EPTAlso, I'd just like to echo the general resentment against your treatment of the Hydralisk. They're far more crucial to the Hive tech transition than you might think, because the Spore building means that you don't need as much larva for Mutas, which means more Drones, thus more minerals, thus Hydras are a better option because of sheer production capability. They're also far better than Mutas when combined with Zerglings at holding the line during attacks than you give them credit for.
Analysis of the MSL Ro4 - Page 3
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Also, I'd just like to echo the general resentment against your treatment of the Hydralisk. They're far more crucial to the Hive tech transition than you might think, because the Spore building means that you don't need as much larva for Mutas, which means more Drones, thus more minerals, thus Hydras are a better option because of sheer production capability. They're also far better than Mutas when combined with Zerglings at holding the line during attacks than you give them credit for. | ||
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On February 08 2011 05:23 Mystlord wrote: I'm not so sure that there's a way of predicting whether the game will go to Hive tech other than 1) looking at the Spore count and 2) Looking at mistakes that either player made. The entire reason why ZvZ games always end in the midgame is because the +1 Mutalisk+Scourge timing is so devastating against any player trying to Hive tech. There's just no way to stop it without building a bunch of Spores, but no one would reasonably build Spores in the first place unless he was behind by a ton, because then the other player just out expands the Spore-building player and wins. The reason why the person is behind might vary a bit, but Hive tech ZvZ is a rare occurrence for a reason. Also, I'd just like to echo the general resentment against your treatment of the Hydralisk. They're far more crucial to the Hive tech transition than you might think, because the Spore building means that you don't need as much larva for Mutas, which means more Drones, thus more minerals, thus Hydras are a better option because of sheer production capability. They're also far better than Mutas when combined with Zerglings at holding the line during attacks than you give them credit for. I thought that too when I first started to watch the games, but they seem to suggest other wise. As I said, the instigator had an economic lead every time that hive tech was achieved, and were only lacking in tech with a later spire. having the other player just expand while you tech is a real threat and did happen in most of the game (I can't remember how many off the top of my head but I'm guessing 4-5). And that expansion did win the game for Great a few time, but zero was able to counter it by allowing it to establish and then just killing it with a superior air force in his games. And I am going to edit the OP about the hydralisk. I did say that they were the most important part (when coupled with swarm) in bringing the battle to the ground, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. I can see how you would end up with more minerals, but investing those in zerglings or another hatch is a better option. I agree that they are better than mutalisks at holding a position. They are also better than drones scourge on overlords. But it is not the role of those four units to hold lines, and ultralurkerling is a far better option, even before adding swarm. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:37 hacklebeast wrote: I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling. We must be talking about different things since you're bringing up BGH. In Hive tech ZvZ situations (which I already said...) you don't want to try to get too cute with muta micro against hydras because of ensnare and plague, not to mention that muta flocks start becoming a little difficult even for progamers to manage in late game situations (see Yellow vs Jaedong -- I almost though Yellow was going to throw his victory with the way his muta flocks kept coming apart). I already said in my first post that muta stacking has made a hydra opening suicidal, but I guess you weren't paying attention. Until muta stacking, it was actually still viable even at A rank level on PGTour (as Day[9] proved by actually doing it and by other top players like Xiaozi and Satanik who frequently used them against top foreigners), but these days I do not think it is. But even when it was viable, your notion about how muta vs hydra plays out seems to be based on D rank knowledge. You're going to keep your hydras tight to your base and have some vision outside of them so that you can react in time if mutas start moving in. It's really not hard. Also, yes until you get upgrades hydras are difficult, but if you're using them heavily you will OBVIOUSLY upgrade them. If you're planning on using them in a hive tech situation, you may even start on upgrades before even making any hydras. And unless he's been matching upgrades with his lings (and if he's been concentrating on his muta flock then he hasn't) and you've been failing to use terrain advantageously and attacking at the wrong timings, hydras are going to be hell on wheels for him to deal with. But even if we are talking early game -- which, again, you would not be inclined to do against modern micro -- you would only go hydras in a situation where you have an economic advantage. He's going to rush for lair tech because any competent Zerg knows that if your build is economically disadvantageous you need lair tech first. And while he's doing that, you're going to be thinking "fuck mutas" and ignoring it completely, starting upgrades on hydras as soon as you plop down your evo chamber, upgrading carapace first because it makes it much more difficult for mutas and lings to hurt your hydras. As for hydras being a muscle unit... the definition of muscle unit has nothing to do with 1-1 attack strength and everything to do with how you use them. There's a huge distinction there that you ought to familiarize yourself with. | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On February 08 2011 11:06 Mortality wrote: We must be talking about different things since you're bringing up BGH. In Hive tech ZvZ situations (which I already said...) you don't want to try to get too cute with muta micro against hydras because of ensnare and plague, not to mention that muta flocks start becoming a little difficult even for progamers to manage in late game situations (see Yellow vs Jaedong -- I almost though Yellow was going to throw his victory with the way his muta flocks kept coming apart). I already said in my first post that muta stacking has made a hydra opening suicidal, but I guess you weren't paying attention. Until muta stacking, it was actually still viable even at A rank level on PGTour (as Day[9] proved by actually doing it and by other top players like Xiaozi and Satanik who frequently used them against top foreigners), but these days I do not think it is. But even when it was viable, your notion about how muta vs hydra plays out seems to be based on D rank knowledge. You're going to keep your hydras tight to your base and have some vision outside of them so that you can react in time if mutas start moving in. It's really not hard. Also, yes until you get upgrades hydras are difficult, but if you're using them heavily you will OBVIOUSLY upgrade them. If you're planning on using them in a hive tech situation, you may even start on upgrades before even making any hydras. And unless he's been matching upgrades with his lings (and if he's been concentrating on his muta flock then he hasn't) and you've been failing to use terrain advantageously and attacking at the wrong timings, hydras are going to be hell on wheels for him to deal with. But even if we are talking early game -- which, again, you would not be inclined to do against modern micro -- you would only go hydras in a situation where you have an economic advantage. He's going to rush for lair tech because any competent Zerg knows that if your build is economically disadvantageous you need lair tech first. And while he's doing that, you're going to be thinking "fuck mutas" and ignoring it completely, starting upgrades on hydras as soon as you plop down your evo chamber, upgrading carapace first because it makes it much more difficult for mutas and lings to hurt your hydras. As for hydras being a muscle unit... the definition of muscle unit has nothing to do with 1-1 attack strength and everything to do with how you use them. There's a huge distinction there that you ought to familiarize yourself with. You've been talking about early game hydras? At least I think you've been talking about early game. I think we are in agreement. Hydras are a stupid idea in the early game (they might have been viable years ago, but we are talking about zero vs great, so it is irrelevant), and mutalisks lose effectiveness when there are too many to properly micro. although I am still confused by your definition of a "muscle unit". please enlighten me. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
I just can't seem to get excited about this at all. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7498 Posts
On February 08 2011 11:32 meegrean wrote: Summary: Two ZvZ semifinals in any tournament is just boring. I just can't seem to get excited about this at all. We have the tryant, the hive tech zvz zerg, the other hive tech zvz zerg and mr.standard. I think the differing temperaments of each of the zergs will help save some of the boredom of a zvz final. My only regret is that I am not confident in Jaedong. His last 10 games have just been so ... blah. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On February 08 2011 11:29 hacklebeast wrote: You've been talking about early game hydras? At least I think you've been talking about early game. I think we are in agreement. Hydras are a stupid idea in the early game (they might have been viable years ago, but we are talking about zero vs great, so it is irrelevant), and mutalisks lose effectiveness when there are too many to properly micro. although I am still confused by your definition of a "muscle unit". please enlighten me. I've been talking about all aspects of hydra ZvZ. I mentioned early game a lot as well as late game. A muscle unit is one you power up and shove directly down their throat. Lings aren't muscle units. You only shove them down your opponent's throat if you are going all-in on a ling break. Otherwise you're using them tactically. Harass, scout, punish him for spreading himself too thin, etc. Barring ling breaks, the closest they get to "muscle" is working in conjunction with other units like ling/lurk ZvT or ling/ultra ZvP, but without the combination their effectiveness decreases exponentially. And if your opponent knows you're using mass lings in mid/late game situations, just a couple of lurkers will completely destroy you. Mutas aren't designed to be a muscle unit but end up getting used as one anyway. They are built for harassment, but since air control is so central to ZvZ you end up powering them, which forces them to be your muscle unit. But they are still delicate. Queen ensnare, devourer acid spore, and defiler plague/swarm utterly cripple their effectiveness. In hive tech situations, you have to be really, really careful with them. Just clumping them into a ball and attack moving is so bad that you can get slaughtered by an army a fraction the size of yours. Hydras are a muscle unit. In small numbers they suck. Same for goons with Protoss, another muscle unit. But an upgraded blob consisting of a sufficient number of hydras is a nightmare. Individually the damage isn't great against Zerg, but the relatively high HP, cheap cost, decent range and high rate of fire make them effective when powered. You'd be shocked, SHOCKED, by what a sufficient blob of hydras will do to mass ling, not even counting that if he's gone that tech route it's no sweat to add 2-3 lurkers to the mix. Trying to use swarm with lings will prevent you from using mutas, won't help if he tosses in lurkers, and ignores the speed at which hydras can retreat from swarm. The problem that Terrans have with swarm is that they need stim to escape it, but hydras are faster than unstimmed marines. And a single queen combined with his hydra blob will do a hell of a number on your mutas. He'll pretty much just walk over you with attack move... unless your economic position is truly superior. Queens effect muta rate of fire more than hydra rate of fire and ensnare grabs a lot more of them. Not to mention that plague grabs a lot more mutas than hydras as well and it's easier to protect your defilers with a hydra army and that dark swarm remains useful. The biggest problem with hydras is that if you try to go them from the start then your opponent won't let you get critical mass until he's got a very strong economic position. As a transition unit in the hive tech game, this fatal flaw is not an issue. The catch is that you need to plan this transition so that upgrades occur at the correct timings. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals. tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is wrong because his unique (early) switch to hydras if given the chance begins before he goes hive. This goes even with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before hive as well (although he's stopped doing this as often). | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On February 08 2011 13:09 koreasilver wrote: I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on lair tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best. I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals. tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is horribly wrong because his unique way of playing the matchup if given the chance begins before he goes hive. Same with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before lair as well (although he's stopped doing this as often). It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly. I think that we can say that great's unconventional play is hive tech because he never gets den before hive, and starts to amass hydralisks. Every time Great built a den, he was simultaneously building two mounds. I truly think that defilers are necessary to use hydralisks. While great and zero are known for prehive units, there are still no examples of either using these units before hive. (zero does technically get queens before hive, but at the time the first two queens hatch, the hive is morphing). Please show me a game that shows otherwise and to continue the conversation with Mortality: I'm still not sure about "muscle units" (buy that argument carriers are a muscle unit because you build them almost exclusively and then just go and kill a terran) but I feel that it is irrelevant to the discussion, so let's just drop it. Assuming we allow our opponent to build up a critical mass of hydralisks (unlikely), I think you are overlooking the power of the dark swarm. The lings don't need mutalisk support (by the time that the opponent gets this critical mass of hydralisk, the game is lost if you haven't transitioned to the ground, so I doubt that a substantial amount of the population will be tied up in the air anyway) if they are invincible while under the swarm. Yes the hydralisks can flee from the swarm, but they are slower than stimed marines, and we still see stimed marines get trapped under swarms consistently. And there is no way hydralisks are getting through a choke with a control group of cracklings and swarm. The defiler can even continuously replenish the swam because the natural hatchery is right next to it. Regardless of how many hydralisks, it just cant be done. I agree that lurkers can be scary, but we don't need a huge supply of hydralisks to morph 4 lurkers, just use them like in traditional ZvT. | ||
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Doughboy
United States721 Posts
On February 08 2011 13:41 hacklebeast wrote: It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly. iirc, in ZerO vs Hyun on fighting spirit, in response to ZerO's Muta Devourer Queen having moderate but not game winning success, Hyun abandons mutas and goes for hydras with late mounds. Instead of taking the fight to the ground, ZerO morphs guards and basically starts pushing towards Hyun's main/nat after many more skirmishes :u | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
When hydras are being used as a transition unit, the picture changes since now you're trying to attain map control over a player who opened ling/muta and therefore shares your mobility and already has 2+ bases with moderate to high level drone saturation and minimum of 3 hatcheries. Dollar for dollar, hydras become incredibly valuable. Great knows this and it's a huge part of why his hive tech play is so damn good. Ling/lurk/swarm is sure as fuck not a counter to it. Even ignoring the fact that he can make just 2-3 lurkers as support to completely counter your lings (and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it) you're already talking about giving up air control because of your nonsensical belief that hydras are a "hard counter" to mutas meaning he only needs 1 group of mutas to snipe your defilers, making them worthless except as what, a defensive unit? Not to mention that broodlings can be used against defilers and that he's likely to go queen anyway to help control the problem of your mutas. Hydras are not the counter to mutas -- spells are. Not to mention... you're giving up map control to the player with hydras? Are you nuts? The key to hydras has always been to rely on mobility. For that you need both lings and mutas. If you have to think defensively against hydras, you've already lost. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On February 08 2011 14:06 Doughboy wrote: iirc, in ZerO vs Hyun on fighting spirit, in response to ZerO's Muta Devourer Queen having moderate but not game winning success, Hyun abandons mutas and goes for hydras with late mounds. Instead of taking the fight to the ground, ZerO morphs guards and basically starts pushing towards Hyun's main/nat after many more skirmishes :u Guards in conjunction with your usual ling/muta is the hive tech response to hydras. The problem with it is that it's very gas demanding and lings aren't valuable en masse. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
Honestly, we don't seem to be getting anywhere. If you feel differently feel free to PM me, but there is nothing more I can say and I don't think you have anything else either. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On February 08 2011 13:41 hacklebeast wrote: It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly. I think that we can say that great's unconventional play is hive tech because he never gets den before hive, and starts to amass hydralisks. Every time Great built a den, he was simultaneously building two mounds. I truly think that defilers are necessary to use hydralisks. While great and zero are known for prehive units, there are still no examples of either using these units before hive. (zero does technically get queens before hive, but at the time the first two queens hatch, the hive is morphing). Please show me a game that shows otherwise. The two most famous Great ZvZ games. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/42444_great_vs_Neo.G_Soulkey/vod http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/43801_great_vs_ZerO/vod Fast third, early hydras, later hive. As for the Great vs. Zero game, it's pretty obvious just from watching the game who knew what to do in the post-muta unconventional meltdown. Zero carried on with the conventional ZvZ play longer than Great did, and once it reached the meltdown period Great was just playing much smoother. There really is nothing that suggests that Zero knew prior to that game vs. Great what to do when the mutaling + support doesn't work anymore more than the average progamer Zerg. As for Zero there are definitely some games where he only gets queens without getting a hive at all or until much later (check some of his matchpoint games). I'm too lazy to find these for you too. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
I double checked all of zero's ZvZ on match point, and there is only one with queen vs type-b (which I noted in OP) and Zero still got devourers shortly after the queens. There was one without a vod, but I remember that that was the game that zero proxy hatched in hyuk's main (such an awesomely gutsy play). So unfortunately I can not find the games you seem to remember. I appreciate you pointing out my mistake in saying EVERY game, but I stand by the trends I outlined | ||
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ZBiR
Poland1092 Posts
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