EPT![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/FightingSpirit.png)
TvZ/ZvP/PvT stats on maps over time
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Milkis
5003 Posts
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
Heartbreak Ridge ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/Heartbreak.png) Match Point ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/Match%20Point.png) | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:32 Catch]22 wrote: Wow that is pretty cool, would be neat to see one for Destination too. ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/destination.png) Also Polaris Rhapsody ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/Polaris.png) screw that map | ||
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milikan
United States67 Posts
i guess you have a program that yanks out the stats per map and graphs it? | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:38 milikan wrote: are these stats all collected using tlpd? i guess you have a program that yanks out the stats per map and graphs it? These are stats from TLPD, all the "standard" leagues and only counting progames in Korea judgment day ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/judgment.png) Outsider ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/outsider.png) | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
Thank God Fighting Spirit became the new Python, could you do one for python? Would be neat to compare them too. | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:42 Catch]22 wrote: Whoa, knew Desti was bad for T, not that bad :S neat! Thank God Fighting Spirit became the new Python, could you do one for python? Would be neat to compare them too. ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/Python.png) Wow python wow | ||
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milikan
United States67 Posts
could graph balance over time, but i think that would be random. map makers come up with new concepts, and it seems like they care more about creativity than balance. which i kinda like! [edit] in the sidebar, i saw the title "race relations..." and i thought this was a post on human race relations. thats how it caught my attention. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
sadly i don't think there are very many maps with a large enough sample size for those graphs to mean much, but they are still fun to look at hopefully FS will come back during PL playoffs ( <3 FS ) | ||
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:47 milikan wrote: suggestion for next "program": compare the distance of the values for the winrates from 50% for each map as a way to measure balance, then find the most balanced map since 2006. ^^ could graph balance over time, but i think that would be random. map makers come up with new concepts, and it seems like they care more about creativity than balance. which i kinda like! Eh, it's honestly not that simple cause there's a lot of selection bias going into the maps. Think of it this way 1) in individual leagues races that are bad at certain maps are knocked out quickly (sup ZvZ MSL) 2) in proleague, people will send out races that supposedly are "good" at certain maps. So in order to measure balance you also have to calc the mirror matches and stuff like that, and that alone makes it a bit more interesting. IE: Map stats (at least win rates) alone don't tell you jack about balance. The reason I made these graphs are to show how certain maps really are quite good like Fighting Spirit since it actually seems to converge to close to 50% for some reason, so it's a good overall signal. Of course it could also be the fact that FS has a ton of games, probably more so than any map. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
i'm sure you could do even better if you did something like account for the racial composition of the entire proscene / teams / consider the race requirement | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
[edit] in the sidebar, i saw the title "race relations..." and i thought this was a post on human race relations. thats how it caught my attention. Yeah that was all planned :D On March 28 2011 17:48 Crunchums wrote: wuthering heights? battle royale? raid assault? sadly i don't think there are very many maps with a large enough sample size for those graphs to mean much, but they are still fun to look at hopefully FS will come back during PL playoffs ( <3 FS ) These don't have enough points cause I was going to do something else and so i made the dataset with only data from 2006 onwards :D;;; On March 28 2011 17:54 Crunchums wrote: yeah, I actually think that the best statistic for map balance is the % of the time each race was sent out on the map during proleague i'm sure you could do even better if you did something like account for the racial composition of the entire proscene / teams / consider the race requirement Yeah but that's also kind of hard cause some teams have "more zergs" than others etc. Winner's League also throws a lot of stuff off too since it operates kind of differently. It's something to look at in the future though, although I was planning on taking the noob easy way out and just fixed effects it and just look at coefficients in the long run to determine map balance. | ||
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:01 Cedstick wrote: There's no WAY Toss are losing to Terran that much on Python. Am I looking at this thing backwards? Nope, you're looking at it correctly  Rush Hour 3 ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/rushhour3.png) Andromeda ![[image loading]](http://www.whitecosmos.com/tlimg/maps/Andromeda.png) | ||
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milikan
United States67 Posts
On March 28 2011 17:51 Milkis wrote: Eh, it's honestly not that simple cause there's a lot of selection bias going into the maps. Think of it this way 1) in individual leagues races that are bad at certain maps are knocked out quickly (sup ZvZ MSL) 2) in proleague, people will send out races that supposedly are "good" at certain maps. So in order to measure balance you also have to calc the mirror matches and stuff like that, and that alone makes it a bit more interesting. IE: Map stats (at least win rates) alone don't tell you jack about balance. The reason I made these graphs are to show how certain maps really are quite good like Fighting Spirit since it actually seems to converge to close to 50% for some reason, so it's a good overall signal. Of course it could also be the fact that FS has a ton of games, probably more so than any map. 1) won't that show up in the w/l stats, as one matchup will be skewed for that map? or does that mean sample size will be too small? 2) do you mean that a lot of mirrors are played thus leading to a smaller sample size? in general i dont see a problem with using w/l stats as a general measure of balance; obviously its not going to be perfect, but as rough guildline i don't see why not. balance makes it easier for one race to win vs. another, so spread over a large sample size, shouldn't that be reflected in the w/l stats? "The reason I made these graphs are to show how certain maps really are quite good like Fighting Spirit since it actually seems to converge to close to 50% for some reason, so it's a good overall signal." this point seems to agree with what im trying to argue; that a 50% w/l ratio for all MUs infers a balanced/good map. unless "balanced" doesnt equate to "good"? [woo more editing] i wonder what you could do with access to iccup stats. the difference amongst player ranks (D to A) would be pretty interesting, just for starters! | ||
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Milkis
5003 Posts
On March 28 2011 18:05 milikan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 28 2011 17:51 Milkis wrote: Eh, it's honestly not that simple cause there's a lot of selection bias going into the maps. Think of it this way 1) in individual leagues races that are bad at certain maps are knocked out quickly (sup ZvZ MSL) 2) in proleague, people will send out races that supposedly are "good" at certain maps. So in order to measure balance you also have to calc the mirror matches and stuff like that, and that alone makes it a bit more interesting. IE: Map stats (at least win rates) alone don't tell you jack about balance. The reason I made these graphs are to show how certain maps really are quite good like Fighting Spirit since it actually seems to converge to close to 50% for some reason, so it's a good overall signal. Of course it could also be the fact that FS has a ton of games, probably more so than any map. 1) won't that show up in the w/l stats, as one matchup will be skewed for that map? or does that mean sample size will be too small? 2) do you mean that a lot of mirrors are played thus leading to a smaller sample size? in general i dont see a problem with using w/l stats as a general measure of balance; obviously its not going to be perfect, but as rough guildline i don't see why not. balance makes it easier for one race to win vs. another, so spread over a large sample size, shouldn't that be reflected in the w/l stats? "The reason I made these graphs are to show how certain maps really are quite good like Fighting Spirit since it actually seems to converge to close to 50% for some reason, so it's a good overall signal." this point seems to agree with what im trying to argue; that a 50% w/l ratio for all MUs infers a balanced/good map. unless "balanced" doesnt equate to "good"? 1) Basically suppose you have a map pool that is PvT imba. Protoss eliminates all the Terran so all we have left is a lot of PvZs. Basically it doesnt give you a good overall picture and it requires quite a number of samples, but maps change every individual league so you dont really have anything conclusive. 2) For example, let's say, Battle Royale or Central Plains. You do a test like that on those maps, you're likely not going to get significance if you only use W/L ratio cause there weren't many other types of matches, but the number of mirror matches there let us know how "imbalanced" the map is. It also skews the sample, cause the other races going into those maps probably has something crazy prepared. What I mean is yes, Fighting Spirit "looks" more balanced than others, but I'm more curious if there are correlations between these kinds of patterns, mirror matches, etc. Anyway sleeping now. Will do more requests tomorrow i guess | ||
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Amnesia
United States3818 Posts
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