*SPOILER* I assume most people know how the Ro8 ended, but If you still want to be surprised, stop reading
With midterms done, I wanted to spend a little time breaking down the unknown territory that is Hive tech ZvZ (sorry Jaedong and Hydra fans, but this is going to be all about Zero and Great). I. Trends II. Unit roles III. Application prediction IV. afterthoughts I Trends I wanted to find some commonalities in Great and Zero’s hive games. Zero and Great both have played 4 such games (3-1 records) with great winning their head to head matchup. What is interesting is that in Greats games, he was the one who went for hive tech first (which from now on will be referred to as “the instigator” from now on because instigator is a cool word and because it is a lot easier to say than “the one who went for hive tech first”) only once, and that was the game he lost. Here is a list of the games I looked at for reference + Show Spoiler +
Winner loser instigator map Zero Roro Zero Polaris rhapsody Zero type-B Zero match point Zero hoejja Zero empire of the sun Great Zero Zero Triatholon Great soulkey soulkey grandline Great soulkey soulkey Circuit Breaker Jaedong Great Great Medusa
Trend 1: The instigator always has an economic BO advantage In all seven games, the instigator either had a 12 pool vs 9 pool or a 12 hatch vs 12 pool (one case of 12hatch vs 9 pool, but since he survived, he still had an economic advantage). This makes sense; the player with more money is able to get away with cutting mutalisks to get the nest+hive+greater spire. So the question is: can we see in instigation with the same BO, or even a BO loss? I don’t think so. The tech already sacrifices nearly 1000 resources, which is 5 mutalisks. Adding that you will need 2 spores per base, we are now down 7. We could compensate by only building spores, but then a control group of lings will win the game.
Trend 2: the instigator will attack with about 2 control groups of lings and fail. This was personally the most surprising trend, and it happened in every game with the exception of Zero vs. Great. I also want to include the trend “the instigator will always have a later spire (and in most cases a lot later),” but its factors in here. When the instigator sees his BO win, the thought process goes something like this “I have the BO advantage, so I should be in a good spot. My enemy has started his lair before me, so I can either abandon the advantage and try to play catch up tech wise, or I can just attack now with my two hatcheries against his one.” This can work in other games and just win outright, but because all of these games didn’t end fast, we only see the failures. Our instigator is now severely behind in tech and is forced to get spores as the only form of tier 1 anti-air (ignoring hydralisks for now). He could tech up, power more drones (he still has the eco advantage) and eventually catch up, but the other option is to just accept that he won’t be able to get the same number of mutas for a while and find other ways to equalize.
Trend 3: an unsupported mutalisk force never beats a supported one Specifically we are talking about queens and devourers. The “why” for this one is obvious, but it can be surprising just how much a couple of queens can compensate for. In the most extreme example 12 mutas, a queen and 2 devourers beat 30 mutalisks (with equal scourge numbers.) It also means that the not instigator is forced to either follow the instigator in tech, or try to win immediately.
Trend 4: The winner always has more bases. The exceptions to this were Zero vs Hoejja and zero vs roro. Again why the person with more bases wins is obvious, but the question is not “why does the person with fewer bases lose,” but, “why does the winner need more bases to win?” And the answer is they don’t. We will talk a bit more about this later, but in most of the games the winner takes more bases to finish off a game they are winning already. II Units The rolls of zerg units in the is matchups are murky due to the lack of examples, so let’s try to add a bit of clarity. drone Starting off simple. The drone’s role only changes from a poor fighter vs zerglings in the early game to no combat use at all later on. overlord Again, a simple unit, but the overlord severs a lot of minor roles beyond its primary function. The overlord provides an easy and invincible scout in the early game (duh). In the mid game it serves as a meat shield in muta battles. While mutalisks will naturaly target other combat units, the splash damage does not. Every shot the overlord takes is a shot that a mutalisk didn’t take. If the overlord takes 150 damage, than that is at least one mutalisk saved, but as far as we know could be 3 mutalisks with 50 health each. As we move to the late game, overlords are needed for detection vs lurkers. They can also drop, but there was only one game with drops, so we’ll ignore this for now. zergling Oh the zergling. It does everything for zerg short of flying. It serves the high dps role of the marine, the protect the ranged unit role of the zealot, the minefield/tank fire drawing role of the zealot, and even the “oh shit I’m losing bad, let’s just send some guys into their base and hope they don’t notice” role of the DT. That’s not to mention that they cost 25 minerals each and can transform into a cloud that makes your units invincible to most others. Specific to this MU, The zergling a los forces the opponent to play more cautiously. You can have map control with a large air force, but it’s a different kind of map control compared to a mech push. While the air force can easily counter a large scale attack, two packs of six zerglings each presents a unique problem. If they are sent to attack different locations, then the opponent is forced to either have already set up defenses (costly, susceptible to run bys and unusable if the enemy isn’t brought to it) or the air force must split (results can be catastrophic is half of the larger air force is attacked by the entire smaller one). The zerglings force caution, and can severely punish over aggression. Mutalisk The other staple of the MU. Oddly, there is little to say about such a fundamental unit. They harshly counter everything below it on the tech tree, and get harshly countered by almost everything above it. There fast, fragile (which can be compensated for through stacking), and have reasonable attack in sufficient numbers. But we all know this. As the game progressive, they lose their effectiveness as devourers, swarm, ensnare and plague dramatically reduce their ability. scourge Their role is similar to the mutalisk in that it shrinks rapidly, but even more so. Once the mutalisk numbers start to get above 25, we see “corsair syndrome” where the scourge just all die before they can attack. The numbers required to attack would not only not be cost effective, but also take super human APM to clone. After the battle moves to the ground, however, they can have a role similar to their role in ZvT: trying to snipe queens and guardians that stray a bit too far from the main force. It is worth noting that in great’s game vs Jaedong, he used scourge to kill overlords. He may have been trying to set up the lurkers he was teching to, or he might have been trying to supply block JD so he could tech safely tech. Either way, its intriguing. Ultimately he lost, but, hey, it was against Jaedong. Who can blame him? queen Of all the units in Broodwar, the queen keeps me up the most at night thinking “there has to be a better way to use these.” Luckily, Zero shares my sentiments, and has been trying to answer the question of how to use them right for the past year. Since there is no holy world in the map pool, we only have to worry about 3 abilities: ensnare parasite, and broodling. The fact that melee units don’t bunch well means that ensnare only works on the mutalisk flocks, but oh is it powerful. Want to engage but have fewer mutalisks than your opponent? POW ensnare just effectively took out 18 percent of them (not to mention that they can’t muta micro any more) Won the battle, and now they are retreating? POW ensnare allows you to clean those game-changing six mutalisks up. Did he just reinforce his mutalisk force? POW ensnare allows for a clean escape. Is his muta micro too gosu for your scourge? POW now he can have all the apm in the world and your scourge will still kill him. Broodling has been suggested as an equivalent to irradiate, and that a late game ZvZ could see clouds of queens in similar fashion (see P.S.). I think that broodling can take on that role, but having a cloud of queens is overkill. That many queens is not necessary (a) because the zerg will never hit 200/200 like it can frequently in TvZ (b) due to the spread out nature of lings, lurkers lose a lot of effectiveness, and do not need to be feared to the same extent and (c) because we do not have the massive M&M ball, zerglings can pick off hanging defilers quite effectively. The only thing that the queens should be overly concerned about is the ultralisks, and the 2-3 that are left over from the air battle I think can be sufficient. The last ability, parasite, is a bit of a mystery to me. I (and dare I say no one who will ever read this) will know how helpful that scouting information can be to a progamer. Yes it provides info, but don’t progamers understand what is going on without that information? And don’t they have other scouting methods that don’t waste APM or energy? Zero did use a few of them against great, so there is some value. I guess I feel that they just aren’t worth it especially when considering that the zerg units are just so cheap. And if the queen finds an expensive unit, it would be better of just killing it. Devourer The devourer, like ensnare, turns unfortunate battles into victories. I encourage everyone who doesn’t understand the acid attack of the devourer to check the liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Devourer (go ahead, no one will think any less of you ) The devourer is the last thing seen before the player switches to the ground, so their role is limited, but if the opponent does not either switch to the ground or get devoureres of their own, their fate is all but sealed. Guardians The Guardian has the same role as they do in ZvT: a quick way to throw away all of your gas and shortly after lose an unexpected change of pace that can potentially kill all workers and cripple the tech tree if not dealt with. I don’t like them personally, and would favor teching do defilers instead. I can almost see them like carriers, staying out of range of the hydraliks and slowly whittling down the numbers. The problem is that carriers don’t have to deal with the smaller range, lower health, lack of an air attack, swarms, and less speed (I think). Soulkey was the only one who used them (in the circuit breaker game), and I admit they did do a lot but I think that they are a mistake to use. Hydralisk Hydralisk are terrible. They do half damage to zerglings, half damage to mutalisks, have the potential to be utterly decimated by guardians (again see soulkey’s usage of how to do it right and great of how to counter it wrong) and are helpless to zerglings and ultralisks that are under swarm. Then why are they so utterly important? Because they are the only thing zerg has that can attack air while under the protection of the swarm. The ensnare, devourers, and plague do a lot to force the transition from air to ground, but having invincible units that can attack you makes it compulsory. But after the mutalisk flock is gone, there is no good reason to use them. Great begs to disagree, and produces them as his first hive unit every time. Its hard to argue with him, considering that the one hive game he lost was against Jaedong, and was killed before actually producing any units. But considering how little they do vs zerglings, and how swam makes them useless, I don’t understand his love for them.
EDIT: There has been some confusion on my stance on the hydralisk. Let me reiterate: THE HYDRALISK, WHEN COUPLED WITH SWARM, IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN MOVING THE BATTLE FROM AIR TO GROUND. The distaste I express towards them is after the opponent has moved to an ultralurkerling style army. Hydralisks are bad at combating lurkers (think of them as expensive marines) and the fact that they take 8 shots to kill a zergling means they cant fight them either. I guess that they could take on an army of pure ultra rather cost effectively, but that is unrealistic. And this is all even before swarm. Once swarm hits, the hydralisks have no value in the ground battle. So the hydralisk is very valuable in the small window where you opponent has no ground army, but are not worth it after that. Great has the right idea of using the hydralisks to counter Soulkey's and zero's mutalisk clouds, but once each of them switches to a ground army, it is my belief that Great should stop hydralisk production, which he never does. Lurker The lurker is what I am least sure of in this MU. They can’t fight air, so we can only look at how they fight against ground units. Ultralisks just ignore them. Hydralisks just die, but hydralisks are terrible, and everything kills them as long as they don’t have swarm (and then just most things kill them). I question how good they are vs zerg lings. First thought is “attacking a lot of little units with splash? Only two hits kill one? They sound like a perfect counter! But we have to consider that zerglings do not bunch u-p the same way as marines do, and with good splits, they start to only hit 2-3 per attack. Also consider that they cost lots of gas that could be used on ultras or defilers. In the games they seem to do enough, but I’m just no convinced. In my eyes, I think that the ideal use of them is to morph them after you are done with the terrible hydralisks (I kinda like just adding “terrible in front of the hydralisks, so I will for the rest of this), then place them strategically with some defending bases and some with the main army, mostly to force the use of detectors. But as I said, they might be a staple to the ground army. ultralisk Not much to say on this front either. Ultarlisks tank damage so the lings don’t. Once the defiler/lurker tech is up they can be a nice addition to push the army over the top. The only game with ultras was zero vs great, and I found the ultra:ling ratio to be terrible, like 1:3. I guess it could have something to do with the abundance of lurkers, but I don’t think it is something to take terribly seriously. defiler And the defiler. Arguably the most powerful two spells in the game to have for the matchup (although maelstrom and either storm or irradiate would be rather scary), and consume to boot. The defilers (with the terrible hydralisk) take the mutas out of the sky, and the defilers allow defensive positions to be established that wouldn’t otherwise be possible. It is interesting that every time defiler tech is reached, there are always double mounds. It seems extreme at first, but considering its only an extra 100/100 to get consume and plague that quickly, it made me wonder why zerg doesn’t do it in other matchups. I then realized that plague isn’t that good against the other races. The only other thing I want to bring up is what day[9] once said about how to properly plague in ZvZ. It was in one of his dailies if you want it in audio, and articulated better. He talked about how when you should plague isn’t before the engagement, or even during. If you engage then retreat, the enemy will pursue and stack up as tightly as they ever will (assuming were at the point where we have more than 1 control group so the stacking method is obsolete) and then you plague. I thought that was a cool idea, although I didn’t see it in the games. III Application A recap of how hive ZvZ should look: One player gets an economic advantage, but has slow mutalisks. He defends himself by spring his natural and main. Instead of just making mutalisks, he decides to tech. The opponent fears the tech, and is forced to tech himself. The game moves into muta flock vs muta flock with queen and devourer support. One player realizes that they won’t win that kind of fight, and switches to defiler tech. Once that player gets a good number of defilers and terrible hydralisks, the other one will, in turn, be forced to move to the ground. Then we get ultralurkerling vs ultralurkerling, and we get all the strategic elements of TvT, without the half hour of posturing. So, what was the point of everything I’ve written? It’s so we can look at trends to make some predictions. Before we jump into the games, I need to address a discrepancy. Those who have watched the games and those who picked up on the discrepancy while reading might ask, “wait, the way you described you “ideal” evolution of the game, and how you described the unit’s roles does not match up with great’s style. He won 3 of four and beat zero using the progression you described. What up with that?” Yes Zero uses the strategy I described (that makes it sound like I’m Zero’s mentor doesn’t it. I guess I should say “I described the strategy Zero uses”) and yes he was beaten by great and his terrible hydralisks. The reason that Great won is he treated it as a modern game of starcraft. I’m going to compare it to a starcraft game in 2003 between a veteran (like Boxer) and Great is like a young hot shot (like Iloveoov). Boxer is experimenting with a young game making new exciting unit compositions while Iloveoov says “fuck it, I’m just gonna get a bunch of bases and kill you”. And that’s what Great did. He remembered that this still is starcraft and macroing and expanding are just as (and probably more) important than the micro and unit composition. Zero did expand in his wins, but he did it against weaker competition, and less vigorously than Great did. (for the record that’s not supposed to be derogatory towards any of the four players mentioned I have re3pect for all of these guys, and Boxer and Iloveoov are my favorite two retired starcraft players)
So when we look at the maps, we are looking for 2 things. (1) There is a long rush distance so that early ling pressure won’t win outright. (2) There must be a super easy third gas or a super hard third gas to take * (3) There are relatively few expansions *Ok that sounds weird. If there is a super hard third to take (like say aztec) , zero can prevent it, and great will be forced into a 2 base game vs someone who understands the matchup better. If the third is super easy to take (like a double nat map), then zero will be able to secure it easily and will still be able to compete economically with great.
So, here we go:
Circuit Breaker Zero < Great There has already been a hive game on this map, and that’s as good of an indicator as any that there might be another. That third is a bit more than a hop, skip , and a jump away from the natural, but is it unrealistically far? I think that if we go hive here, Great can find a way to secure it, and win the macro game.
Triathlon Zero < Great The site of hive ZvZ game that they had before. This map does have the double expo I described earlier, but there are just so many expos. While Zero can get up to 3 bases, great can get 4 or 5. Great takes set 2
Dante’s Peak Zero>Great The location of the third is similar to circuit breaker, but the difference is that you can’t choose one of two equally far away gases, and that is just difficult enough to say that Zero can stop it.
Benzene Zero>Great The third is so far away here. Great is going to have a bear of a time securing that, especially considering he abandons air fast. Zero equalizes.
Circuit Breaker Zero>Great I could copy paste my first one, or I could say that zero figures out what he did wrong and adjusts. Zero takes it with his awesome queen usage.
It should be said that there is no reason to think that there will be 5 hive games. So many things have to go right. First Zero (considering that great is reactant in all of his games) must want to instigate, then there must be a BO win for Zero, then great must decide that he doesn’t want to muta all in when he sees zero going for a hive (he probably won’t, its mostly the first two). But hey, this would be rather short if we just said that there will be no hive, and just flip a coin five times right? IV Afterthoughts While watching the games I thought of a few things that I would like to see in the MU.
1. Drops. Zero did one of these and it worked brilliantly, I’m not sure why it didn’t happen in other games. Cracklings have ridiculously high DPS, and they are dirt cheap. Couple that with the fact that Zerg bases are significantly smaller than terran or protoss ones (only 2 factories (hatcheries) and no depots). It can easily take out the workers (which is even scarier in ZvZ because you can’t produce drones and units at the same time) and can definitely destroy a tech tree. And it is just so cheap.
2. Burrow. I think that this has a lot of potential. It can save drones from a ling run by. It can hide defilers that get separated from the main army. It can set up ambushes (like either the terrible hydralisk ambushes on shuttles, or ambushes on mutalisk packs with defilers (like in the day[9] trick I talked about earlier). It can set up zerg scouts to see where large mutalisk flocks are. It can deny expansions. At the very least it will force your opponent to get overlord speed, which costs more than burrow did. And that’s it. Thanks for reading PS:+ Show Spoiler +
The tech already sacrifices nearly 1000 resources, which is 5 mutalisks.
Uhh
Still reading.
This is correct, though.
I found your in-depth analysis of the games very interesting, and not many people have talked about the driving factors towards what makes a game go to hive-tech. What I think would be very interesting would be a discussion of when it's a good idea to go hive-tech. Like you said, the instigator always had an economic advantage... but if you have sufficient spores up and better economy than the opponent, can't you just make more mutas faster than them, eventually catching up? Seems like the person with lesser economy is the one who needs to look at alternatives while they still have map control, whether it be expanding or teching up to the lategame ZvZ tech.
The tech already sacrifices nearly 1000 resources, which is 5 mutalisks.
Uhh
Still reading.
This is correct, though.
I found your in-depth analysis of the games very interesting, and not many people have talked about the driving factors towards what makes a game go to hive-tech. What I think would be very interesting would be a discussion of when it's a good idea to go hive-tech. Like you said, the instigator always had an economic advantage... but if you have sufficient spores up and better economy than the opponent, can't you just make more mutas faster than them, eventually catching up? Seems like the person with lesser economy is the one who needs to look at alternatives while they still have map control, whether it be expanding or teching up to the lategame ZvZ tech.
yes, they could. In most situations they do, which is why hive is so rare. It takes a special mind set to decide that the higher tech is the better option (which I'm guessing comes from practice). Its why only a few player are know for hive, and the majority have never played a televised one.
The one who is behind can't tech, because they will still be behind as long as they don't have the economy. Sure they'll have devourers for a minute before their opponent, but the opponent can just dodge until they even the tech.
Hydralisks are not terrible and lurkers are surprisingly good. Until muta stacking became so damn good, hydra/lurker actually could be used effectively in ZvZ if coming from an economic advantage. These days of course it's suicide to open hydras, but they still present a strong late game option for support. It's not just about dark swarm. It's about ensnare. It's about plague. It's about devourers. In hive tech ZvZ, there are just too damn many things that can go wrong with your air. Hydras in combination with your muta flock are a great way to solidify defenses and create a strong army that can push hard. Lurkers have exactly two units they are meant to counter: lings and hydras. The hydra case only really comes into play if your opponent adds them, but the ling case is very important. Ling backstabs are a great way to keep your opponent on his toes. 1-2 well placed lurkers will basically nullify that threat. At first glance this may seem like a waste of much needed gas, but in truth, late game ZvZ the exact size of your muta flock stops mattering. Getting off that ensnare or that plague or having the correct ratio of devourer to muta is much, much more important than your exact muta count.
If you wanted more examples of ZerO's hive tech ZvZ I think you left out ZerO vs Hyun during the Stars vs MBC match during this past summer Stx masters. (I don't know where the vod is for that but yeah a lot of ZerO's trends you talked about can be seen in that game, as well as the problems of hydralisks in this MU.)
Cool read and it gets an extra auto-thumbs up from me for the ZerO win predicted! Lololol
On February 07 2011 15:05 puppykiller wrote: Maybe this has convinced me to stay up for the match... but then again the games could easily not go late game
Do it. Zero vs Great Bo5 may never happen again (and that's not hyperbole. Odds are that this will, in-fact, never happen again). Even if its terrible, it will make the next good one all the better.
Great post, thanks for the thought! I'm really excited for this ro4! hive tech ZvZ is a whole nother game. I don't even know how much thought the pros have put into it.
You played a really great match on set 4. There wasn't a moment I thought I was behind during set 4. I saw my opponent produce Queens, and if it was any other player they may have been nervous, but at least on our team, Jihyun hyung has been experimenting with stuff like this for about two to three years so I didn't have any problems. I knew how to deal with them quite well so I laughed the moment I saw queens.
What's your secret to dealing with them? The key point was going towards a more defensive play the moment I saw Queens while I was on the offensive. I produced Drones and prepared Hydras. The second I saw Queens, I was preparing for a halfway battle, but my opponent started attacking me first.
Thing is, ZerO is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZerO decides not to go a hive game and finish right away. Comparing ZerO's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZerO.
EDIT: Fixed tlpds. I have no friggin idea how tlpd understood a sc2 terran by the word zero in BW forums.
On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote: Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
Great article, looking forward to both ZvZ series.
On February 07 2011 14:19 hacklebeast wrote: zergling Oh the zergling. It does everything for zerg short of flying. It serves the high dps role of the marine, the protect the ranged unit role of the zealot, the minefield/tank fire drawing role of the zealot, and even the “oh shit I’m losing bad, let’s just send some guys into their base and hope they don’t notice” role of the DT. That’s not to mention that they cost 25 minerals each and can transform into a cloud that makes your units invincible to most others.
On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote: Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
Wow this is an awesome analysis! I actually dont mind the ro4 so much because of the split the way it does. On one side is good mechanics and on the other side, fucked up late game ZvZ
also interesting how great never instigates (except against jaedong) Also having queens and devourers dominate that much more is so surprising O_O
some things to mention: when parasited the other guy always kills the unit. (like the mutalisk thats parasited)
nice analysis add some pictures and this would be even better! its surpising i read the whole thing ^^
On February 07 2011 17:19 hacklebeast wrote: I JUST REALIZED THAT I PUT RO8 NOT R04
damn it
you know whats worse...none of us pointed that out
Haha exactly. I was half confused at first, but I got lost in the nice article to really dwell on that trifle. Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote: Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead
Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!!
On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote: Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead
Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!!
Why do you hate hydras? It is the lynchpin unit that makes Hive ZvZ possible. It forces the battle down and with good control would be terrible for mutadevourer.
On February 07 2011 21:02 whiterabb1t wrote: Mods please? And perhaps Spotlight? And why is this still on 2 pages? No one has nothing to say on BW strategy anymore? This has got to be one of the most "discussable" articles on BW strategy ever.
Something tells me that Great will go for a surprise Mutaling bust in a couple of games or so, especially since Zero expects him to go Hive. This is seriously an event of its own, never has and never will happen again. Two of the most creative zerg players on BO5!
A more likely reason that this only has two pages is that I posted it when most of team liquid was a sleep. It's a little early to declare that BW strategy discussion is dead
Who ever the mod was that changed the title, thank you!!
Why do you hate hydras? It is the lynchpin unit that makes Hive ZvZ possible. It forces the battle down and with good control would be terrible for mutadevourer.
I expressed that they are essential for moving the battle from ground to air, I was just trying to show that I felt Great's strategy was flawed. The explosive damage just makes them garbage for fighting against lings, and they can’t fight lurkers or ultralisk, especially with swarm They can't even serve their primary role (as a hard counter to mutalisks) without defilers and the high APM to use them corectly, again due to the explosive damage. After a while I just liked adding "terrible" in front of hydralisk whether it made sense contextually or not.
Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote: Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
Poor Zero, overshadowed by some 0-2 SC2 player. The TLPD-ize function is becoming less useful by the day
On February 07 2011 23:45 Mortality wrote: Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling.
On February 07 2011 20:04 Djagulingu wrote: Thing is, ZeRo is much better in traditional zvz than great and this fact may Actually disappoint you in ro4 if ZeRo decides not to go a hive and finish right away. Comparing ZeRo's traditional early-mid zvz and muta control with great's will be an insult to ZeRo.
Poor Zero, overshadowed by some 0-2 SC2 player. The TLPD-ize function is becoming less useful by the day
Even worse, tlpd-ize function understands the word zero written in BW forums as an insignificant sc2 player instead of one of my favorite players (after SKT Zergs ofc )
One of the ZerO vs Great games they both seemed to be intent on Lurker/swarm as the game changing unit. To become invincible vs anything except Ultralisks is certainly quite good, if you imagine having them backed with with lings from the probable mineral surplus you'll have. So i certainly think you underestimate them. The only true 100% counter to it is broodling, but you can probably make more lurkers and more swarms/lings/defilers by the time theres enough energy for enough broodlings.
The whole queen swarm concept is a really interesting idea that would be awesome to see. Instant sniping of defilers with broodling could render the lurkers fairly useless in the first place, so hydra/queen with good micro and retreating when needed could work instead. It's just a shame hydras are just generally a bit crap vs every unit except lurker and i suppose ultra. Parasite is pretty cheap and probably quite annoying if you parasite ultras. I noticed it seemed like Great decided to sunk/spore up the naturals like crazy like in a ZvP lategame, makes sense too, i think mass hydra/dropping would be better than throwing ling/ultra at a choke like that.
The whole lategame matchup is really interesting and unexplored, it's a shame there's not a map which somehow makes it standardized without affecting balance on other matchups (good luck trying to do that!). Unfortunately i have a feeling this whole RO4 is going to turn out to be typical ZvZ with no one wanting to go for the Hive unless forced into it or far ahead. Unless Jaedong has found an ultimate new ZvZ build skipping mutas for Queen/Scourge and ensnaring and killing off whole flocks with crazy micro skills :D
Interesting analysis, but I'm wondering how many of the games will actually get to hive tech, if any. The whole post reminded me of those super complex scientific theories that only work under a very specific set of conditions: "If A and B and C and D are true, then we MAY see cool phenomenon X." I would absolutely love it if we saw multiple hive games (especially since I'll be casting this live), but I won't hold my breath.
threads like this compound why I love BW so much.. its so FUCKING AMAZING
EDIT: Thanks for the epic write-up and adding to the hype of the upcoming ZvZs. I personally am very excited for the matches and although I feel like ZvZs can be somewhat repetitious as far as BOs, and they're generally over after the first big battle (sounds like sc2? lol), that they're an intense micro battle which I find amazing
I'm not so sure that there's a way of predicting whether the game will go to Hive tech other than 1) looking at the Spore count and 2) Looking at mistakes that either player made. The entire reason why ZvZ games always end in the midgame is because the +1 Mutalisk+Scourge timing is so devastating against any player trying to Hive tech. There's just no way to stop it without building a bunch of Spores, but no one would reasonably build Spores in the first place unless he was behind by a ton, because then the other player just out expands the Spore-building player and wins. The reason why the person is behind might vary a bit, but Hive tech ZvZ is a rare occurrence for a reason.
Also, I'd just like to echo the general resentment against your treatment of the Hydralisk. They're far more crucial to the Hive tech transition than you might think, because the Spore building means that you don't need as much larva for Mutas, which means more Drones, thus more minerals, thus Hydras are a better option because of sheer production capability. They're also far better than Mutas when combined with Zerglings at holding the line during attacks than you give them credit for.
On February 08 2011 05:23 Mystlord wrote: I'm not so sure that there's a way of predicting whether the game will go to Hive tech other than 1) looking at the Spore count and 2) Looking at mistakes that either player made. The entire reason why ZvZ games always end in the midgame is because the +1 Mutalisk+Scourge timing is so devastating against any player trying to Hive tech. There's just no way to stop it without building a bunch of Spores, but no one would reasonably build Spores in the first place unless he was behind by a ton, because then the other player just out expands the Spore-building player and wins. The reason why the person is behind might vary a bit, but Hive tech ZvZ is a rare occurrence for a reason.
Also, I'd just like to echo the general resentment against your treatment of the Hydralisk. They're far more crucial to the Hive tech transition than you might think, because the Spore building means that you don't need as much larva for Mutas, which means more Drones, thus more minerals, thus Hydras are a better option because of sheer production capability. They're also far better than Mutas when combined with Zerglings at holding the line during attacks than you give them credit for.
I thought that too when I first started to watch the games, but they seem to suggest other wise. As I said, the instigator had an economic lead every time that hive tech was achieved, and were only lacking in tech with a later spire. having the other player just expand while you tech is a real threat and did happen in most of the game (I can't remember how many off the top of my head but I'm guessing 4-5). And that expansion did win the game for Great a few time, but zero was able to counter it by allowing it to establish and then just killing it with a superior air force in his games.
And I am going to edit the OP about the hydralisk. I did say that they were the most important part (when coupled with swarm) in bringing the battle to the ground, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. I can see how you would end up with more minerals, but investing those in zerglings or another hatch is a better option. I agree that they are better than mutalisks at holding a position. They are also better than drones scourge on overlords. But it is not the role of those four units to hold lines, and ultralurkerling is a far better option, even before adding swarm.
On February 07 2011 23:45 Mortality wrote: Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling.
We must be talking about different things since you're bringing up BGH.
In Hive tech ZvZ situations (which I already said...) you don't want to try to get too cute with muta micro against hydras because of ensnare and plague, not to mention that muta flocks start becoming a little difficult even for progamers to manage in late game situations (see Yellow vs Jaedong -- I almost though Yellow was going to throw his victory with the way his muta flocks kept coming apart). I already said in my first post that muta stacking has made a hydra opening suicidal, but I guess you weren't paying attention. Until muta stacking, it was actually still viable even at A rank level on PGTour (as Day[9] proved by actually doing it and by other top players like Xiaozi and Satanik who frequently used them against top foreigners), but these days I do not think it is. But even when it was viable, your notion about how muta vs hydra plays out seems to be based on D rank knowledge. You're going to keep your hydras tight to your base and have some vision outside of them so that you can react in time if mutas start moving in. It's really not hard.
Also, yes until you get upgrades hydras are difficult, but if you're using them heavily you will OBVIOUSLY upgrade them. If you're planning on using them in a hive tech situation, you may even start on upgrades before even making any hydras. And unless he's been matching upgrades with his lings (and if he's been concentrating on his muta flock then he hasn't) and you've been failing to use terrain advantageously and attacking at the wrong timings, hydras are going to be hell on wheels for him to deal with.
But even if we are talking early game -- which, again, you would not be inclined to do against modern micro -- you would only go hydras in a situation where you have an economic advantage. He's going to rush for lair tech because any competent Zerg knows that if your build is economically disadvantageous you need lair tech first. And while he's doing that, you're going to be thinking "fuck mutas" and ignoring it completely, starting upgrades on hydras as soon as you plop down your evo chamber, upgrading carapace first because it makes it much more difficult for mutas and lings to hurt your hydras.
As for hydras being a muscle unit... the definition of muscle unit has nothing to do with 1-1 attack strength and everything to do with how you use them. There's a huge distinction there that you ought to familiarize yourself with.
On February 07 2011 23:45 Mortality wrote: Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling.
We must be talking about different things since you're bringing up BGH.
In Hive tech ZvZ situations (which I already said...) you don't want to try to get too cute with muta micro against hydras because of ensnare and plague, not to mention that muta flocks start becoming a little difficult even for progamers to manage in late game situations (see Yellow vs Jaedong -- I almost though Yellow was going to throw his victory with the way his muta flocks kept coming apart). I already said in my first post that muta stacking has made a hydra opening suicidal, but I guess you weren't paying attention. Until muta stacking, it was actually still viable even at A rank level on PGTour (as Day[9] proved by actually doing it and by other top players like Xiaozi and Satanik who frequently used them against top foreigners), but these days I do not think it is. But even when it was viable, your notion about how muta vs hydra plays out seems to be based on D rank knowledge. You're going to keep your hydras tight to your base and have some vision outside of them so that you can react in time if mutas start moving in. It's really not hard.
Also, yes until you get upgrades hydras are difficult, but if you're using them heavily you will OBVIOUSLY upgrade them. If you're planning on using them in a hive tech situation, you may even start on upgrades before even making any hydras. And unless he's been matching upgrades with his lings (and if he's been concentrating on his muta flock then he hasn't) and you've been failing to use terrain advantageously and attacking at the wrong timings, hydras are going to be hell on wheels for him to deal with.
But even if we are talking early game -- which, again, you would not be inclined to do against modern micro -- you would only go hydras in a situation where you have an economic advantage. He's going to rush for lair tech because any competent Zerg knows that if your build is economically disadvantageous you need lair tech first. And while he's doing that, you're going to be thinking "fuck mutas" and ignoring it completely, starting upgrades on hydras as soon as you plop down your evo chamber, upgrading carapace first because it makes it much more difficult for mutas and lings to hurt your hydras.
As for hydras being a muscle unit... the definition of muscle unit has nothing to do with 1-1 attack strength and everything to do with how you use them. There's a huge distinction there that you ought to familiarize yourself with.
You've been talking about early game hydras? At least I think you've been talking about early game.
I think we are in agreement. Hydras are a stupid idea in the early game (they might have been viable years ago, but we are talking about zero vs great, so it is irrelevant), and mutalisks lose effectiveness when there are too many to properly micro.
although I am still confused by your definition of a "muscle unit". please enlighten me.
Great writeup but I think you severely underestimate the hydralisk in this matchup. Gas wise, they murder anything else save the zergling in which, they can easily transition into a hard counter for as well. You cannot fight hydralisks with mutas head on. It is a flat out losing battle. Mutalings beat hydras not from hard dps (though in smaller numbers, mutalings have advantage) but from mobility.
On February 07 2011 23:45 Mortality wrote: Hydras are not supposed to be a "hard counter" to anything. They are a gas cheap all-purpose muscle unit and very good at being that. They don't require high apm to use. If anything, controlling mutas in hive tech ZvZ battle is much more intensive.
I'm starting to think we are talking about different things. Yes they are relatively cheap and yes they require low APM to use. I agree that in low level games that they can be effective if you opponent has bad micro (I use them almost exclusively when I random into zerg on BGH.) That said, In high level games they rapidly lose effectiveness why your opponent can skillfully maneuver mutalisk flocks and use swarm properly. And I would contest that they aren't much of a "muscle unit" when it takes 8 shots to kill a zergling.
We must be talking about different things since you're bringing up BGH.
In Hive tech ZvZ situations (which I already said...) you don't want to try to get too cute with muta micro against hydras because of ensnare and plague, not to mention that muta flocks start becoming a little difficult even for progamers to manage in late game situations (see Yellow vs Jaedong -- I almost though Yellow was going to throw his victory with the way his muta flocks kept coming apart). I already said in my first post that muta stacking has made a hydra opening suicidal, but I guess you weren't paying attention. Until muta stacking, it was actually still viable even at A rank level on PGTour (as Day[9] proved by actually doing it and by other top players like Xiaozi and Satanik who frequently used them against top foreigners), but these days I do not think it is. But even when it was viable, your notion about how muta vs hydra plays out seems to be based on D rank knowledge. You're going to keep your hydras tight to your base and have some vision outside of them so that you can react in time if mutas start moving in. It's really not hard.
Also, yes until you get upgrades hydras are difficult, but if you're using them heavily you will OBVIOUSLY upgrade them. If you're planning on using them in a hive tech situation, you may even start on upgrades before even making any hydras. And unless he's been matching upgrades with his lings (and if he's been concentrating on his muta flock then he hasn't) and you've been failing to use terrain advantageously and attacking at the wrong timings, hydras are going to be hell on wheels for him to deal with.
But even if we are talking early game -- which, again, you would not be inclined to do against modern micro -- you would only go hydras in a situation where you have an economic advantage. He's going to rush for lair tech because any competent Zerg knows that if your build is economically disadvantageous you need lair tech first. And while he's doing that, you're going to be thinking "fuck mutas" and ignoring it completely, starting upgrades on hydras as soon as you plop down your evo chamber, upgrading carapace first because it makes it much more difficult for mutas and lings to hurt your hydras.
As for hydras being a muscle unit... the definition of muscle unit has nothing to do with 1-1 attack strength and everything to do with how you use them. There's a huge distinction there that you ought to familiarize yourself with.
You've been talking about early game hydras? At least I think you've been talking about early game.
I think we are in agreement. Hydras are a stupid idea in the early game (they might have been viable years ago, but we are talking about zero vs great, so it is irrelevant), and mutalisks lose effectiveness when there are too many to properly micro.
although I am still confused by your definition of a "muscle unit". please enlighten me.
I've been talking about all aspects of hydra ZvZ. I mentioned early game a lot as well as late game.
A muscle unit is one you power up and shove directly down their throat. Lings aren't muscle units. You only shove them down your opponent's throat if you are going all-in on a ling break. Otherwise you're using them tactically. Harass, scout, punish him for spreading himself too thin, etc. Barring ling breaks, the closest they get to "muscle" is working in conjunction with other units like ling/lurk ZvT or ling/ultra ZvP, but without the combination their effectiveness decreases exponentially. And if your opponent knows you're using mass lings in mid/late game situations, just a couple of lurkers will completely destroy you. Mutas aren't designed to be a muscle unit but end up getting used as one anyway. They are built for harassment, but since air control is so central to ZvZ you end up powering them, which forces them to be your muscle unit. But they are still delicate. Queen ensnare, devourer acid spore, and defiler plague/swarm utterly cripple their effectiveness. In hive tech situations, you have to be really, really careful with them. Just clumping them into a ball and attack moving is so bad that you can get slaughtered by an army a fraction the size of yours.
Hydras are a muscle unit. In small numbers they suck. Same for goons with Protoss, another muscle unit. But an upgraded blob consisting of a sufficient number of hydras is a nightmare. Individually the damage isn't great against Zerg, but the relatively high HP, cheap cost, decent range and high rate of fire make them effective when powered. You'd be shocked, SHOCKED, by what a sufficient blob of hydras will do to mass ling, not even counting that if he's gone that tech route it's no sweat to add 2-3 lurkers to the mix. Trying to use swarm with lings will prevent you from using mutas, won't help if he tosses in lurkers, and ignores the speed at which hydras can retreat from swarm. The problem that Terrans have with swarm is that they need stim to escape it, but hydras are faster than unstimmed marines. And a single queen combined with his hydra blob will do a hell of a number on your mutas. He'll pretty much just walk over you with attack move... unless your economic position is truly superior. Queens effect muta rate of fire more than hydra rate of fire and ensnare grabs a lot more of them. Not to mention that plague grabs a lot more mutas than hydras as well and it's easier to protect your defilers with a hydra army and that dark swarm remains useful.
The biggest problem with hydras is that if you try to go them from the start then your opponent won't let you get critical mass until he's got a very strong economic position. As a transition unit in the hive tech game, this fatal flaw is not an issue. The catch is that you need to plan this transition so that upgrades occur at the correct timings.
I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on pre-hive tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best.
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals.
tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is wrong because his unique (early) switch to hydras if given the chance begins before he goes hive. This goes even with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before hive as well (although he's stopped doing this as often).
On February 08 2011 13:09 koreasilver wrote: I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on lair tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best.
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals.
tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is horribly wrong because his unique way of playing the matchup if given the chance begins before he goes hive. Same with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before lair as well (although he's stopped doing this as often).
It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly. I think that we can say that great's unconventional play is hive tech because he never gets den before hive, and starts to amass hydralisks. Every time Great built a den, he was simultaneously building two mounds. I truly think that defilers are necessary to use hydralisks. While great and zero are known for prehive units, there are still no examples of either using these units before hive. (zero does technically get queens before hive, but at the time the first two queens hatch, the hive is morphing). Please show me a game that shows otherwise
and to continue the conversation with Mortality: I'm still not sure about "muscle units" (buy that argument carriers are a muscle unit because you build them almost exclusively and then just go and kill a terran) but I feel that it is irrelevant to the discussion, so let's just drop it. Assuming we allow our opponent to build up a critical mass of hydralisks (unlikely), I think you are overlooking the power of the dark swarm. The lings don't need mutalisk support (by the time that the opponent gets this critical mass of hydralisk, the game is lost if you haven't transitioned to the ground, so I doubt that a substantial amount of the population will be tied up in the air anyway) if they are invincible while under the swarm. Yes the hydralisks can flee from the swarm, but they are slower than stimed marines, and we still see stimed marines get trapped under swarms consistently. And there is no way hydralisks are getting through a choke with a control group of cracklings and swarm. The defiler can even continuously replenish the swam because the natural hatchery is right next to it. Regardless of how many hydralisks, it just cant be done. I agree that lurkers can be scary, but we don't need a huge supply of hydralisks to morph 4 lurkers, just use them like in traditional ZvT.
On February 08 2011 13:09 koreasilver wrote: I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on lair tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best.
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals.
tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is horribly wrong because his unique way of playing the matchup if given the chance begins before he goes hive. Same with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before lair as well (although he's stopped doing this as often).
It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly.
iirc, in ZerO vs Hyun on fighting spirit, in response to ZerO's Muta Devourer Queen having moderate but not game winning success, Hyun abandons mutas and goes for hydras with late mounds. Instead of taking the fight to the ground, ZerO morphs guards and basically starts pushing towards Hyun's main/nat after many more skirmishes :u
Sigh. I don't know why you seem to think that hydras are this "hard counter" to mutas and that hydras force you to go ground. If you had any experience with them you would know that they counter pure ling more effectively than they counter pure muta, although neither is great against hydra. Just because on a small scale lings do well against hydras does not mean it holds true at a larger scale. The importance of understanding critical masses of units is vital to understanding this game. The correct counter to hydras is to rely on mobility to attain map control and then hit him with combined air/ground.
When hydras are being used as a transition unit, the picture changes since now you're trying to attain map control over a player who opened ling/muta and therefore shares your mobility and already has 2+ bases with moderate to high level drone saturation and minimum of 3 hatcheries. Dollar for dollar, hydras become incredibly valuable. Great knows this and it's a huge part of why his hive tech play is so damn good.
Ling/lurk/swarm is sure as fuck not a counter to it. Even ignoring the fact that he can make just 2-3 lurkers as support to completely counter your lings (and there's not a fucking thing you can do about it) you're already talking about giving up air control because of your nonsensical belief that hydras are a "hard counter" to mutas meaning he only needs 1 group of mutas to snipe your defilers, making them worthless except as what, a defensive unit? Not to mention that broodlings can be used against defilers and that he's likely to go queen anyway to help control the problem of your mutas. Hydras are not the counter to mutas -- spells are.
Not to mention... you're giving up map control to the player with hydras? Are you nuts? The key to hydras has always been to rely on mobility. For that you need both lings and mutas. If you have to think defensively against hydras, you've already lost.
On February 08 2011 13:09 koreasilver wrote: I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on lair tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best.
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals.
tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is horribly wrong because his unique way of playing the matchup if given the chance begins before he goes hive. Same with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before lair as well (although he's stopped doing this as often).
It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly.
iirc, in ZerO vs Hyun on fighting spirit, in response to ZerO's Muta Devourer Queen having moderate but not game winning success, Hyun abandons mutas and goes for hydras with late mounds. Instead of taking the fight to the ground, ZerO morphs guards and basically starts pushing towards Hyun's main/nat after many more skirmishes :u
Guards in conjunction with your usual ling/muta is the hive tech response to hydras. The problem with it is that it's very gas demanding and lings aren't valuable en masse.
I guess we just have a fundamental disagreement in the value of swarm. I think that swarms can be used to allow hydralisks to be a hard counter to mutalisks, and for lings to be able to clean up hydralisk packs. You don't seem to think that progamers can use them in these ways, and that a pack of mutalisks can snipe defilers unopposed. We also disagree on the value of lurkers as I believe there are things I can do against them with lurkerling (and ultra eventually).
Honestly, we don't seem to be getting anywhere. If you feel differently feel free to PM me, but there is nothing more I can say and I don't think you have anything else either.
On February 08 2011 13:09 koreasilver wrote: I would also like to note that Great's unconventional ZvZ style focuses far more heavily on lair tech than Zero. If you look at Great vs Zero and Great vs Soulkey it's completely glaring that Great invests into the hydra tech tree before going into hive compared to the more standard unconventional or super lategame ZvZ that goes into hive but still uses spire tech as its main force. This is the biggest thing that defines Great's ZvZ from the other Zergs. Zero's been playing around with Queens in ZvZ since Match Point pretty heavily (he is the Prince, after all), but his ZvZ has always still remained very conventional in mentality. The only person that really threw a curve ball in ZvZ away from the mutaling + devourer/defiler/queen hegemony is Great, and this is why Great's ZvZ is pretty damned interesting to watch if the game allows him to do what he does best.
I just have a feeling that the ZvZs aren't going to allow these things to happen during the semifinals.
tldr; calling Great's unconventional ZvZ as hive tech play is horribly wrong because his unique way of playing the matchup if given the chance begins before he goes hive. Same with Zero, as his main unique characteristic in ZvZ is that he gets queens pretty fast for ensnare, and this also usually happens before lair as well (although he's stopped doing this as often).
It is a bit premature to say that zero's play has "always still remained very conventional in mentality". I think zero knows how to move to the next step, but the devourer/queen keep winning the game for him. The one time that his opponent didn't roll over and die almost immediately was the game vs. Great, and we saw zero take the fight to the ground rather quickly. I think that we can say that great's unconventional play is hive tech because he never gets den before hive, and starts to amass hydralisks. Every time Great built a den, he was simultaneously building two mounds. I truly think that defilers are necessary to use hydralisks. While great and zero are known for prehive units, there are still no examples of either using these units before hive. (zero does technically get queens before hive, but at the time the first two queens hatch, the hive is morphing). Please show me a game that shows otherwise.
As for the Great vs. Zero game, it's pretty obvious just from watching the game who knew what to do in the post-muta unconventional meltdown. Zero carried on with the conventional ZvZ play longer than Great did, and once it reached the meltdown period Great was just playing much smoother. There really is nothing that suggests that Zero knew prior to that game vs. Great what to do when the mutaling + support doesn't work anymore more than the average progamer Zerg.
As for Zero there are definitely some games where he only gets queens without getting a hive at all or until much later (check some of his matchpoint games). I'm too lazy to find these for you too.
I was wrong about the den timing in the grand lime game. But considering that Great has a hive going as the first hydralisks pop in the zero game, I think it is close enough to say that the hydras are in tandem with the hive. So one out of four games great gets hydras significantly before defilers? I think I'll stick with the general statement that hydras need swarm, with there being one exception.
I double checked all of zero's ZvZ on match point, and there is only one with queen vs type-b (which I noted in OP) and Zero still got devourers shortly after the queens. There was one without a vod, but I remember that that was the game that zero proxy hatched in hyuk's main (such an awesomely gutsy play). So unfortunately I can not find the games you seem to remember.
I appreciate you pointing out my mistake in saying EVERY game, but I stand by the trends I outlined
I find it ridiculous that some people consider Zero to be better at standard ZvZ than great. Oh well, you will see. Also, the game great vs JD shouldn't really be counted for great as "gone hive and lost" because he was already on the losing end and turtling with spores and teching hive was his desperate try to come back. It didn't work out, as expected. I think he also had 1 more hive game when he lost - vs Modesty in the offline prelims (I don't see it in the TLPD though, maybe I mistaken a player), although I don't know anything more about it.
EPT
) The devourer is the last thing seen before the player switches to the ground, so their role is limited, but if the opponent does not either switch to the ground or get devoureres of their own, their fate is all but sealed.
