of that. I also remember more 2 fact strats being used during that era, so maybe poor protoss response to this was another factor. Yeah, I really wish I could see the vods t.t
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
I <3 statistics.
In honor of ISL, can we get one for Hitchhiker? XD
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On March 28 2011 17:57 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 17:54 Crunchums wrote:
yeah, I actually think that the best statistic for map balance is the % of the time each race was sent out on the map during proleague
i'm sure you could do even better if you did something like account for the racial composition of the entire proscene / teams / consider the race requirement Yeah but that's also kind of hard cause some teams have "more zergs" than others etc. Winner's League also throws a lot of stuff off too since it operates kind of differently. It's something to look at in the future though, although I was planning on taking the noob easy way out and just fixed effects it and just look at coefficients in the long run to determine map balance.
Winner's league games should be thrown out when considering usage rates for obvious reasons. I would also throw out all ace match games as well; while individual games might support a certain argument (eg KT not sending Flash for an ace match on a map support that being bad for terran) I don't think KT sending Flash or Oz sending Jaedong on a certain map says much about the map's balance.
You can also account racial differences inherent in the scene by not just comparing the data to a naive baseline of 50%. The data will actually be more useful not that matches are Bo7 too, which is nice.
There are still flaws (eg if a team gets 4-0'd we lose 2 games) but if you are doing a statistics based analysis of map balance I think it is the best approach.
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Croatia9530 Posts
Neat! 
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is it possible to see the stats overall from 06 till now
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On March 28 2011 22:10 ReketSomething wrote:
Outsider my favorite map :O
fairly balanced towards the end except TvZ...I play Z so mehz.
outsider <3
Outsider is such a badass map. It gives both players so many options!
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On March 28 2011 18:01 Cedstick wrote:
There's no WAY Toss are losing to Terran that much on Python. Am I looking at this thing backwards?
Vulture play is REALLY strong on Python
Tornado terran is amazingly powerful, the open field leaves so much room for vultures to roam about and the long distances between bases keep the dragoons running
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my love goes to fighting spirit. I LOVE that map 8D
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On March 29 2011 05:09 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 18:01 Cedstick wrote:
There's no WAY Toss are losing to Terran that much on Python. Am I looking at this thing backwards? Vulture play is REALLY strong on Python Tornado terran is amazingly powerful, the open field leaves so much room for vultures to roam about and the long distances between bases keep the dragoons running
Man, that python graph is super surprising... I've always felt tvp on python was ridiculously annoying for terran: easy to flank, hard third, while tvp on fs was much more bearable.
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On March 29 2011 05:37 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 05:09 xxpack09 wrote:On March 28 2011 18:01 Cedstick wrote:
There's no WAY Toss are losing to Terran that much on Python. Am I looking at this thing backwards? Vulture play is REALLY strong on Python Tornado terran is amazingly powerful, the open field leaves so much room for vultures to roam about and the long distances between bases keep the dragoons running Man, that python graph is super surprising... I've always felt tvp on python was ridiculously annoying for terran: easy to flank, hard third, while tvp on fs was much more bearable.
The third isn't that hard if you take a mineral only.
Plus, you can defend your 3rd very well simply by forcing his goons to be constantly on the defensive
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On March 29 2011 01:23 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 17:57 Milkis wrote:On March 28 2011 17:54 Crunchums wrote:
yeah, I actually think that the best statistic for map balance is the % of the time each race was sent out on the map during proleague
i'm sure you could do even better if you did something like account for the racial composition of the entire proscene / teams / consider the race requirement Yeah but that's also kind of hard cause some teams have "more zergs" than others etc. Winner's League also throws a lot of stuff off too since it operates kind of differently. It's something to look at in the future though, although I was planning on taking the noob easy way out and just fixed effects it and just look at coefficients in the long run to determine map balance. Winner's league games should be thrown out when considering usage rates for obvious reasons. I would also throw out all ace match games as well; while individual games might support a certain argument (eg KT not sending Flash for an ace match on a map support that being bad for terran) I don't think KT sending Flash or Oz sending Jaedong on a certain map says much about the map's balance. You can also account racial differences inherent in the scene by not just comparing the data to a naive baseline of 50%. The data will actually be more useful not that matches are Bo7 too, which is nice. There are still flaws (eg if a team gets 4-0'd we lose 2 games) but if you are doing a statistics based analysis of map balance I think it is the best approach. If you reject the premise of player skill being equal for all three races(which is the reasoning for not including WL or ace matches or whatever) then that also implies that no statistics at all can reflect the map balance
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I think it's pretty cool how the graphs evens out on almost all maps (ofc there are some exceptions. Polaris rhapsody lol.)
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I've always hated PvT on Python, I found it quite hard because the play-style is much different than newer macro maps (far third and very open, circuit breakers is a little more similar play-wise). I find it funny how the stats show it that terran favoured when so many terrans complain that it's protoss imba 
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EPT
