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On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote:Thing is,  ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than  great and this fact may  Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
pshhhh Zero's hive tech aint great
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Great article, looking forward to both ZvZ series.
On February 07 2011 14:19 hacklebeast wrote:
zergling
Oh the zergling. It does everything for zerg short of flying. It serves the high dps role of the marine, the protect the ranged unit role of the zealot, the minefield/tank fire drawing role of the zealot, and even the “oh shit I’m losing bad, let’s just send some guys into their base and hope they don’t notice” role of the DT. That’s not to mention that they cost 25 minerals each and can transform into a cloud that makes your units invincible to most others.
I LOL, I really did.
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On February 07 2011 20:13 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote:Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo. pshhhh Zero's hive tech aint great
But great's pre-hive zvz is zero.
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Wow this is an awesome analysis! I actually dont mind the ro4 so much because of the split the way it does. On one side is good mechanics and on the other side, fucked up late game ZvZ
also interesting how great never instigates (except against jaedong) Also having queens and devourers dominate that much more is so surprising O_O
some things to mention: when parasited the other guy always kills the unit. (like the mutalisk thats parasited)
nice analysis  add some pictures and this would be even better! its surpising i read the whole thing ^^
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On February 07 2011 19:53 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 17:19 hacklebeast wrote:
I JUST REALIZED THAT I PUT RO8 NOT R04
damn it you know whats worse...none of us pointed that out 
Haha exactly. I was half confused at first, but I got lost in the nice article to really dwell on that trifle.
Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
shouldn't 1000 minearls and gas be 10 mutalisks and not 5?
interesting writeu p
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On February 07 2011 21:05 alffla wrote:shouldn't 1000 minearls and gas be 10 mutalisks and not 5? interesting writeu p
1000 minerals and gas = roughly 500 minerals and 500 gas = 5 mutalisks.
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On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote:
Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead
Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!!
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On February 07 2011 21:31 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote:
Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5! A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!!
Why do you hate hydras? It is the lynchpin unit that makes Hive ZvZ possible. It forces the battle down and with good control would be terrible for mutadevourer.
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On February 07 2011 21:51 whiterabb1t wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 21:31 hacklebeast wrote:On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote:
Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5! A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!! Why do you hate hydras? It is the lynchpin unit that makes Hive ZvZ possible. It forces the battle down and with good control would be terrible for mutadevourer.
I expressed that they are essential for moving the battle from ground to air, I was just trying to show that I felt Great's strategy was flawed. The explosive damage just makes them garbage for fighting against lings, and they can’t fight lurkers or ultralisk, especially with swarm They can't even serve their primary role (as a hard counter to mutalisks) without defilers and the high APM to use them corectly, again due to the explosive damage. After a while I just liked adding "terrible" in front of hydralisk whether it made sense contextually or not.
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Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
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On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote:Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
Poor Zero, overshadowed by some 0-2 SC2 player. The TLPD-ize function is becoming less useful by the day 
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On February 07 2011 23:45 Mortality wrote:
Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling.
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On February 08 2011 01:27 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote:Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo. Poor Zero, overshadowed by some 0-2 SC2 player. The TLPD-ize function is becoming less useful by the day
Even worse, tlpd-ize function understands the word zero written in BW forums as an insignificant sc2 player instead of one of my favorite players (after SKT Zergs ofc )
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One of the ZerO vs Great games they both seemed to be intent on Lurker/swarm as the game changing unit. To become invincible vs anything except Ultralisks is certainly quite good, if you imagine having them backed with with lings from the probable mineral surplus you'll have. So i certainly think you underestimate them. The only true 100% counter to it is broodling, but you can probably make more lurkers and more swarms/lings/defilers by the time theres enough energy for enough broodlings.
The whole queen swarm concept is a really interesting idea that would be awesome to see. Instant sniping of defilers with broodling could render the lurkers fairly useless in the first place, so hydra/queen with good micro and retreating when needed could work instead. It's just a shame hydras are just generally a bit crap vs every unit except lurker and i suppose ultra. Parasite is pretty cheap and probably quite annoying if you parasite ultras. I noticed it seemed like Great decided to sunk/spore up the naturals like crazy like in a ZvP lategame, makes sense too, i think mass hydra/dropping would be better than throwing ling/ultra at a choke like that.
The whole lategame matchup is really interesting and unexplored, it's a shame there's not a map which somehow makes it standardized without affecting balance on other matchups (good luck trying to do that!). Unfortunately i have a feeling this whole RO4 is going to turn out to be typical ZvZ with no one wanting to go for the Hive unless forced into it or far ahead. Unless Jaedong has found an ultimate new ZvZ build skipping mutas for Queen/Scourge and ensnaring and killing off whole flocks with crazy micro skills :D
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
i will rofl if this ends up in all the games being 9pool vs 12hatch bo wins. T_T
Seriously - nice work! What a pleasure to read such an analysis, really makes one look forward to these semifinals very much.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
Interesting analysis, but I'm wondering how many of the games will actually get to hive tech, if any. The whole post reminded me of those super complex scientific theories that only work under a very specific set of conditions: "If A and B and C and D are true, then we MAY see cool phenomenon X." I would absolutely love it if we saw multiple hive games (especially since I'll be casting this live), but I won't hold my breath.
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Thanks for the write up, I will watch/rewatch the games you cite.
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threads like this compound why I love BW so much.. its so FUCKING AMAZING
EDIT: Thanks for the epic write-up and adding to the hype of the upcoming ZvZs. I personally am very excited for the matches and although I feel like ZvZs can be somewhat repetitious as far as BOs, and they're generally over after the first big battle (sounds like sc2? lol), that they're an intense micro battle which I find amazing
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Nice write-up, I'm not a Zerg user but it was interesting to read nonetheless.
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EPT
